September 2003 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

unsinkable mast
by MC Carpenter 13 Sep '03

13 Sep '03

has anyone put poured foam in their mast to make it unsinkable

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Wet cockpit in M15
by Jon Martin 13 Sep '03

13 Sep '03

Well, first off thanks to those who have shared info with me - I've been out four times now, and things are getting better each time. I installed some cam cleats instead of the worn out jam cleats for the jib sheets, and it made sailing much more enjoyable this last time out. If there is much of a chop - say over a foot or so, I end up with two inches or so of water sloshing around in the cockpit - not so bad when it was 9o degrees out, but cold feet this last weekend!! Any ideas on how to prevent this from going on, or is this part of living with the self-draining through cb design? Jon in Walla Walla _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es

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Do we need a compass anymore?
by Stephen Martin 13 Sep '03

13 Sep '03

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RE: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion
by Smith, Tom 13 Sep '03

13 Sep '03

Informative writeup by Nigel Warren, John. Thanks for passing it on. That spouting problem I was quering the group on a couple weeks ago is due to a busted tang and the cb positioned lower that it should have been. I dove on the boat a couple times and positioned the cb correctly and marked the pendant. Fixed the problem. Now we'll see about fixing the board over the winter. Any thoughts on fixing the tang but rather than lowering the cb to the stopper bolt, making the pendant carry the weight? t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar -----Original Message----- From: John Fleming [mailto:jfleming1231@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 9:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion I recently bought a book titled "Metal Corrosion in Boats", by Nigel Warren. Really a fascinating book, with all sorts of hints and discussion about how to best arrange all your metal components on a boat and how to manage the effects of corrosion above and below the water. Anyway, there's a section in the Chapter "Underwater Problem Areas", that should be of interest to all Montgomery owners, especially those with metal centerboards. I have typed this section in for you. There are other sections that deal with topics near and dear to Montgomery owners, but I'll start with this one. John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd ---- Centreboards (Nigel's a Brit) Most centreboards are of mild steel, sometimes galvanized sometimes not. That in itself does not produce special problems but the pivot bolt and the hoisting gear often enhance corrosion. The bearing areas in way of both the pivot bolt and the lifting tackle are especially prone to a vigorous corrosion. The actual surfaces in contact rub together and are immersed in salt water. Any galvanizing or other protective coating soon rubs off exposing the bare steel edge. The hole in the centreplate then enlarges quickly. The lifting tackle pin is necessarily close to the edge of the plate and eventually after a few seasons can pull through the edge releasing the centreplate. This process will happen even with compatible metals - in most cases a galvanized shackle pin in a steel centreboard - but if a stainless or bronze shackle is used the rate of corrosion of the hole is many times faster because of galvanic effects. With a mild steel centreboard there is no long-lasting solution to this problem except to use compatible materials, i.e. a galvanized shackle on the end of the lifting wire and a galvanized pivot bolt, and then to accept that steady wear will take place. Each year the items should be inspected and replaced when necessary. In the case of the lifting tackle at least the wear of the plate itself can easily be avoided by fitting a pair of mild steel straps and having a replaceable pin. With more difficulty, the hole for the pivot bolt can be fitted with a removable steel bush[ing]. Then at least all the wearing parts are easily replaced. Obviously the thicker the bolt and the pin the longer their life; many boats with centreboards are fitted with pathetically thin pivot bolts which while being quite strong enough when new can tolerate very little corrosion. [How true is this for Montgomery's? I wonder.] The lifting wire itself is a problem. Constantly wetted, neither galvanized nor stainless wire is likely to last long. Stainless wire will give a short life underwater because of pitting, and if a coppersleeved Talurit splice is fitted this will corrode preferentially. Polyester (Terylene or Dacron) rope is one solution, though with a chafe problem, but galvanized chain is better. The lowest link will take the wear but if an overlong piece of chain is fitted in the first place it can be cut off in due course and the next link up used instead. The galvanizing will last only a few years so replacement of the chain must be considered as a matter of course. [My Montgomery has a little wire rope pigtail attached to the board, and then a polyester line going to the cockpit. I guess he's saying I'll have to check it every so often.] A complete long-lasting solution to the wear problem at the pivot and lifting pin on a steel centreplate is elusive. Obviously a longer life would ensue if the wearing areas were of a hard and corrosion resistant metal: this suggests stainless steel. The pitting problem would be reduced by the cathodic protection given by the steel plate. So, at the pivot, one would end up with a stainless bush fixed to the plate and with a stainless steel bolt, making sure that Type 316 stainless steel was used. The bush could be rivetted, bolted or even welded in place. Similarly the lifting point could be bushed, or stainless steel tangs could be fitted. From there a stainless shackle would lead to a polyester lifting rope. [I believe that the Montgomery's more or less follow this advice, except for the stainless bushing at the centerboard pivot. He seems to say that the pivot bolt must be pulled and inspected on a regular basis, and if any significant pitting has occurred, it must be replaced. Also, it implies that even though the centerboard is painted to control rust, there must be metal-to metal contact between the cenboard and the pivot pin.] Of course a centreboard of zinc-free copper alloy would solve all the problems because the attachments could then be of the same corrosion-free alloys. Suitable metals that come to mind are copper, gunmetal [a bronze (88% copper plus tin)] and copper-nickel. Copper alloys are much the same density or a little heavier than steel. A bonus would be that no antifouling would be necessary. The lifting wire could be of Monel (which is available, though at a price). Stainless steel for the centreplate could also be considered (again Type 316) with sacrificial anodes. [The new M23 Bob Eeg is making has a centerboard of silicon bronze, though he doesn't say here whether the pivot bolt is still allowed to be stainless.] Usually cost rules out such materials and mild steel is the only practical choice; but to avoid disaster it is wise to consider carefully the pivot and lifting arrangements. ---------------- _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats This message was scanned for viruses.

