- montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: Genoa size...
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 31 May '16

31 May '16

Henry, I have a rigging drawing dated '1973' that shows the 'J' dimension as 6'-7" - you are fine at that number - that is approx. .04" less than 'J' - as my grandson likes to say (20 mo) "OOhh myy! We can ask Jerry if the 7.16' is for the flush deck?? Have Fun Go sailing. GO In a message dated 5/26/2016 8:33:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, heinzir(a)gmail.com writes: I have seen two different figures published for the "J" measurement of the M17: 6.58 ft and 7.16 ft. I'm guessing that the longer one is for the original (and newest?) boats that have the forestay pinned at the tip of the bow and the shorter is for the newer style boats that have the forestay pinned back from the bow about 6". I think I ordered sails using the shorter "J" measurement and shortchanged myself! My 150 is actually 137 and my 135 is closer to 125! Henry On Thursday, May 26, 2016, <swwheatley(a)comcast.net> wrote: > Genoa size is luff perpendicular (LP) expressed a percentage of the J > measurement. LP is the length of a line drawn from the clew to the forestay > intersecting the forestay at a 90 degree angle. The J measurement is the > length of a line from the forestay pin back to the mast intersecting the > mast at a 90 degree angle. On an M17 it is an imaginary line because the > mast doesn't actually extend down that far down. There is some conflicting > info out there but I believe the J measurement on an M17 is approximately 6 > 1/2'. Maybe someone else can chime in with the exact number. Measure your > LP and compare it to that to determine what you have. For example, an LP of > 10' corresponds roughly to a 150 genoa. > > If your genoa is an older hank-on, it is probably a 150. If it is on a > roller-furler, it might be a little smaller. I run a 135, which is a > popular size for a roller furling genoa. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jazzy" <jazzydaze(a)gmail.com <javascript:;>> > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 2:41:37 PM > Subject: M_Boats: Genoa size... > > Hi all, was just pondering my tired sails. How does one know what size > Genoa is installed? Thanks! > > Couple of updates... > > Stoked for Mem Day...trailering to Pleasant Harbor Marina where we have a > slot for a night, full amenities and a motor couple coming to join the > festivities. Should be good pirate fun. > > Last week I took my friends son out. He's 18 and had never been in a > sailboat, we spent a few hours tooling around the harbor, I worked him hard > on terminology, parking, stopping at random buoys, starting and stopping > the motor, approaching objects slowly... boy was he surprised when I > hopped off and told him to take a solo lap at the end of the day! Hahaha. > Reminded me of flight instructor days. His dad told me afterward he > couldn't stop talking about it. Now dad wants to go. Maybe got us two new > sailors... do share your boats and teach some youngsters! What's a dock > ding or two compared to passing the torch?? Hahaha. A bonus was that I got > to see my boat cruising around. They are quite graceful and salty looking > when off their trailer aren't they ? ;) Much sexier than the Harbor 20 > that was buzzing around. > > Found a slip for 110 a month 8 minutes from home...sooo tempted. > Comments? Is the bottom going to hell in a hand basket? > > Jazz > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile on Windows 10 phone

7 11

M17 hatch slides
by Stanley Wheatley 30 May '16

30 May '16

Forty year old hatch slides suffered some damage during removal for refinishing (round head bolts in countersunk holes, go figure). Easier just to fab new ones. Questioning whether to omit cut-outs for hatch removal (see attachment). Can still slide hatch out the rear, pieces will be stronger and fab will be easier. What am I missing?

