March 2004 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: For the fun of racing fast fans on the list
by Saltm17＠aol.com 27 Mar '04

27 Mar '04

Doug, I can't explain how it works, but Jerry told me once that the M17 need some serious mast rake and weather helm to really perform to windward (not sure about the M15 or M23). It has something to do with the deep rudder (after being carefully faired) adding some lift. I just played around with the amount of rake and when I found the right amount, the boat really responded. That was the key to going fast to windward, and patience and boat trim were the keys to downwind speed. Sounds simple, but it took me quite awhile to figure it out. John

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Sorry . . . Big Water in the M23
by Honshells 27 Mar '04

27 Mar '04

Sorry . . . Wasn't paying attention . . . Thought Jeff's specs were of the M23 . . . But I still agree: The board weight of even the old M17 is not a substantial factor in stability . . . Jerry himself has proposed selling very thin light composite boards as replacements for the cast iron ("very thin" for those with trunk-swelling problems) . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell(a)ia4u.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:22 AM Subject: Big Water in the M23 Stands to reason . . . And I believe the same principal holds true for even the older M17 . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Grudin" <grudin(a)vdbs.com> To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 12:06 PM Subject: Big water in the M23 More Info: Weight of Center board 320 lbs Total Ballast 1530 lbs Percentage of Ballast in centerboard 20% Draft Board up 25 Draft Board down 411 If you look at photos of the shape of the centerboard, you see that even when down, a large chunk of it remains within the hull of the boat and probably 90% of the weight of the board is within this and the first 6 inches extending below the hull. This is due to not only the triangular shape, but also that the board is thinner as it extends away from the hull. You can see this in photos of my centerboard at: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin/m23/Monty23.html (go to centerboard repair) If this is even close to true, then only about 160 pounds (10%) is located beyond 6 inches of the hull with the centerboard down. That just doesn't seem like much in a 3600 pound boat. My Catalina 25, had a true swing keel. All of the weight of the keel was in the moving part and most of that was away from the hull. The keel clanked all the time in the slightest bit of chop. The worst thing was the singing of the cable at speed. It was very loud and impossible to stop. The centerboard in my Monty does neither and adds to the pleasure of owning this boat. _____ 73 de AC6KW <mailto:jeff@grudin.net> Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.grudin.net Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Montgomery 23 Hull #072 Norcal QRP * QRP-L * ARS * AR Qrp --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.596 / Virus Database: 379 - Release Date: 2/26/2004 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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Re: M_Boats: Big water in the M23
by Jeff Grudin 27 Mar '04

27 Mar '04

More Info: Weight of Center board 320 lbs Total Ballast 1530 lbs Percentage of Ballast in centerboard 20% Draft Board up 2’5” Draft Board down 4’11” If you look at photos of the shape of the centerboard, you see that even when down, a large chunk of it remains within the hull of the boat and probably 90% of the weight of the board is within this and the first 6 inches extending below the hull. This is due to not only the triangular shape, but also that the board is thinner as it extends away from the hull. You can see this in photos of my centerboard at: http://www.vdbs.com/~grudin/m23/Monty23.html (go to centerboard repair) If this is even close to true, then only about 160 pounds (10%) is located beyond 6 inches of the hull with the centerboard down. That just doesn't seem like much in a 3600 pound boat. My Catalina 25, had a true swing keel. All of the weight of the keel was in the moving part and most of that was away from the hull. The keel clanked all the time in the slightest bit of chop. The worst thing was the “singing” of the cable at speed. It was very loud and impossible to stop. The centerboard in my Monty does neither and adds to the pleasure of owning this boat. _____ 73 de AC6KW <mailto:jeff@grudin.net> Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: http://www.grudin.net Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Montgomery 23 Hull #072 Norcal QRP * QRP-L * ARS * AR Qrp --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.596 / Virus Database: 379 - Release Date: 2/26/2004

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rake, ballast and t shirts
by Richard Cottrell 27 Mar '04

27 Mar '04

The recommended mast rake on the M15 maybe different thant the M17 - different rigs. The old M23 had less ballast than the new M23. Any tee shirts available? Rich Cottrell

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Re: M_Boats: Mellow sailing
by LUDLOWD2＠aol.com 27 Mar '04