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RE: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion
by Smith, Tom 12 Sep '03

12 Sep '03

Sorry not to clarify Doug. My message related to an M17 cb. I don't go by measurement with the cb pendant on my M15, I locate the knot by feel--lower the board til it stops, then draw it up and knot it so I know for sure it's clear. I check it several times during the season to make sure the knot's stayed put, as you suggest. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar -----Original Message----- From: Doug Kelch [mailto:doug_kelch@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 6:24 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion Tom, If you are talking a M15 I believe there was a posting from Jerry Montgomery indicating that the pendant is supposed to hold all of the weight. If I recall Jerry suggested a pendant stopper knot 15" above the bridge deck teak. I could't remember for sure so I have mine at 14" as the knot does tend to creep up the rope. Look up Jerry's posting to be sure. I think it was in 2001 or 2002. Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas The Day" M15 #310 --- "Smith, Tom" <Tom.Smith(a)itron.com> wrote: > Informative writeup by Nigel Warren, John. Thanks > for passing it on. > > That spouting problem I was quering the group on a > couple weeks ago is due to a busted tang and the cb > positioned lower that it should have been. I dove > on the boat a couple times and positioned the cb > correctly and marked the pendant. Fixed the > problem. Now we'll see about fixing the board over > the winter. Any thoughts on fixing the tang but > rather than lowering the cb to the stopper bolt, > making the pendant carry the weight? t > > Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle > Sandpoint, Idaho > M15-345, Chukar > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Fleming > [mailto:jfleming1231@earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 9:54 PM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > Subject: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion > > > I recently bought a book titled "Metal Corrosion in > Boats", by Nigel > Warren. Really a fascinating book, with all sorts > of hints and > discussion about how to best arrange all your metal > components on a boat > and how to manage the effects of corrosion above and > below the water. > > Anyway, there's a section in the Chapter "Underwater > Problem Areas", > that should be of interest to all Montgomery owners, > especially those > with metal centerboards. I have typed this section > in for you. There > are other sections that deal with topics near and > dear to Montgomery > owners, but I'll start with this one. > > John Fleming > M-17: "Star Cross'd > > ---- > > Centreboards (Nigel's a Brit) > Most centreboards are of mild steel, sometimes > galvanized sometimes not. > That in itself does not produce special problems but > the pivot bolt and > the hoisting gear often enhance corrosion. The > bearing areas in way of > both the pivot bolt and the lifting tackle are > especially prone to a > vigorous corrosion. The actual surfaces in contact > rub together and are > immersed in salt water. Any galvanizing or other > protective coating > soon rubs off exposing the bare steel edge. The hole > in the centreplate > then enlarges quickly. The lifting tackle pin is > necessarily close to > the edge of the plate and eventually after a few > seasons can pull > through the edge releasing the centreplate. This > process will happen > even with compatible metals - in most cases a > galvanized shackle pin in > a steel centreboard - but if a stainless or bronze > shackle is used the > rate of corrosion of the hole is many times faster > because of galvanic > effects. > > With a mild steel centreboard there is no > long-lasting solution to this > problem except to use compatible materials, i.e. a > galvanized shackle on > the end of the lifting wire and a galvanized pivot > bolt, and then to > accept that steady wear will take place. Each year > the items should be > inspected and replaced when necessary. > > In the case of the lifting tackle at least the wear > of the plate itself > can easily be avoided by fitting a pair of mild > steel straps and having > a replaceable pin. With more difficulty, the hole > for the pivot bolt can > be fitted with a removable steel bush[ing]. Then at > least all the > wearing parts are easily replaced. > > Obviously the thicker the bolt and the pin the > longer their life; many > boats with centreboards are fitted with pathetically > thin pivot bolts > which while being quite strong enough when new can > tolerate very little > corrosion. [How true is this for Montgomery's? I > wonder.] > > The lifting wire itself is a problem. Constantly > wetted, neither > galvanized nor stainless wire is likely to last > long. Stainless wire > will give a short life underwater because of > pitting, and if a > coppersleeved Talurit splice is fitted this will > corrode preferentially. > Polyester (Terylene or Dacron) rope is one solution, > though with a chafe > problem, but galvanized chain is better. The lowest > link will take the > wear but if an overlong piece of chain is fitted in > the first place it > can be cut off in due course and the next link up > used instead. The > galvanizing will last only a few years so > replacement of the chain must > be considered as a matter of course. > > [My Montgomery has a little wire rope pigtail > attached to the board, and > then a polyester line going to the cockpit. I guess > he's saying I'll > have to check it every so often.] > > A complete long-lasting solution to the wear problem > at the pivot and > lifting pin on a steel centreplate is elusive. > Obviously a longer life > would ensue if the wearing areas were of a hard and > corrosion resistant > metal: this suggests stainless steel. The pitting > problem would be > reduced by the cathodic protection given by the > steel plate. So, at the > pivot, one would end up with a stainless bush fixed > to the plate and > with a stainless steel bolt, making sure that Type > 316 stainless steel > was used. The bush could be rivetted, bolted or even > welded in place. > Similarly the lifting point could be bushed, or > stainless steel tangs > could be fitted. From there a stainless shackle > would lead to a > polyester lifting rope. > > [I believe that the Montgomery's more or less follow > this advice, except > for the stainless bushing at the centerboard pivot. > He seems to say > that the pivot bolt must be pulled and inspected on > a regular basis, and > if any significant pitting has occurred, it must be > replaced. Also, it > implies that even though the centerboard is painted > to control rust, > there must be metal-to metal contact between the > cenboard and the pivot > pin.] > > Of course a centreboard of zinc-free copper alloy > would solve all the > problems because the attachments could then be of > the same > corrosion-free alloys. Suitable metals that come to > mind are copper, > gunmetal [a bronze (88% copper plus tin)] and > copper-nickel. Copper > alloys are much the same density or a little heavier > than steel. A > bonus would be that no antifouling would be > necessary. The lifting wire > could be of Monel (which is available, though at a > price). Stainless > steel for the centreplate could also be considered > (again Type 316) with > sacrificial anodes. > > [The new M23 Bob Eeg is making has a centerboard of > silicon bronze, > though he doesn't say here whether the pivot bolt is > still allowed to be > stainless.] > > Usually cost rules out such materials and mild steel > is the only > practical choice; but to avoid disaster it is wise > to consider carefully > === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats This message was scanned for viruses.

