July 2009 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: M23 inboards
by SALGLESSER＠aol.com 14 Jul '09

14 Jul '09

Thanx Dave. Thanx Jerry, why Mo' betta? sal In a message dated 7/13/2009 10:15:21 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org writes: That is correct- the 23 was designed for an outboard, and all the ones I made had an outboard bracket. More better, I think. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 inboards my understanding has been only the new cutter M23s have the inboard. the 'old', or classic, M23s were all fitted to use outboards. dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA visit SWEET PEA's www-site: http://www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Sun, 7/12/09, SALGLESSER(a)aol.com <SALGLESSER(a)aol.com> wrote: I noticed that "Dauntless" has an outboard. I believe she is a 1979 model. We have a M23 being built and ours has an inboard. Does Dauntless have an inboard as well? sal _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)

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Re: M_Boats: Practical M17 wine stowage
by JDavies104＠aol.com 14 Jul '09

14 Jul '09

Glad someone's keeping their priorities straight. Enough about death roll broaches, let's tap the barrell! Rick M-17 #633 Lynne L ************** An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585090x1201462820/aol?redir=htt… bcd=JulyExcfooterNO62)

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Re: M_Boats: death roll broach
by Bruce Ward 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

Broaching has to be the least pleasant event in sailing. I experienced one of these death roll broaches in my old Potter 19 years ago and now I always rig a jibe preventer on the downwind leg on our M17 s/v cerulea by attaching a purchase near the end of the boom and clipping to the toe rail forward of the mast. By doing so, the wind should it cross over your quarter and get behind the mainsail it will prevent the dreaded wham of the booms violent crash across the boat and accompanying momentary mayhem.

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Re: M_Boats: death roll broach
by SALGLESSER＠aol.com 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

Hi Chris, Was the board down at the time? Would the board being up or down have made a difference? sal In a message dated 7/13/2009 10:46:46 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, chris.r.smith(a)gmail.com writes: Just talked to one of my passengers and she thought that the boom didn't cross the cockpit until we we were already in the water. I'm thinking there was a broach and, combined with the weight distribution, the deathroll. Fortunately, it seemed we went over before the boom swung over into the water and there was no damage to the rigging or hardware. The knockdown was quick, too. After we were all in the water, I swam around to the other side and pulled just a bit on the keel and the boat popped right back up. No one was hurt, and now, a couple days after the fact, they've developed good senses of humor about it. again, <chuckle> Chris On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Joe Murphy <seagray(a)embarqmail.com> wrote: > Hey Everybody!!! Read what Dave sent. And don't forget your preventer!! > Thanks for digging this up, Dave. > Joe > Seafrog > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 11:58 AM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: death roll broach > > > > sounds like you experienced a 'death roll broach' - > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_roll > > > dave scobie > M17 #375 - SWEET PEA > > --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I had a little knockdown event this past weekend with some first time > sailors and I fear I scared them away from sailing for a while... :( The > odd thing about it was that we were traveling down wind with the main at > 60deg to starboard and we tipped over to port! I'm thinking it was > something to do with weight distribution (it didn't help that I was putting > on my shirt at that moment and couldn't see what happened...). > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > -- Chris _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)

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Re: M_Boats: M23 rigging
by bownez＠juno.com 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

Thanks Jerry, See, your memory IS fine..... Good day sir. Bones ____________________________________________________________ Click here for great quotes from top international movers! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTMAuP89clvwaWvY1TlCGrzAAD…

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San Juan Cruise dreaming...
by Michael Ray Wisely 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

So, my wife Wendy is from Seattle and this will make her homesick. I've sailed the San Juans on a 22 Ericson?...as a day sailor. Looks like you had some wind as well as the typical calms that make the Islands a kind of Banana Belt of the NW. Maybe sometime we will actually come up and do it instead of just thinking how great it would be. Best to you, Michael Ray, Wendy and Olivia. Molly M. M17 383

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Re: M_Boats: death roll broach
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

