March 2005 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

political discussion
by Rick Langer 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

Friends, I think we live in a country that doesn't love it's people. It doesn't matter who's red or who's blue. It's about us against them, those in power, not us against us. I support political statements, where appropriate and do not support personal attacks. When we make statements about winners and losers or accuse someone of being angry and hostile or disrespectful, it hurts and then someone needs to retaliate. Scott Grometer wrote two excellent post. I wanted to ask whoever was in charge of the archives if they would consider putting his description of the qualities of the M15 in the archives. Now I think his statements on political discussions should be archived. Let's all read it again. Just one of us, Rick Langer Scott's post ; Hello All, I have been a member of this list almost since its inception, and I have to say that I am troubled by the political exchange of recent days. My primary concern is that such discussions, while arguably very important in the proper context, will have a chilling effect on our group as a whole. My guess is that the demographics of this list will likely mirror somewhat those of the country at large--a near 50/50 partisan split. With ever increasing enmity and polarization in society, we need ask if these trends are what we want to see manifest in a group focused on the common admiration and enjoyment of our small sailboats. Furthermore, I think it is important to ponder the potential effects of publicly characterizing a list member--or by extension/affiliation--a group of list members. While for some, glib one liners or snippy pejorative titles might fall into the category of playful bantering, others (myself included) might be deeply sensitive to/offended by the same. I can offer one personal example of how this might in turn affect our otherwise amicable exchange: I was considering the upcoming San Juan/Gulf Island rendezvous when a particular posting (offensive to me) arrived in my mail box. I asked myself honestly what I would do if the sender were to be a participant in this rendezvous. The honest answer was that I would avoid him, and probably not be warmly receptive to any of his further input. This would be a shame, really, as I have enjoyed the information and stories shared by this individual over the years, and I am sure that we could find considerable common ground outside of politics. Am I too sensitive? Maybe, but I suspect there are more than a few on this list who would react similarly. So, while it perhaps bucks the current tendencies of our society and partisan politics, I would make a plea that we preserve this list as a sanctuary for our beloved pastime of our boats and sailing. I don't in any way mean to suggest that political discourse is irrelevant. Those on this list who know me well are amply aware that I have my own pronounced political and/or personal passions. Nor am I at all unsympathetic to wanting to find the reinforcement and validation of politically like-minded individuals. I would only ask that, for purposes of harmony, we focus on that of which we are truly like-minded--the world of M-Boats and sailing in general. I believe it is incumbent upon all of us to extend individuals the same respect in cyberspace as we would in person. Doing so would serve our list well. Thank you for your consideration, Scott Grometer

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Re: M_Boats: Web Site Forward
by chbenneck＠juno.com 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

Hi Rik, If you want answers to your questions, the early books by the Hiscox's describing their travels, and later those of the Pardeys, plus Hal Roth, discuss the financial aspect of round the world cruising. ........or of long term cruising. The Hiscox's wrote articles for sailing magazines, and later, books about their voyages. The royalty income from their books (and income from lectures) was enough for them to build a larger boat in steel, - about 45' as I recall - and later a smaller one - about 36' long in Australia which was their final vessel. The Pardeys, sailed, wrote articles and later books about their travels, and now give lectures, as well. Larry Pardey, having built both of their boats, could probably find work as a shipbuilder wherever they dropped anchor. Larry didn't install an engine in their boats, because of cost; complications; and the space that was needed for the installation, which could be use to better advantage. Hal and Margaret Roth, as I recall from their early books, didn't have any great incomes. They had enough to buy a good ship, equip it, and then went sailing, living frugally as they went. They too, wrote books and articles for a cash income. Tanya Abbi (sp?) went around the world solo in a 25 foot sail boat, and she didn't have an independent income. She too wrote articles for sailing magazines, and if my memory serves me, for the National Geographic, and sent in photographs of her voyage to pay the bills. CRUISING magazine continually has news of couples that are crossing the Atlantic or Pacific, and their boats range from fairly primitive but adequate for the job, to expensive boats with every imaginable piece of equipment and convenience. The one couple does it with a boat that costs $30,000, and lives frugally, while the other needs a boat that costs $150,000, and wants to eat in expensive restaurants in every port. Both get to their destinations, but with large differences in monthly "cruising" costs. Connie

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Re: M_Boats: Sailing Yarns
by chbenneck＠juno.com 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

Oh, Mark, I forgot to mention another lesson learned the hard way with my swamped dinghy. Don't just slide the oars in the bottom of the boat. Oars are made of wood, and wood floats. I lost one of the oars somewhere astern before I found I had a lovely sea anchor. Have you ever tried rowing a dinghy with just one oar? .........and with no sculling notch at the stern? So, fasten masts, booms, and oars to a thwart with a good bungee cord for safety. Connie

