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Re: M_Boats: M17 sails
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 07 Oct '16

07 Oct '16

John, >From what I see from your photo - the lower set of reef cringles appear to be a 'flattening reef' - - not so common to see them lately, but they were in vogue in the seventies. The reef if viewed parallel to the boom, will be deeper at the aft end of the boom. The idea is to flatten the mainsail by removing a large portion of the draft and maintain most of the sail area. A helpful feature - just not real common on small boats. Looks like you have missing or damaged battens at the second and third pockets (can't see the top one in pix) On a related note, and not directed to your boat in particular - the performance of our boats - ALL sailing abilities, directly corresponds to the quality of the sails - well cared for sails are of paramount importance in making a boat sail to its potential. The fact that a sail has no tears/stains or torn seams are not the only indications of a sails usefulness. Older 'worn sails' are like old tires - yes, you can drive down to the corner store on the threadbare tires but they will not allow for safe braking/handling - a sail that has been stretched beyond the designed shape will encourage poor handling in the boat - draft aft or excessivedaft in head or mainsails, loose leech/foot will translate to poor pointing, excess weather helm and poor speed. Age of sails does not positively correlate to a good experience like an old trusted friend. About 'Speed' - we know not everyone is concerned with speed. Sails in less than good designed shape degrade a boats performance on all levels. They will cause the boat to point poorly and make a destination harder to acquire, encourage excess heeling which produces excess weather helm and loss of control at higher wind speeds. No one likes to drive a 'sloppy' car - it is a bit harder to compare a boat in good condition (sails) than it is to get in my wife's newer lower mileage car - and compare the experience. IMHO best bang for the $ is NEW Quality sails - we all have our favorite sailmakers.For a treat to yourself and your sailing safety/experience why not try a new headsail - a nice 110% for example - most of us as sailors would welcome the experience of higher quality handling and performance. This is not a personal 'rag' on your particular case - just me 'P*ssin' in the wind' about the age/quality of many of our (mine included) sails on our boats. I have a full suit of Reggie Armstrongs (they WERE good++), a suit of middle age/old Norths for day'cruising and recent Ullmans for racing - or when I need to 'feel good' about the boats performance) Support a good local or global sailmaker - NFIW - I would just like to see more grins on Monty sailors when they break out a new sail!! PS - ROLL THEM IF YOU GOT "EM (new sails that is) - roll them parallel to the foot - please don't fold or wad them up- proper storage encourages many more grins going forward as your sail will be the better for proper storage. End of unsolicited rant and worth every penny.{:>) GO In a message dated 10/4/2016 1:40:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john(a)eco-living.net writes: Speaking of sails...a few questions about M17 suite of sails. My M17 from 1974 came with the newer main with three reefs, all good there. I also got the "small" jib, which indicates on its bag that it is best used with the first reef in the main. It's not a full on storm jib. It does work very well with first reef in main. Also works OK with full main when the "big" jib would be overpowered - speaking of which... And, I got the "big" jib, which on its bag indicates that it is the "cruising" genoa. I assume (but don't know for sure) that it's the 150% "normal" cruising jib for the M17. First off, is that the "OEM" set of jibs, those two? Second off, is there something in between those two, either OEM or that anyone has found appropriate from experience? It's a pretty big gap between the two, in terms of sail area. Seems like an intermediate size would be more versatile for a range of wind conditions than just the rather small or the very big options...? Or maybe