May 2009 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Designing an Monty-style boat
by Brian Gilbert 14 May '09

14 May '09

Hi Jerry This sounds like fun! Is this going to be for yourself, or will it be a commercially-available option? Speaking for myself, my Monty is easily the best boat I've ever owned. Lyle is a designer after my own heart... this boat sails and handles like a dream. I have lots of confidence in the design. But there are a few things I wish I could have that would be different. The main thing is the cabin size... mine is a '79 dinette model... I wish I had a cabin that was big enough for two people to sit and have a cup of coffee in the rain, with some sort of table... it wouldn't have to be permanent, could be folding or removable. I know this means a larger boat... say, 19-20 feet or so. But there's no way I'll ever be able to afford a 23, and that's about my only other Hess option. I'd spend a lot more time on my boat if I could set up a desk of sorts, and read or write. I know, it can be done after a fashion on my 17, but I'd prefer a designed option, rather than my usual cobbled- together solutions. The Monty cockpit is another very strong point, and the high coamings forward give me a real feeling of security, BUT... I would have definitely molded in a small bridgedeck under the traveller. This would prevent water form heading below should the scuppers get clogged, and you've got to step over the traveller to go below anyway. One of my hairbrained small-business schemes would be to build a small female mold for a bridgedeck/storage locker to add as an aftermarket upgrade for these boats... one that can be caulked into place (so that the next buyer can revert it back to stock, if he/she doesn't like my "improvement." I bet I'd sell four, maybe even five whole units! Move over, Beneteau, we're takin' over the sailboat market!) On second thought, maybe I'll just do a one-off fiberglass over-foam. If you're designing from scratch, another thing I'd ask the designer to do if at all possible. Make all spaces at least big enough for your hand. Specifically, I'm thinking of when I had to replace the traveller. The top surface of the liner nearly touches the bottom of the deck, making access to the traveller bolts very difficult unless the hull and deck are separated. Try to think ahead ten or even twenty years, when the boat's systems have to be repaired or replaced, and leave access space. (even if you can't put in all the access hatches you'd like because of the cost, try to design them in and leave the installation up to the final owner. Run wiring and plumbing in the upper corner of a liner, and keep the center area clear so a jigsaw blade can penetrate.) I know this isn't always practical and certainly complicates things, but designing for longevity is an important goal in terms of resource management and it'll help the resale. I know you had this in mind when you molded the 17, and left solid fiberglass where bolts pass through the deck. That's probably why my boat still has a solid deck core after all these years. Thanks! Keep us posted on the project, it's great fun to be involved in the design-and-dreaming phase. Best BG Brian Gilbert Author, Fix It And Sail, The Complete Trailer Sailer On May 13, 2009, at 9:51 PM, montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > strake:? How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in > this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a > smooth hull?? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count.? > People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) > and they can see that it's stiffer- a

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Re: M_Boats: market research
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 14 May '09

14 May '09

Jerry, My 2 cents. Cockpit same length or longer than 17 (weight out of stern) Light boat (maybe H2O ballast augmented with similar keel/CB combo) vehicles are not likely to be getting bigger. Maybe - it is a wild one- cat ketch or another version of split rig -light spars (carbon, maybe multi-piece,boom less sails) Simple, and light, please look at a Catbird 16 - cmdboats.com, Herreshoff's 'Coquina', and Comm. Munroes 'Egret' ( I know it won't work at 55% but d*mn cool if it did!) , Or a 16-18' version with the qualities of 'Rozinante' -no small task! 1 more vote for wrinkle - boat. Are you thinking of a minimal cruiser or a mini- cruising boat? Please just make sure it does not look like Sean's camper - that sucker will NOT go to weather worth a _d@mn_ (mailto:d@mn) ! Wait , I got it! An International 110 canoe with a vertically retracting keel and a 'blister house' for a porta-potti cover,really LONG tiller extension for single handers. (LOL) halyard to spreaders for keel retractor,flattened bulb at tip of fin for keel, and one of them 16" tall "Do-It-All" lights at the masthead (okay - kiddin bout the light). Dead serious bout the other features. That there might haul the mail! And it has a flat floor for sleeping. Actually I think you already have a good idea spinning around 'in there' GO Shoot- I still need to repair my tiller - they really don't make good seats! In a message dated 5/13/2009 12:26:00 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org writes: Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org. jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=htt…)