2 2

Fw: Genoa size...
by Judith Blumhorst, DC 30 May '16

30 May '16

Hi Henry, If I do all the geometry, it works out that measuring from the forestay/deck intersection to the front of the mast is off from the true J measurement by about 1.5 inches on a Montgomery 17. As a sailmakers, we send out a form that instructs the customer how to measure their rig for new sails, with enough measurements for us to calculate all the measurements we need to fit sails accurately. The customer doesn't need to understand the geometry behind the forms. It's high-school trig and geometry, with a geodesic twist thrown in for fun because sails are 3D shapes, not 2D. Good think I loved geometry and trig in school. :-) The 3D twist is why a 2D drawing showing the three edges of the sail don't accurately foretell what the LP of the sail truly is. As a result, Jerry's sailplan drawings, in 2D, which shows the geodesic edges of the sails, inaccurately the LP. Don't worry about it.... you sailmaker will take care of it for you. :-) Judywww.hydesailsdirect.com From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir(a)gmail.com> To: "Judith Blumhorst, DC" <drjudyb(a)blumhorst.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:03 PM Subject: M_Boats: Genoa size... Thanks, Judy, for the great information. I OWE YOU A BEER! I went out and measured and sure enough it is 6'7"! I guess I was overthinking it. I thought that with the cabin in the way I couldn't get a true right angle to the mast and so the measurement wouldn't be accurate. But I moved my tape measure around and found that at the most I might be off an Inch or so but nowhere near the 6+ inches difference suggested by the 7.16 J posted on the MSOG site. Tim's response below seems to indicate that that is the measurement for the tall rig. He just measured his at 7'1-3/4" which is right on. Tim, thanks for the response and for helping clear this up in my mind. Once again science and technology overcame fear and superstition! Henry On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Judith Blumhorst, DC <drjudyb(a)blumhorst.com> wrote: Henry, if you want to know what the J dimension is on your boat, just measure it! I'd be willing to bet you a beer that it's within an inch or two of 6'7" , based on my experience with measurements taken from a bunch of M17's. I have a copy of Jerry's original sailplan drawings, probably the same ones that Gary has. A couple of years ago, Jerry made copies and sent them to a folks who needed them in order to support the Montgomery owners community . As a sailmaker, I was lucky enough to be one of the recipients. The plans indicate that the J dimension is 6'7". All good sailmakers build sails to the actual measurements of the rig. My customers have confirmed the "J" dimension several times, +or - an inch. So I'm placing my bet on 6' 7" = 6.58' . The other number is probably just plain erroneous. For hank on headsails, the most popular headsails are the 109% and 150%, but a 130 or 35 works fine too. The toe rail tracks on the boats built by Jerry can accommodate any size you want, with whatever clew height your sailmaker recommends for your particular purposes (ie, windward-leeward racing vs cruising including reaching). The genoa tracks on the more recently built Bob E built boats are long enough to accommodate just about any size genoa as well. For cruising boats with roller furlers, 135-ish is the most versatile for most cruisers, because it still has a good shape when reefed to about a 110%. But if you typically sail in very light winds, then a 150% might be better. If you sail in heavier winds, maybe a 109% is the best. For super light winds, a Cruising Code Zero (on an itty bitty free-flying furler like the Ronstan Series 80) and tacked to the bow pulpit would be awesome. It's much bigger and more powerful than a 170 drifter - it's about twice as big as a 150% genoa! It will sail as high as 55 degrees true wind angle (30 degrees apparent), so you can go to weather with it. For sailing downind in light air, a Cruising Zero won't sail as deep as a Cruising Asymm, but you can still jibe your way downwind sailing as deep as maybe 135 or 140 degrees, depending on wind strength. It's so big and powerful that you can get the boat going 2.5 kts at a true wind angle of 135%, in 3 knots of wind. A drifter can't do that. You can play around with apparent wind angles and boat speeds at http://www.hydesailsdirect.com/Articles.asp?ID=278 . The take home message is this: If the boats is fast enough, the apparent wind angle is going to be a beat, even if the true wind is aft of your beam. Judy Bwww.hydesailsdirect.com From: GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 10:40 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Genoa size... Henry, I have a rigging drawing dated '1973' that shows the 'J' dimension as 6'-7" - you are fine at that number - that is approx. .04" less than 'J' - as my grandson likes to say (20 mo) "OOhh myy! We can ask Jerry if the 7.16' is for the flush deck?? Have Fun Go sailing. GO In a message dated 5/26/2016 8:33:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, heinzir(a)gmail.com writes: I have seen two different figures published for the "J" measurement of the M17: 6.58 ft and 7.16 ft. I'm guessing that the longer one is for the original (and newest?) boats that have the forestay pinned at the tip of the bow and the shorter is for the newer style boats that have the forestay pinned back from the bow about 6". I think I ordered sails using the shorter "J" measurement and shortchanged myself! My 150 is actually 137 and my 135 is closer to 125! Henry On Thursday, May 26, 2016, <swwheatley(a)comcast.net> wrote: > Genoa size is luff perpendicular (LP) expressed a percentage of the J > measurement. LP is the length of a line drawn from the clew to the forestay > intersecting the forestay at a 90 degree angle. The J measurement is the > length of a line from the forestay pin back to the mast intersecting the > mast at a 90 degree angle. On an M17 it is an imaginary line because the > mast doesn't actually extend down that far down. There is some conflicting > info out there but I believe the J measurement on an M17 is approximately 6 > 1/2'. Maybe someone else can chime in with the exact number. Measure your > LP and compare it to that to determine what you have. For example, an LP of > 10' corresponds roughly to a 150 genoa. > > If your genoa is an older hank-on, it is probably a 150. If it is on a > roller-furler, it might be a little smaller. I run a 135, which is a > popular size for a roller furling genoa. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jazzy" <jazzydaze(a)gmail.com <javascript:;>> > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 2:41:37 PM > Subject: M_Boats: Genoa size... > > Hi all, was just pondering my tired sails. How does one know what size > Genoa is installed? Thanks! > > Couple of updates... > > Stoked for Mem Day...trailering to Pleasant Harbor Marina where we have a > slot for a night, full amenities and a motor couple coming to join the > festivities. Should be good pirate fun. > > Last week I took my friends son out. He's 18 and had never been in a > sailboat, we spent a few hours tooling around the harbor, I worked him hard > on terminology, parking, stopping at random buoys, starting and stopping > the motor, approaching objects slowly... boy was he surprised when I > hopped off and told him to take a solo lap at the end of the day! Hahaha. > Reminded me of flight instructor days. His dad told me afterward he > couldn't stop talking about it. Now dad wants to go. Maybe got us two new > sailors... do share your boats and teach some youngsters! What's a dock > ding or two compared to passing the torch?? Hahaha. A bonus was that I got > to see my boat cruising around. They are quite graceful and salty looking > when off their trailer aren't they ? ;) Much sexier than the Harbor 20 > that was buzzing around. > > Found a slip for 110 a month 8 minutes from home...sooo tempted. > Comments? Is the bottom going to hell in a hand basket? > > Jazz > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile on Windows 10 phone -- Sent from Gmail Mobile on Windows 10 phone