I'm missing something basic about the nature of the M17 rig. Any info/experiences appreciated. cheers, John S. On 10/04/2016 12:11 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: > Yeah, I was pretty pleased to acquire a newer main with three reefs with > the boat. > So far I've only used the first reef...not sure I want to be out on the > water when the third might be required! Glad to have the option though. > > The 'small' jib has the Reggie Armstrong label on it, yes. It is rather > stretched, and flappy in the leach, probably the original. > > I need to look again at the cruising jib (the big one) as I can't recall > what maker was on it if any. I've only used it a few times so far. > > cheers, > John S. > > On 10/04/2016 08:49 AM, swwheatley(a)comcast.net wrote: >> Yes, early M17s usually carried Reggie Armstrong sails so your jib >> probably is original and your main is not. >> >> At 42 years old, that jib has lived almost as many lives as a cat, but >> you probably knew that already. >> >> Interesting that your main has 3 reefs. That 3rd reef would correspond >> with some pretty hardcore sailing. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "John Schinnerer" <john(a)eco-living.net> >> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" >> <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:07:31 PM >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix >> >> It's an M-17...that may explain part of the difference...I'm 6' 3", if >> it were an M15 I'd have to be 5' 6"! :-) >> >> It's hull #38, built in 1974. The M-17s had transom cutouts for quite a >> while, someone else may know when that changed. >> >> No number on the sail as it's apparently not the original sail, or, >> numbers didn't get put on the original. It's not in great shape, but I >> think it's in too good of shape to be the original. The main is from >> North Sails - does anyone know what maker the original main would have >> been on a '74 M-17? The small jib is Reggie Armstrong which IIRC was an >> early sail supplier? >> >> As to the hull color, I am nearly certain it is not the original. There >> are a few rub spots where a more orange color (not white) shows through. >> I wasn't sure what to make of that, until I looked at the MSOG photo >> site owner registry recently and saw another M17 with original "custom >> gelcoat" hull color given as "Tangerine" (Windsong, here: >> http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=22) which >> in the photos looks pretty close to what is showing through the rub >> spots on my M17. This photo of "Dulce" shows a possibly similar orange-y >> red, prior to the repaint with the red Awlgrip: >> http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/General/imageviewer.php?objectid=25&ob… >> >> >> So I'm guessing I have an original "tangerine" hull gelcoat that at some >> point got painted over with the red you see. You can also see some >> duller looking, more reddish brown blotches here and there - again I'm >> not sure but it looks like they were attempts to cover rubbed areas or >> other small cosmetic finish defects with some other finish that didn't >> work out well visually. I'd love to have her hull perfectly bristol but >> my priority generally goes to sailing time and functional upgrades >> first... :-) >> >> cheers, >> John S. >> >> >> On 10/03/2016 02:29 PM, Steve Trapp wrote: >>> John, >>> Thanx for the Waldo Lake photos. I notice that your M-15 is red and >>> appears to have a cut out opening on the transom, different than my 1985 >>> M-15 that is white with a solid (?) transom. What year was yours built? >>> What are the numbers on your sail? >>> Steve >>> M-15 # 335 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer >>> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 1:01 PM >>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats >>> Subject: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix >>> >>> A few shots from my recent Waldo lake trip. Ghosting; cruising; morning >>> dew on coaming; nice anchorage. >>> >>> cheers, >>> John S. >>> >> > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Re: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix
by Keith R. Martin 07 Oct '16