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Re: M_Boats: market research
by Nebwest2＠aol.com 14 May '09

14 May '09

My thoughts are that the 15 and 17 are so close in size that a 16 would fall right in the middle and can only differ so much just due to size constraints. I vote for something between the 23 and 17. Maybe a 19 or 20?? As for lapstrake....c'mon, are you kidding me??? A Montgomery without lapstrake would be like thunder without lightning!! Of course it has to be lapstrake! (imho) Other things I'd love to see (without taking into consideration the costs) 1. go back to the metal perforated toerail. Very functional and no upkeep like the teak. 2. return to the Quadrant swing keel 3. All lead ballast Just my 2 cents! Sean M23 "Dauntless" www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222627952x1201458914/aol?redir=htt…)

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Re: M_Boats: market research
by W David Scobie 14 May '09

14 May '09

yesterday i went to visit my M17 (she is wet stored at the moment for 'new to me' sea trials). in the hour i was doing tasks at the dock i had a person give me a yell, "nice clinker boat!" i responded she wasn't a true clinker, but a fiberglass build. he needed to make closer inspection of the boat to believe the boat was plastic and not wood. THAT states the feeling that the classic 'montgomery lapstrake' hull catches the eye and look LIKE A BOAT. my comments for a 16' - * more ballast * from a pacific NW perspective more cabin size over cockpit. * common comment - some form of forward vent for airflow * keep the v-berth. my size makes a 1/4 berth an uncomfortable option (i never looked at the mid-cabin 1/4 berth boats for just this reason). * no compression post. yes, the M15's v-berth is more comfortable than the M17s. * i love the amount of storage space SCRED, my M15, has because the cockpit locker liners have been removed. as much as possible make cockpit lockers deep and large. think also of later access to the transom for repair of the outboard mount and addition of boarding ladder. * sitting headroom. something allowing one to sit on the v-berth upright. doing this will also allow one to sit, instead of 'crouch' on the potti. * i disagree with only a skeg keel. the M15s ability to go to wind cannot be lost. options: centerboard & skeg keel or fixed keel? think of the improvement! the fixed keel 17s are great. * backstay would be be nice (at the expense of easy rigging) hard to 'let go of' the idea of a 19-20 foot Mboat ... a good 'fix' for 17 owners with 2'-disease. dave scobie M17 #375 - sweet pea (http://www.m17-375.webs.com) M15 #288 - SCRED (for sale, http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred) --- On Wed, 5/13/09, jerry <jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org> wrote: Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org. jerry

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Re: M_Boats: Jerry's Market Research
by Michael Ray Wisely 14 May '09