Folks, I don't believe a preventer will 'prevent' a deathroll. The act of the unintentional gybe is brought on by the oscillating nature of the rig. Raising the centerboard and a sharp tug on the mainsheet (quick/large), accompanied by heading the boat upwind will usually stave off the gybe to weather. Sometimes people in the boat will 'assist' in the rolling by trying to counteract the movement - albeit out of sync, the first defense is to get the board up - almost all the way up, and keep the boat on a bit more of a reach. Sailing on a run - unless absolutely necessary - is slow, hard work (paying attention to the above items) and can cause additional excitement and induce unexpected expenses. (broken bits) - easier to reach up just a bit - better speed, FAR more stable and keep those passengers comfy and safe. Having grown up sailing dinghies, I have many times capsized to waether on a run - took about 50 times before we saw the light. Now we be reachin' fools with full sails, good speed and stability! Be careful using a preventer - they can cause damage to a rig - major damage. Be careful with your cranium too - or you may end up like this guy rattling on about seriously esoteric subjects in an unsolicited manner. Take Care,Have Fun, Go Sailing GO too hot to sail here. In a message dated 7/13/2009 9:22:25 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, seagray(a)embarqmail.com writes: Hey Everybody!!! Read what Dave sent. And don't forget your preventer!! Thanks for digging this up, Dave. Joe Seafrog ----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 11:58 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: death roll broach sounds like you experienced a 'death roll broach' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_roll dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith(a)gmail.com> wrote: I had a little knockdown event this past weekend with some first time sailors and I fear I scared them away from sailing for a while... :( The odd thing about it was that we were traveling down wind with the main at 60deg to starboard and we tipped over to port! I'm thinking it was something to do with weight distribution (it didn't help that I was putting on my shirt at that moment and couldn't see what happened...). _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************Summer concert season is here! Find your favorite artists on tour at TourTracker.com. (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000006)

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Re: M_Boats: death roll broach
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

I was referring to Jerry's comment about 'liberals' and his strong bias against inboard engines! - hey every body needs some love. Even inboarders ! (this is to be taken in the spirit of "FUN") PS I personally would not own an inboard engine - chuck it and sail! GO In a message dated 7/13/2009 11:25:14 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org writes: No, he was talking about Tom. I've told him about Tom. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Smith" <chris.r.smith(a)gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 11:14 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: death roll broach > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Tom Smith <openboatt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I believe Gary is referring to himself, Joe. t >> > > whew. close one. Could have been any one of us there... :) > > yeah, that's the second time in 4-5 years that I've gotten anywhere near a > knockdown. The first time was even more silly. I was trying to go as > fast > and I could on a close haul and couldn't round out of a heel... Of > course, > that was in the first year or so that I had my boat, so I was still > figuring > out it's limits. After that I thought I had it figured out - good to know > I > can be taught more by my M15... Keeps it interesting! > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats >> >> Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! >> > > > > -- > Chris > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************Summer concert season is here! Find your favorite artists on tour at TourTracker.com. (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000006)

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Re: M_Boats: death roll broach
by Nebwest2＠aol.com 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