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political discussion
by htmills＠bright.net 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

Scott, Good post, and they mirror my sentiments and reactions exactly. A few years ago, I went sailing with a visiting M-boater and we had a pleasant afternoon. Since then, I've lost interest in any camaraderie with him (and likely him with me) because I've seen how our political opinions diverge so widely and have drawn the conclusion that he most likely considers me an idiot for my political views. Why would I wish to fellowship with someone who holds such an opinion of me? I'd have to be a desperate masochist of some sort. Or at least an idiot. ;-) So, yes, expressing opinions that are: a) likely very personally disagreeable to others b) largely irrelevant to the topic of this list are indeed, divisive. I should have refrained from a couple of posts there and apologize. Happy sailing, Tod Mills P.S. btw, I don't believe the person in my illustration is a subscriber to this list.

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Re: M_Boats: A little advice & info please?
by TOMMYVAL＠aol.com 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

M Listers I need to replace my rudder post on a 1993 M 17 and was wondering if anyone had any ideas where I may be able to purchase one or have one made. Bob has contacted the original manufacturer (Thank you Bob!!) to see about getting a replacement but so far has had no luck. Hopefully the manufacturer will come through but I'm starting to get behind the eight ball and would like to see what other options are available. Any and all thoughts are appreciated. Thanks Gary

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Re: M_Boats: milk crates
by JazzYachts＠aol.com 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

>>>>>>>I use a rectangular laundry basket in my M17 for the anchor and rode. The flexibility of the basket works well. >>>>>>>>> I found a rectangular bucket that I used for the anchor rode on my M15. The bucket-style hoop handle made it easy to move around. John C. Harris Chesapeake Light Craft "The Best Boats You Can Build" _http://www.clcboats.com_ (http://www.clcboats.com) (Sighing with relief that the....er...diversion on this list seems to be over. This is the ONLY list I still subscribe to, largely because of its essential civility. It was a near thing.)

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Re: M_Boats: milk crates
by bownez＠juno.com 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

Tod, I use a rectangular laundry basket in my M17 for the anchor and rode. The flexibility of the basket works well. Bones ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!

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Catalina and Sant Cruz trips
by Norm Bundek 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

Include me in the Catalina trip! My 3hp Evinrude pushes my M15 at 5.5 mph at 3/4 speed according to my GPS. So Catalina seems doable even for a "newbie". (Thanks for the advise about motoring Bob) The learning experience sounds great. I will need a better anchor however. I have a small West Marine type with a slip ring on the shank. The West Marine catalog says it's only good for a lunch stop. Any suggestions for a Catalina type anchorage? I'm up for Santa Cruz also, but I don't remember who was ready to be our "captain". I'll be happy to arrange these types of trips next year. Norm M15 #172

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Re: M_Boats: A plea regarding political and/or personal opinions
by Frederick M Berthrong 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

Well Said, Scott, Fred Dulce M17 #300 On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:51:54 EST Wilsometer(a)aol.com writes: > Hello All, > I have been a member of this list almost since its inception, and I > have to > say that I am troubled by the political exchange of recent days. > > My primary concern is that such discussions, while arguably very > important in > the proper context, will have a chilling effect on our group as a > whole. My > guess is that the demographics of this list will likely mirror > somewhat those > of the country at large--a near 50/50 partisan split. With ever > increasing > enmity and polarization in society, we need ask if these trends are > what we want > to see manifest in a group focused on the common admiration and > enjoyment of > our small sailboats. > > Furthermore, I think it is important to ponder the potential effects > of > publicly characterizing a list member--or by > extension/affiliation--a group of list > members. While for some, glib one liners or snippy pejorative > titles might > fall into the category of playful bantering, others (myself > included) might be > deeply sensitive to/offended by the same. > > I can offer one personal example of how this might in turn affect > our > otherwise amicable exchange: I was considering the upcoming San > Juan/Gulf Island > rendezvous when a particular posting (offensive to me) arrived in my > mail box. I > asked myself honestly what I would do if the sender were to be a > participant > in this rendezvous. The honest answer was that I would avoid him, > and > probably not be warmly receptive to any of his further input. This > would be a shame, > really, as I have enjoyed the information and stories shared by this > > individual over the years, and I am sure that we could find > considerable common ground > outside of politics. Am I too sensitive? Maybe, but I suspect > there are more > than a few on this list who would react similarly. > > So, while it perhaps bucks the current tendencies of our society and > partisan > politics, I would make a plea that we preserve this list as a > sanctuary for > our beloved pastime of our boats and sailing. I don't in any way > mean to > suggest that political discourse is irrelevant. Those on this list > who know me > well are amply aware that I have my own pronounced political and/or > personal > passions. Nor am I at all unsympathetic to wanting to find the > reinforcement and > validation of politically like-minded individuals. I would only ask > that, for > purposes of harmony, we focus on that of which we are truly > like-minded--the > world of M-Boats and sailing in general. > > I believe it is incumbent upon all of us to extend individuals the > same > respect in cyberspace as we would in person. Doing so would serve > our list well. > > Thank you for your consideration, > > Scott Grometer > M15 #478 > Flicka #392 > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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Ian: RE Montgomery 15
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 19 Mar '05