07 Oct '16

I have 3 reefs in my main and have all 3 sets of cheek blocks and cleats on my boom so that the reefing system is completely contained on the boom. I prefer a 2 line reefing system with an individual lines so the boom is a little busy but a choice of small cleats and harken micro cheek blocks makes it all work pretty well... On Oct 6, 2016 7:54 PM, "David Rifkind" <drifkind(a)acm.org> wrote: > On Oct 4, 2016, at 8:49 AM, swwheatley(a)comcast.net wrote: > > Yes, early M17s usually carried Reggie Armstrong sails so your jib probably is original and your main is not. > > At 42 years old, that jib has lived almost as many lives as a cat, but you probably knew that already. > > Interesting that your main has 3 reefs. That 3rd reef would correspond with some pretty hardcore sailing. I’m curious how you handle multiple reefs. My main has only one. I assume you don’t have three full sets of reefing tackle on the boom. What do you do with them?

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Re: M_Boats: M17 sails
by John Schinnerer 06 Oct '16

06 Oct '16

Thanks for this - Jerry's writeup about the M17 on the MSOG site says the 'cruising' jib is normally a 150 and that seems about right for what my 'big' jib is. It's a lotta sailcloth! I do usually stay conservative with which jib I use. If the likely winds are going to overpower the 150 at the upper end of what's expected (including swirly gusts, sailing on smallish mountain lakes), I go with the small jib. My 'small' jib cannot, I think, be a 110. The leach at the clew does not overlap the mast. In terms of the J vs. LP measure, I'd need to measure the LP of the small jib and the J - I think there was a thread on what the J of an M17 was quite a while back? In any case, just visually, it really doesn't look like the LP could be 110% of the J. And, the luff is only about 3/4 the length of the jib halyard (does not go to masthead). So that raises (so to speak ;-) a sail size identification question. Does actual sail area factor in to the percentage name a sail has? It seems not... In other words - I could have two jibs with the same LP, and so based on J vs LP they would be the same %, say 120%. But one could have a higher clew and/or a shorter luff and thus would have less sail area. I get that using the LP is part of addressing this, for jibs with different shapes (clew heights in particular), as indicated here: http://www.sailboat-cruising.com/sail-dimensions.html Confirmed by this - "The LP defines the sail size in terms of percentage increase beyond the J measurement...," on this page: http://www.secondwindsails.com/measurement.php So it seems that the % name of a jib comes strictly from the J vs. LP, and so jibs with identical % names (e.g. 130%) could have different sail areas. Any further illumination appreciated... And yeah, furling jib...convenience vs. performance (and cost, vs. hank-ons). cheers, John S. On 10/05/2016 07:35 AM, Stanley Wheatley wrote: > The small jib probably is an o.e. working jib which I believe is a 110 on an M17. I don't know about M boats but genoas usually are extra cost options. For hank on sails a 150 is pretty typical so that is probably what you have. > > With our masthead rigs you will get better performance by reefing the main before reducing sail up front so the advice on the sailbag is sound, at least if you have crew. Single handed you might sacrifice a little performance for the convenience of not having to wrestle with the full genoa in a strong breeze. > > Would it be nice to have a sail in between? Of course it would and that is why the deities created roller furling. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 4, 2016, at 4:40 PM, John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> wrote: >> >> Speaking of sails...a few questions about M17 suite of sails. >> >> My M17 from 1974 came with the newer main with three reefs, all good there. >> >> I also got the "small" jib, which indicates on its bag that it is best used with the first reef in the main. It's not a full on storm jib. It does work very well with first reef in main. Also works OK with full main when the "big" jib would be overpowered - speaking of which... >> >> And, I got the "big" jib, which on its bag indicates that it is the "cruising" genoa. I assume (but don't know for sure) that it's the 150% "normal" cruising jib for the M17. >> >> First off, is that the "OEM" set of jibs, those two? >> >> Second off, is there something in between those two, either OEM or that anyone has found appropriate from experience? >> >> It's a pretty big gap between the two, in terms of sail area. Seems like an intermediate size would be more versatile for a range of wind conditions than just the rather small or the very big options...? >> Or maybe I'm missing something basic about the nature of the M17 rig. >> >> Any info/experiences appreciated. >> >> cheers, >> John S. >> >> >>> On 10/04/2016 12:11 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: >>> Yeah, I was pretty pleased to acquire a newer main with three reefs with >>> the boat. >>> So far I've only used the first reef...not sure I want to be out on the >>> water when the third might be required! Glad to have the option though. >>> >>> The 'small' jib has the Reggie Armstrong label on it, yes. It is rather >>> stretched, and flappy in the leach, probably the original. >>> >>> I need to look again at the cruising jib (the big one) as I can't recall >>> what maker was on it if any. I've only used it a few times so far. > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Keeping hats and caps afloat
by Conbert Benneck 06 Oct '16