27 Mar '04

Bill: I put a tiller tamer on Sweet Dream the first thing. A jam cleat under the tiller with an adjusable tension bungie across the cockpit. Also helps to hold the rudder straight out when coming into the dock and launching. The M-15 in responsive to shifting weight, like the potter. It heaves to easily but grabbing the boom to adjust the toping lift and pull on the reef clew tends to start her sailing again in a stiff breeze. Eventually I'll get an 80% (heavy, flat) storm jib as Jerry recommends for those high wind days. Mostly the problem has been light wind and since I've gotten a new job, I can afford the 150 Genny and whisker pole that I have been lusting after. Fair wind all. Don

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Re: M_Boats: Big water in the M23
by Jeff Grudin 27 Mar '04

27 Mar '04

I believe that is the weight of the total ballast (the centerboard plus the integral keel). The boat weight is 3600 lbs plus all your stuff. I got those figures from the M23 brochure on the MSOG site. _____ 73 de AC6KW <HYPERLINK "mailto:jeff@grudin.net"mailto:jeff@grudin.net> Jeff Grudin, DVM Web Add: HYPERLINK "http://www.grudin.net"http://www.grudin.net Ocean Animal Clinic / Cat Clinic of Santa Cruz - Santa Cruz, California Montgomery 23 Hull #072 Norcal QRP * QRP-L * ARS * AR Qrp --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.593 / Virus Database: 376 - Release Date: 2/20/2004

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Re: M_Boats: raising the mont
by Woodsybill＠aol.com 26 Mar '04

26 Mar '04

Unbielievable! Bill K. M17 #55 Half Monty

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Re: M_Boats: raising the mont
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 26 Mar '04

26 Mar '04

One truck, two trailers and 40 miles to water. Much easier in the building. Plus the availability to use the set up for other stuff.

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Re: M_Boats: raising the mont
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 26 Mar '04

26 Mar '04

Hi Tom, I did about the same with an 17 foot Alumaweld Jet Sled. I doubled the rafters and added verticle reinforcement under the load bearing rafters I was picking up with. Rather than the toe rail, I used slings I got free from an Operating Engineer friend. one under the stern and one under the pointy end. I used 4 come alongs and raised her stern high to make sure nothing slipped. All this to trade out an old trailer for a new one. The Alumaweld with the 115 Merc probably weighs in at 1500# and was of no concern at any time during the project. Regards, Bill

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RE: M_Boats: raising the mont
by Smith, Tom 26 Mar '04

26 Mar '04

Well, that's where the skunk works part of my plan comes in. I sistered four rafters in my shop (doubled 2x6s 12 feet long), and ran 4x4s across the tops through which 6 or 8 (depending on how many attachment points I have at the toe rail) large eyebolts are fixed. There's a temporary/removable 4x4 brace at each end of the four spans. I'll 2T come-alongs (a couple friends have volunteered to furnish the two or three come-alongs I need in addition to my own, and will assist) at each point and lift the boat slowly off the trailer. I know, there are several of you (especially Jerry) chuckling out there, but I don't plan to invest in a hoist or other complicated equipment (all the lumber comes from a room I dismantled so it was free). I'll remove the pulpit prior to lifting--that will give me sufficient clearance to drop the cb (about 25 inches), then block the whole shebang up (still connected to the toe rail) for the bottom work. I know there are several ways to skin this cat. This is mine. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed -----Original Message----- From: Honshells [mailto:chonshell@ia4u.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 8:27 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: raising the mont Where I'm confused is what do you hang the 6-8 point toe-rail-raised Monty FROM . . . What's high enough and strong enough for that maneuver? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Smith, Tom" <Tom.Smith(a)itron.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:26 AM Subject: raising the mont I intend to lift our M17 using a method similar to Larry's, Gilbert. Jerry's used the alum. toe rail to move M17s around forever (I shouldn't have to say the teak rails won't serve this purpose, right?). I plan to spread the load out to at least 6 points, maybe 8, and keep the lifting bridle angles as straight as possible (not sure how to say this...the point is to have the straps or cables or chains or whatever hang straight down to the connection at the toe rail, thus lessening the strain on the strap and the rail). I'll probably rig a pair of backup straps under the hull for good measure, and then block the boat up after I've dropped the cb. I might add I will administer one or two stiff shots of George Dickel to myself prior to performing this operation. If I wasn't going to refinish the bottom however, I wouldn't go through this pain. There are numerous places with lifts sufficient to get a 1500 pound boat off a trailer to gain access to the cb. If all I was doing was dropping the board, that's the route I'd go. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats This message was scanned for viruses!!

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