19 Mar '05

In a message dated 3/17/05 6:00:27 PM, montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com writes: > am very interested in the Montgomery 15. I have been sailing on >San Francisco Bay for many years (my most recent boat was a Petersen >44). I want to find about owners' evaluations of the Montgomery 15, >particularly its performance in the high winds of SF Bay. I live in >Berkeley and would greatly appreciate hearing from you. >Coirdially, Ian Arion Ian, Thought I would chime in here regarding the suitability of the M15 to SF Bay. I have an M15, and have sailed the SF bay frequently (more on Bert Felton's old M15 than mine, as he dry-sailed his out of Alameda). I also 'came down' from much larger boats, so I might be able to speak to that adjustment. First, let me say that a properly equipped M15 can handle most of what the bay can dish out. We (Bert and I) have been out in 30-35 with gusts to 40, and with the usual sloppy, steep chop that accompanies an ebb running counter to the wind between Alcatraz and the Golden Gate Bridge. Properly equipped in this case includes two reefs, a storm jib, and some stern resolve. A stern rail and lifelines would certainly be a plus. These would not be the conditions for a neophyte sailor, but that said, the M15 is a remarkably seaworthy boat for its size and displacement, and handled properly, can be relatively safe, very fast, and quite exhilarating. It is also an amazingly dry boat on account of the lapstrake hull form (this really works!). I have been asked several times to describe the M15's handling and general feel. It defies easy description. At times the boat feels like a very solid keelboat. At other times it feels like a large sailing dinghy. Most of the time it feels like some combination of the two--which is to say that it combines a modicum of stability and comfort with some of that live/twitchy motion that is typical of live-ballasted dinghies. Sail trim and balance are important. Several on this list have encountered knockdowns, or near knockdowns either while overcanvassed, or during a sudden gust. I don't always tend to sail mine right to the edge as I might a larger boat, or at least not when I lack experienced crew or am singlehanding. I reef early if there is any question. When the wind is up/gusty, I often want the mainsheet in hand--much as I would in a dinghy. It is not (at least not in typical bay conditions) the kind of boat where you set an autopilot and read a book. Crew weight is definitely a factor, and you need to be constantly alert. Off the wind, things settle down substantially. One of the rewards of this boat's light displacement and flat underbody is that she will plane/semi-plane, and she is responsive to small trim adjustments. I bought mine with the intention of using her as a micro-cruiser more than a day sailor. We have done several longer trips (primarily Pacific Northwest), and found her perfect as long as we adjusted our expectations to the 'backpacking-on-water' model. Our success in this capacity is directly relative to the good weather we have been fortunate to experience. I would not relish a long, continuous trip in rainy weather, as the M15 does not offer much in the way of seating options below (on the head with the hatch open is about it). My decision to pursue an M15 rather than an M17 was solely based on two criteria, namely my garage capacity and my then 4-cylinder pickup. I don't have any regrets, but I have also since purchased a second boat (Flicka)--in large measure because I was looking to do longer trips in increased comfort, occasionally in the company of friends. The M15 is very capable, but it is certainly intimate. I think that if my primary goal was to downsize, and my primary sailing area was to be SF Bay, I would lean toward the M17 rather than M15. I don't have a lot of experience with the M17, but my observations in sailing with them (side-by-side), and my comparison to their interior accommodations suggest that they might be more appropriate--especially if you are used to a larger boat. I think the difference in displacement (the 17 is exactly twice that of the 15) will be noticeable in the heavy air conditions of the bay, and I would guess the motion would be a bit more predictable and less lively. I would definitely favor the M17 if sailing with more than two people is a priority, or if your crew is easily frightened by what can be a 'live' motion. In any event, I would try to get a ride on both prior to deciding. I know there are at least two M17's out of Alameda--one sailed out of Grand Marina, and another dry-sailed out of Alameda Marina. There are several M15's that frequent the bay. I can say with some confidence that either boat is at the top of their respective class. I don't see many (if any) other boats of their size out on the bay when the wind comes up! The construction is first-rate, and I am inclined to think that they can generally take more than the crew. Best wishes on your quest! Scott

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