06 Oct '16

The problem: The wind is blowing; your hat / cap flies off your head into the water while sailing. With a small boat you may be able to come about and retrieve it fairly rapidly, but if you have a larger boat that is slower, it takes some time to retrace your steps and get to the hat / cap, that is now filled with water,and in many cases sinks before you can save it. Another hat has drowned. The Pusser solution was to have two loops of cord on the hat. One in back of your head at your neck; the other under your chin. Now if the hat wanted to go flying the neck or chin tether kept it in place. There is another solution to the problem: add a PFD to the hat / cap. Ping pong balls make great floats on hats; almost weightless; don't deteriorate in the sunshine. Use pieces of your 3 lb onion bagnet as raw material for containing the ping pong ball (s). Make a small net enclosing the ping pong ball (s) and sew it to the brim of a hat, or the top of a cap. It may look funny to landlubbers as you stroll around the waterfront, but you can explain that it prevents hats from visiting Davey Jones and never returning to where they belong; your head. If you want to carry out the nautical theme, paint the ping pong balls red and green and sew them on the brim of your hat in the proper positions. A white one at the stern of the hat should also be considered.Since you are under leg power on shore, a steaming light at the bow would not be out of place. Be nautical; be original Ciao, Connie

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PDFs for hats and caps
by Conbert Benneck 05 Oct '16

05 Oct '16

Another possibility is to use the air filled packaging material as the hat / cap PFD, such as bubble wrap, or the larger air filed pillows. No weight; lots of floation; costs nothing.... Ciao, Connie

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Helpful information
by Conbert Benneck 04 Oct '16

04 Oct '16

Good morning, A friend in Vermont just bought a used VW RV and is modifying and fixing it up. I sent him this comment from the sailboat world to assist, and then thought you might like to know about this too. "Look at Marine Hardware suppliers catalogs: WEST Marine and DEFENDER Industries, in New London, CT for bits and pieces to outfit the camper. You have the same problems as sailors do; everything should have two uses on board. Another interesting source I found was at a Truck Stop in PA. They have a store selling everything you can imagine in small package sizes for truckers to use in their cab living quarters. The also had a lot of 12 volt items; hair dryers; toasters; etc. useful on a boat as well. I always find it strange that the trucker know-how and requirements never spills over to the boat people. They have the same sorts of problems. Stop at one and take a look; you'll be amazed at what they have to offer. (But no gasoline; just diesel fuel for the big boys...) For our 15 foot Montgomery sailboat I had made a Tool Box Galley - everything we needed on the boat for cooking contained in a 19 inch plastic tool box. The boat had no galley at all. Cooking was done in the cockpit, using a plywood berth filler piece as a work surface. It was also great for car trips. We'd stop at a Rest Stop; park; carry our galley to a picnic table; put a tablecloth over the table; put plates and silverware there also, and then enjoy lunch in proper fashion, to the astonishment of others. I got the bits and pieces for the galley box at Goodwill / Salvation Army stores; nesting pots and pans; knives / forks / spoons; nesting plastic cups came from a British Airways flight from Oslo to Berlin. The box was complete with cutting board; kitchen knives; plastic wine glasses; and everything we needed to live elegantly on board. I got a tiny Revere teakettle at the Glastonbury Put-And-Take. (the Town Transfer station for recyclables and garbage). The spout closure rivet was gone. It took me about 5 minutes to fix the problem, and.... it nested in the S/S salad bowl. For a stove we used a restaurant table-top single burner propane stove that was used at the table for making crepes or other table pyrotechnic displays. The stove is square; small; has piezio ignition; and the propane canister is disconnected from the stove when you shut off the burner. Cost about $25 at a Restaurant Supply house.