I'll throw in my two cents worth on the "death roll". This is just my take on it. I know that there are a lot of opinions, of which this is only one. This is just how we do it on "Dauntless". If the wind is piping up and I feel the boat carrying too much weather helm when running downwind there are two things I do to alleviate it and lessen the boat's tendency to want to head up, oscillate, or "death roll". She wants to head up because as the wind pipes up there is now too much drive on the back of the boat with a full main. The rig is "unbalanced" The extra drive on the stern is trying to force the back of the boat away from the wind more then it is on the bow, thus forcing the boats bow to pivot back up into the wind. Add to that the fact that quite often you are taking quartering swells on the upwind stern quarter which are hitting the transom before the bow and also trying to rotate the boat and now you have your hands full. Pretty soon if I don't do anything I'll find myself pumping the rudder back and forth, trying to turn the bow off the wind as the swell hits the stern and then as the swell passes under the boat, back the other way to keep from turning off the wind too much and crash jibing. This set's up a rhythmic rocking of the boat, that in rough conditions will continue to increase in amplitude and frequency, especially if you fall out of rhythm with the rudder for even a split second. Add to that, having the swing keel fully down and now you have the keel down there also making lift trying to assist the rolling motion of the boat. AND, I don't know if you've noticed it or not, but if you roll a Monty on it's side you present a different hull section to the water and cause it to want to turn even more, so when you roll the boat, she wants to turn away from the direction of the roll. On our boat anyway, this is pronounced enough that I can steer the boat in calm conditions with the tiller lashed on center and motoring by standing in the companionway and leaning my weight to port or starboard. Just the small amount of heel I induce is enough to make the boat turn in the opposite direction from what I have heeled it. Add a 15 or 20 degree roll into that equation and she really wants to turn. I only speak for myself, but my understanding of the situation and solution is #1: REEF IT ...right now. Reefing the main will get the drive off the back of the boat and get the rig loads back towards being balanced. It will move the center of effort of the sail rig forward and help to drive the bow off the wind without so much rudder input. The weather helm will decrease dramatically and the boat's response to the rudder improves immensely. She'll stay on her feet better too and eliminate some of the helm corrections needed to correct for the rolling motion. Most of the time, for me anyway, this makes the biggest difference. I follow that up by partially retracting the swing keel. I don't need lateral resistance like I do to go upwind because I am reaching/running. One of the really neat features of the Monty's swing keel shape is that the quadrant retracts it loses more surface area off the back of the keel then it does off the front . That moves the center of lateral resistance on the hull and thus decreases the tendency for the bow to round up to windward. Remember, the keel is what makes lift and drives the boat to windward. Decrease the amount of lift it's making by decreasing its surface area, it makes less lift and decreases the tendency to roll and round up. On big board windsurfers, once the wind comes up they completely retract the centerboard and go can go upwind just fine on the lift that the little skeg makes. Putting the centerboard down at high speed actually causes the board to rotate along its longitudinal axis up onto its side because of all the lift that the centerboard is making. It will actually roll the board completely on its side like a knife edge, as well as try to make the board round up. I used to sail quite a bit with symmetrical spinnakers which are famous for experiencing violent death rolls if allowed to misbehave on a deep reach or run. What I learned with them transfers across and I think Gary O already brought it up. If I feel that and out of control roll (broach, death roll, whatever) is approaching , because the rolling that I am experiencing is continuing to increase in amplitude and/or frequency, the thing I do immediately is to change up the heading of the boat. Allowing the boat to head up a few degrees and trimming the sails to the new higher point of sail will usually break the rhythm immediately and allow me to get things under control by getting reefed and board adjusted. Trying to muscle the boat into compliance by brute force on the tiller has almost always led to the oscillation increasing and an unwanted round-up, roll,crash jibe, and/or generally just a real unpleasant experience for everyone involved. For many years when I though of having to reef, I thought of conditions that I was scared to be out in. That was until I finally did it, and set my boat up so that doing it was easily and safely accomplished. After that, I realized that a properly tucked reef and good boat control takes a day that would have used to scare the bejeezes out of me and makes it fun, and I mean a lot of fun. One thing I never thought of before I experienced it was sailing with a reefed main and very small headsail is easy. A little tiny headsail is SOOOO much easier to tack over then a big genny that you won't be able to appreciate it until you try it. Even though you are sailing in higher winds, sail loads are decreased back to loads that are comparable to what you usually experience. BUT you have to take the time and spend the $$ to set the boat upright. If you take a 17, 15, or even a 23 out in higher winds without the ability to reef properly ,or with too big of a headsail you are doing yourself and the boat a disservice. With the proper headsail size, board control, and reefed properly, meaning not only pulling the sail down part way, but having the hardware on the mast a boom set up properly to tension the luff, foot, AND leach of the sail, these boats will handle A LOT, safely and enjoyably. I can't emphasize "reefed properly" enough. A sloppy reef with a loose scalloped luff, loose foot, or flogging leach will not get you anywhere and will probably damage your sail or slugs. Reef it properly, get it flat, and de-powered and you'll have total control again. Eventually, if the wind just continues to build, yes, it still can get a little scary. But if you allow the boat to work for you rather than against you, the wind level at which "fun" stops and "survival" begins goes way up. And hey, if you don't have to check your shorts at least once in a while......................you're not livin'!! hehehe Gradually pushing your comfort zone, within reason, will make your confidence level soar and the fun quotient goes through the roof. So, Go ahead, put that toe rail in the water. Just do it under control! Wow! Just read all that blah, blah ,blah, I just wrote.....more like 7 cents worth! :-) Sail on! Sean Montgomery 23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com) **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003)

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Re: M_Boats: death roll broach
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 13 Jul '09

13 Jul '09

ABsolutely ! ! GO In a message dated 7/13/2009 11:09:43 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, openboatt(a)gmail.com writes: I believe Gary is referring to himself, Joe. t _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************Summer concert season is here! Find your favorite artists on tour at TourTracker.com. (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000006)

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