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Re: M_Boats: Centerboard Corrosion Discussion
by Wcpritchett＠aol.com 12 Sep '03

12 Sep '03

I only have a 10' CB Montgomery dink but have had several centerboard boats and others with external lead or cast iron keels. All used in saltwater. The biggest centerboard was approx 12'x4'x1100lbs. Steel plate clad in wood like a sandwich...steel edges were exposed and painted with coal tar epoxy. No rust problems after 4 years of ownership. The boat was 30yrs old and the board original at that time (1969). This one had a new SS cb wire which let go after 2 years without zinc protection (I didn't know better at the time) so I changed it to dacron by splicing 3-strand (hard lay for less stretch). No problems after converting to dacron and I had a stop knot in the line to prevent the board from dropping too deep. Next...cast iron keel on a 30'r. Coal tar epoxy and zero rust problems. Any small breakthroughs were touched up at the annual haul and bottom painting. This keel was 2500 lbs and bolted to the hull. I bonded the keel bolts with an external zinc and had no problems (3 yrs). Another one: Lead keel...3500 lbs. Just too week to use for a centerboard but the iron keel bolts were bonded to an external zinc. In summary: I would always use a sacrificial anode (zinc for saltwater and magnesium for freshwater) if leaving a boat in the water for more than a week or two at a marina. Corrosion is a minor problem compared to electrolysis. Stray currents can be real bad from all the boats grounding their own gear. For trailer sailers simply using modern epoxies to coat your boards (steel or cast iron) will 99% take care of the problem. Dacron line is the only way to go if you have room to splice it...it won't deteriorate in the water even a little bit. Otherwise, if you use wire just change it out every few years..wire that looks good can be brittle and break easy so visual inspections aren't accurate. This really isn't a big deal to take care of so rest peacefully and enjoy your Monts. Regards, Bill

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by Jerry Montgomery 12 Sep '03