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Re: M_Boats: Pusser's Rum sailing hats
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 03 Oct '16

03 Oct '16

Re. Hats for sailing - Does it float?? Have you seen it float? Tilley does - actually has floatation in crown -add to your favorite - and others do too - makes a good MOB drill when they part ways with your noggin'. (InterLux hats float - I have seen Craig 'MOB' PaintBoy's hat in the DARK!! mad skills boys. GO

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Pusser's Rum sailing hats
by Conbert Benneck 02 Oct '16

02 Oct '16

Sorry gang, I just checked their website and see that Pusser is not offering their excellent sailing hats any more. All they have are baseball-type caps with Pusser embroidered on the front. Coinnie

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Re: M_Boats: Pusser's Rum sailing hats
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 02 Oct '16

02 Oct '16

Look into a Tilley - the price is stout, but they are warranted for life - pretty much anything is covered _Check this for your own comfort - I have had one replaced due to wear and have two others - well worth the $!! (coming from 'Mr Cheapsuit' hisself) disclaimer - I sold the hell out of them back in the marina operating daze - no longer get them at wholesale (still pricey) When soaked in water it is like A/C for your head in the middle of the Phoenix summers....that is worth it right there for me. Gotta find 'your own' chapeau - mine are -summers = Tilleys and winter is Filson - buy em once and ...... Good luck GO In a message dated 10/2/2016 7:18:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jazzydaze(a)gmail.com writes: Check your local military surplus store for a jungle boonie hat, or the web even. Great sailing hat with a strap to hang it in your back or tighten it into battle mode! Like this, there are many patterns... https://www.google.com/search?q=military+surplus+jungle.hat&safe=off&client= ms-android-verizon&sa=X&biw=360&bih=559&tbs=vw:g,ss:9&tbm=shop&prmd=simvn&sr pd=18267461798406798548&prds=num:1,of:1,paur:ClkAsKra X1KBFYrgyUeptZxLmsijC6aHw9KkZUnyk8msXoSPLiou430tmW_HgabF7I65f_FMs6JR5O0_q_ByzsZSEosDGARdpKYDtc7VQCS 6Xypp0WM-hXTjAxIZAFPVH72mg6TYLnSI9udgNNLenkLPS46Vgg&ved=0ahUKEwj46vHJyL3PAhV J5GMKHcutCcAQgjYI6wMwDA Jazz On Oct 2, 2016 6:18 PM, "Conbert Benneck" <chbenneck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry gang, > > I just checked their website and see that Pusser is not offering their > excellent sailing hats any more. All they have are baseball-type caps with > Pusser embroidered on the front. > > Coinnie > >

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Re: M_Boats: What to do if you want to put an M-boat in Salt water fora time.. - rebuilding hubs
by David Grah 02 Oct '16

02 Oct '16

Yes. Thanks for the reference, Dave. I don't think I pump up my Bearing Buddies too much but I do get some grease coming out of them and getting here and there. It is likely time to replace the seals. One thing I am completely naive about is rebuilding trailer hubs. I assume bearings, bearing races, and seals are all replaceable at the same time and by an amateur such as myself, but I don't have a clue where to get the parts or how to know what to get. I could image the races may require some special equipment. Can anyone share any experiences or provide any advice? Thanks. David GrahBishop CaliforniaMontgomery 15 - Sky Message: 22 Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2016 10:00:02 -0600 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: What to do if you want to put an M-boat in Salt water fora time.. Message-ID: <CAGjBOA4DAwPPp5feTmaf0HMptrzMR0Ada1-SYX4g99EHjZ1osg(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 a double axle trailer for a M17 would be huge overkill. save you money, if you are worried about a double blowout, and get a second spare tire on a mount. also, i would be very surprised if you trailer doesn't already have bearing buddy's. if there is a zerk in the center of the hub you already have them. if not then you don't. DON'T overcharge them. DON'T add oil every time you launch or retrieve. you check the charge by pressing on the edge of the bearing buddy cap (the zerk is installed into the cap). if the cap wiggles when you apply pressure you have enough oil. overcharging a bearing buddy will blow the hub seals ... usually the inner seal. will spray everywhere making a mess of the wheel rim, boat hull, etc. see this for my detailed discussion about bearing buddys and hub maintenance - https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/03/26/safer-trailering-hubs/ :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html

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