14 May '09

Hi Jerry and the Group... Wouldn't that be great...another heavy duty, classic performance sailing boat. Jerry, my $2 (2 cents adjusted for inflation). When I look for a boat, I want to see classic lines, something that looks salty and like a real boat. It also needs to be safe and sail well. That is the reason I went with a Monty. There were plenty of other boats out there that were cheaper and had a following, but what it came down to was sea-worthy, sail-ability, re-sale-ability and saltiness. I've been around boats my whole life and living on and maintaining classic wooden boats for 15 years. Once we moved on land, my wife and I began the process of listing what I wanted in a small sailing vessel. The average person...I've got no idea what the average person likes and I care less and less as I get older. The "average" person buys a price point and then lets the boat rot in it's slip after a season of use. They like "Macgreagor's" an Capri's and and other such boats. (Not to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm sure these boats have there good points, but they are not what you call classic or salty) A Lapstrake hull automatically says classic, strong, tradition. Give me a lapstrake hull, bronze ports, thoughtful layout, some fine woodwork (in just a few spots), maybe a little marlin-spiking, a comfortable cockpit and sleeping areas and good upwind performance and you've got my attention. More than that, have captured the sailors spirit in me. I bought a used Monty that needed quite a lot of work and had old sails over several larger boats that were well outfitted and cost less. It was all in the reputation, the beauty and thoughtfulness of the design and the way the boat felt when I gripped the tiller in 20kts. My other favorite small glass boat is a Flicka 20. Not lapstrake, but definitely salty with a reputation for safe passage making. I always felt that when someone captured the feel and grace of a wood classic, the strength and ease of F/G and added real performance to the equation, they would have a boat whose reputation would persevere for many many years and provide real value for peoples lives. I love sailing alone or taking out others on Molly M. Always at some point another sailor will comment on her good looks or reputation and later when we are sailing hard to weather I appreciate that she can take as much or more than I can. ONE Complaint/ One suggestion The only things I don't like about my vintage Monty is the Iron CB. Wish someone would make a F/G/lead or HDPE CB for the Old Monty's. I've got a pinky finger that will never be the same after losing an argument with one. And I wish the V-berth was a little more comfortable for my wife and I to sleep...Like maybe if the cabin was strong enough to have a removable post for when the boat is not under sail...that would make it much more comfortable. Inboard electric motor with a cabin top of solar cells for charging? Now I'm just dreaming... Thanks for all of your collective comments on this post. Michael Ray Wisely and Family Molly M. #383 SF Bay

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Re: M_Boats: your end boom mainsheet
by eisenee＠aol.com 14 May '09

14 May '09

At present I don't have pics but can probably get some within the next week. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322936x1201367173/aol?redir=htt… =Mayfooter51209NO115)

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open letter to Bob Eeg
by jerry 13 May '09

13 May '09

Bob- what do you intend to do about Sal's 23? You may look at this as none of my business, but you're harming my good name and that matters to me. This is far from the first time I have been contacted by your buyers who have similar problems, and until now I've tried to stay out of things, explaining that I have nothing to do with you or your business and offering sympathy and suggestions but nothing else. I know that I've heard only one side of the story, but if you indeed stopped work on Sal's boat two years ago when it was paid off I think that's inexcusable and sorry, but I think it's time the whole world knew about it. If you have a good reason for this behavior, let's hear it. Please send any response to the list to keep it in the open, and if you send the response to me only, you can expect me to forward it to the list at my option. jerry

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Regarding another size of Montgomery boat
by David C. Patterson 13 May '09

13 May '09

With response to Jerry floating the idea of a boat intermediate between a 15 and a 17: what I fantasize about is not a boat in there in the lineup, but something bigger than a 17. There is a lot of distance (and volume) between a 17 and a 23. Picture this.a cockpit the size of a 17, a longer waterline, a smaller tow size than a 23, interior space to vary organization of (longer side berths to act as benches for 4, a slide out table under the vee berth, or some sort of galley arrangement to port?), and a pleasing lapstrake hull. You know, a Monty-style boat of about 19 or 20 feet. Just daydreaming. David M17 #393

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Halyard line
by Andrei Caldararu 13 May '09

13 May '09

Hello all, I am looking to replace my old wire-to-rope halyards with all-rope ones. The ones I would be buying would be from New England Ropes, Sta- Set, and I would need some advice on how thick a line I should go with. Would 1/4 be enough, or 5/16, or do I need thicker line? These lines have tensile strengths of 2000lbs (1/4) and 3000lbs (5/16). Does anyone know what the newer boats come with? Also, has anyone measured their masts (I assume I need about twice the length of the mast for the length of the halyard). Thanks, Andrei.

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Easy Loader trailer
by flickasf＠aol.com 12 May '09

12 May '09

For some reason when I post a question it does not appear on line. ?My M 15 is on an Easy Loader trailer. ?(I previously tried to post and mistakenly called it an Easy Rider trailer. ) ?Have any of you who have the same trailer had any trouble with your boat as a result of not having the keel rest on anything? Thank you, Bert Felton Zephyr, M 15, #365

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