12 Sep '03

Hi Tom- Sorry to take so long about answering your questions. I never had too much encouragement about making a mold for a CB. It would cost me about a week's work and several hundred dollars to make the tooling. After I put a post on the list, several people emailed me that they would be interested, but several also pointed out "a reasonable price"; two mentioned two hundred dollars or so; they are dreaming. There would be about a half-day's work to make one, and material would be somewhere in the area of two hundred dollars, probably, including the lead, my cost. It would cost at least another hundred to make a crate and ship it. It just doesn't pencil out unless I have a week or so that I don't have anything to do, which will never happen. I don't mind tying up the money, but the time is a problem. I've got too much work to do that I can make money on. I don't mean to be greedy, but at this point life is too short to work for 10 dollars an hour, and that's what I might be doing. I hate fiberglass anyway. I thought about doing this about a year ago, and even had someone send me a tracing of the old CB, but better sense took over. I remember that someone had a fabricator flame-cut a board, then galvanize it. This would work, sort of, but would work well if they could round off the leading edge and chamfer the exit to give it some semblance of shape. Possible someone could research this and come up with the shop that did it. Steel plate and flame-cutting is cheap, but the labor to do the shaping would be a bite. Weld a tang on it, because you don't want to let it hang from the pennant; it will chafe thru, then hammer it's way out of the boat unless you are really lucky and catch it close to the marina. Brazing would work fine in fresh water, otherwise cast iron or nickle, which is what I used. Sandblast it, then grind it, working for a roundish elliptical leading edge, and a flat trailing edge (don't round it!). Use West system fairing stuff mixed with epoxy (follow Gugeon's directions) to fair it, and sand it with either a DA, or a buffer with a soft pad; probably 80 grit would be fine because the fairing compound sands really well. Prime with epoxy primer; first with Awlgrip sanding primer with a hi fill, (sand with the DA and 80 grit) then the harder stuff by Awlgrip, and sand it with 180 or so. Then paint it with either LP or a catalyzed polyurethane like Deltron, by PPG, 3 or 4 coats. Lots of work, but cheaper and better than a glass one, and it will be as good as new. Let it hang for a couple of weeks before putting it back in the boat, or in your case, since you're probably snowed in already, let it sit over the winter. You can hang it and spray it, or you can do it with a brush, one side at a time, by laying it flat. It weighs about 170 lbs, so you better have Jane turn it over for you. Have fun. I'll CC this to the list for general information. Jerry www.innercite.com/~jmbn

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RE: M_Boats: Wet cockpit in M15
by Smith, Tom 11 Sep '03

11 Sep '03

Our M15 will accumulate water on the floor of the cockpit in active sailing conditions. It'll pool up some under the little bridge deck and extend back a foot or two along the lee side. But I've never seen two inches over the whole floor. If one is sailing with a companion the problem could be more acute. I agree with Bill regarding weight distribution. Move everything as forward as possible including your carcass--the boat will squat if you load too much stuff aft. I've always liked the M15's drainage system and thought it worked pretty well. Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar -----Original Message----- From: Bill Riker [mailto:wriker@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:01 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Wet cockpit in M15 John, I have a little water in my M15 when heeling or punching through waves, but no where near 2". Maybe an inch or so right under the bridgedeck and along the lee seat, but usually it doesn't even wet the center of the cockpit, where my feet are. And it drains as soon as the boat levels out. Some use sponges on either side of the centerboard pennant to reduce the flow. The Montgomeries sail best with weight forward. Try to store heaviest items as far forward as practical. The one weight I have astern is a 2hp Honda hanging on to adjustable bracket. But because I have shallow lockers on both sides of the cockpit, there isn't much stored underneath. I have added a tiller extension so I can keep my weight forward. Also, I have found it's more comfortable forward, with higher coamings and the cabin bulkhead to lean against. Good luck and enjoy! Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jon Martin Sent: September 10, 2003 8:27 PM To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Wet cockpit in M15 Well, first off thanks to those who have shared info with me - I've been out four times now, and things are getting better each time. I installed some cam cleats instead of the worn out jam cleats for the jib sheets, and it made sailing much more enjoyable this last time out. If there is much of a chop - say over a foot or so, I end up with two inches or so of water sloshing around in the cockpit - not so bad when it was 9o degrees out, but cold feet this last weekend!! Any ideas on how to prevent this from going on, or is this part of living with the self-draining through cb design? Jon in Walla Walla _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats This message was scanned for viruses.

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Re: M_Boats: cloudy compass
by NummiJ＠aol.com 11 Sep '03

11 Sep '03

Don't waste good beer. Good luck Dale

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How to handle fenders when single-handed sailing?
by Randy Graves 10 Sep '03

10 Sep '03

Friends, Does anyone have any good ideas of how to handle the fenders when single-handed sailing? For ease and convenience I have been leaving them attached while under sail. I would like to come up with a handy way to deploy and retrieve without letting the boat get away from me in the process, or having them roll around in the cockpit all day. Any ideas? Thank you, Randy Graves

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