1 0

Re: M_Boats: Genoa size...
by Jim Sadler 28 May '16

28 May '16

IpuJim > On May 26, 2016, at 6:52 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind(a)acm.org> wrote: > > This message has no content.

1 0

Genoa size...
by Jazzy 28 May '16

28 May '16

Hi all, was just pondering my tired sails. How does one know what size Genoa is installed? Thanks! Couple of updates... Stoked for Mem Day...trailering to Pleasant Harbor Marina where we have a slot for a night, full amenities and a motor couple coming to join the festivities. Should be good pirate fun. Last week I took my friends son out. He's 18 and had never been in a sailboat, we spent a few hours tooling around the harbor, I worked him hard on terminology, parking, stopping at random buoys, starting and stopping the motor, approaching objects slowly... boy was he surprised when I hopped off and told him to take a solo lap at the end of the day! Hahaha. Reminded me of flight instructor days. His dad told me afterward he couldn't stop talking about it. Now dad wants to go. Maybe got us two new sailors... do share your boats and teach some youngsters! What's a dock ding or two compared to passing the torch?? Hahaha. A bonus was that I got to see my boat cruising around. They are quite graceful and salty looking when off their trailer aren't they ? ;) Much sexier than the Harbor 20 that was buzzing around. Found a slip for 110 a month 8 minutes from home...sooo tempted. Comments? Is the bottom going to hell in a hand basket? Jazz

10 10

Trailer bunks
by gordonsaville80＠yahoo.com 26 May '16

26 May '16

I have a pacific trailer galv with a toung extension. When sighting by eye down the hull from the stern a could see a noticeable indentation of the hull at the forward end of the bunk. The keel is sitting hard on the center keel bunk. After looking into the problem I found the forward adjustable bunk supports were bottomed out and could not go any lower. So I removed them and cut them down so they don't bottom out on the U bolt the indentations are gone. The front bunks on my pacific were to high and needed fabrication to fit my M 17 hull. If your not sure about your 17 I would take a look from the stern and sight down through there and look for a dent in the hull. There was a lot of stress on my hull from a ill fitted trailer. I only cut off 5/8" and that was plenty for my problem. Sent from my iPod

2 1

Tiller Extension...
by Jazzy 22 May '16

22 May '16

Hi guys, let's hear about your tiller extensions. How long does it have to be to stand in companionway? Whaddya got? What's good, what's bad? Jazzy

8 12

Hull Repair
by George Iemmolo 22 May '16

22 May '16

Was finally able to visit the Merry Helen II and check for damage that caused the leak. Was able to see some damage at a lap streak joint just forward of the Port bunk board. Could not see further along the same joint as it is resting on the bunk board. I contacted a local Fiberglass repair shop and have a scheduled meeting at 9 tomorrow morning to asses the damage the best we can. I am sure that their is additional damage as the amount of water taken on was considerable in a short period of time. Need to drop the mast so boat can be towed to repair shop and removed from trailer. My S-I-L and grandson will be helping in the morning PTL for family ☺ George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"

2 2

Re: M_Boats: Sailing song...
by Mark Dvorscak 21 May '16

21 May '16

Nice, Jazzy. I did enjoy it! Sent from my U.S. Cellular® smartphone Jazzy <jazzydaze(a)gmail.com> wrote: >Hey guys, one of the things I do for fun is create music. I thought I'd >try to capture a day on the water with a surprise squall.. LOL > >Enjoy Bella Nave! > >-= Jazz > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/osqmptp9e1hddr8/Bella%20Nave.mp3?dl=0

1 0

Re: M_Boats: bent plastic rudders
by Dave Scobie 20 May '16

20 May '16

Rick: lay the rudder flat, on its side, in a warm location (or in the sun) so the concave side of the board is done (ie, the tip that is out of line is down). please weights on the convex side to encourage the board to become flat. for these plastic rudders don't store them on their tip leaning against a wall. this will case them to bend. when on the boat pull the rudder up so it is JUST out of the water and not 'pointing towards the sky'. yes, the rudder will be sticking after of the boat. when stored 'towards the sky' the weight of the rudder will cause it to bend. best way to store these rudders is on their side. such as on the v-berth, the garage/basement floor or a shelf in the garage or basement. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Rick Davies <jdavies104(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Dave, > > I've had persistent warping problems with my Ruddercraft kickup > plastic rudder. It took a warped set during its first season, about an > inch or more out of line at at the tip. I can correct it temporarily by > clamping it in a reverse curve for several days, but it always comes back. > How should I be storing it? During the season I leave it on the boat. Is > there something else I should be doing? > > Thanks, > > Rick > M17 #633 > Lynne L > > On Thursday, May 19, 2016, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > until the mid-ish-80s the M17s centerboards were cast iron. when Jerry > > lost the casting mold when the casting company went bankrupt. as a > result > > Jerry modified the M17s to use the M15's centerboard. > > > > the M15's centerboard is a fiberglass shell filled the about 45# of lead > > shot (ie, BBs). > > > > don't use stainless under the waterline. use silicon bronze for the > > rotation and stop pins. > > > > the best M17 rudders are a solid piece of wood, mahogany, that slide > > up/down on a rod (silicone bronze or aluminum bronze .... NOT stainless > > steel. when in the up position the rudder is just above the depth of the > > shoal keel. these are what Jerry delivered on most of his boats (some of > > the early M17 rudders were simi-balanced and could not be moved up/down; > > also solid mahogany). > > > > the plastic (HPDE i believe) kickup rudder that is available for the M17 > > isn't to Jerry's & Lyle's foil speck. the plastic rudders also warp, > > significantly, if not stored correctly. > > > > as Jerry recommended the best move would be to cut a new centerboard out > of > > steel plate, clean up the edges to make a bit of a foil. the cast iron > > boards weigh about 180#; though i've read some were lighter as noted: > > 165-170# > > > > John Owens, JOWoodworks, can make you an original specification mahogany > > rudder & glulam tiller. > > > > Contact Dwyer Aluminum Mast company for a new standing rig & boom. > > > > Harry Pattison (E/P Custom Sails) or JudyB with Hyde Sails Direct can > > assist with sails. Both lofts know the M17 well. > > > > I can assist you in getting the mast/boom hardware (ie, cleat(s), blocks, > > strapeyes, etc.) > > > > I can also assist in the running rigging (sheets, halyards, and other > sail > > control lines). > > > > I can also make you the shrouds (I have Jerry's swaging tool ... used to > > make most of his M17s and M15s shrouds). > > > > before investing i recommend you carefully inspect the shoal keel to > > confirm the steel ballast isn't rusting. if it is rusting a significant > > repair is required. also inspect the deck/cockpit for balsa core rot ... > > if the rot is significant the repair is also a lot of work. both issues > > are also costy. > > > > if you need measurements for anything, or pictures of parts, or pictures > of > > how the boat is set up i can, again, assist ... i have an '83 M17 here at > > the shop. should be identical you yours as she has a cast iron keel and > > the 'new' deck/cockpit setup (ie, three cockpit lockers, two cockpit > locker > > drains and a slightly different house than the original deck mold). i > > also have direct contact with Jerry to assist in the project. > > > > > > -- > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: Sage Marine - www.sagemairne.com > > :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com > > >

4 5