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11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results
by tdelacy＠wavecable.com 22 Nov '21

22 Nov '21

For and about Montgomery Sailboats, Update: The boat is off the trailer, the center board is removed as well as approximately 9 lbs of steel ballast from the starboard shoal keel just forward of the center board pivot pin. Question: If I am successful in sealing the shoal keel water leaks, what do you think the probability that steel ballast will continue to rust and expand resulting in future cracks? Background: 1. The shoal keel that I have opened is dry. 2. The ballast is very cohesive. Some of the punchings have actually fused into solid lumps. 3. Port side is not cracked. 3. I am concerned with the amount of shoal keel skin that I would need to remove for ballast access it will be difficult to retain the shoal keel shape. 4. For my current situation, it is actually easier to obtain lead shot to replace the steel ballast. Because lead density is 1.44 times greater than steel, I believe I will have a noticeable lower CG on the starboard side if I only replace ballast on the starboard side. Tim de Lacy Waterbound Hull # MMP 173320981 -----Original Message----- From: tdelacy(a)wavecable.com <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 8:13 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results Bob, 1. Re: Drilled hole - no water. A. However, water intrusion is not unreasonable, if there was a path into the shoal keel. B. From the time the tree fell until I was able to relocate the trailer into a replacement metal tube and fabric structure was several months during our raining season. (1) I did have to pump water out of the sump. (2) I did have an amazing amount of water trapped in my tarp covering the boat and in the cockpit. (3) My fabric structure is dark green and is several degrees warmer than the outside temperature. a. Combine the elevated interior temperature with our unusually hot summer and it is not unreasonable to assume the shoal keel has dried out. 2. Re: picture P8230005. A. This is just aft of the centerboard trunk in hull, starboard side, similar port side. B. Is this a possible water path into the shoal keel? (1) Water could easily enter this opening after the sump filled. (1) Should I seal these openings or are they intentional vents? 3. Commitments this weekend and labor day will slow any progress on my end. 4. My next focus will be to design a cradle to lift the boat off the trailer and remove the centerboard and allow access for shoal keel repair. A. I am leaning toward removing the steel plugs and replacing with lead. (1) I assumed with my hull number that I was in the lead ballast build. a. However, it isn't often you see lead rust. 😊 5. I am assuming my sump is water tight, see P8230007. A. You usually do not get that nasty growth if there is a reasonable exit water path or the shoal keel is water tight and was completely filled with water. Tim de Lacy -----Original Message----- From: tdelacy(a)wavecable.com <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 4:21 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie Thank you for all your comments. I'll execute the drill option, recommended by Mr. Eeg. I'll provide feedback. When I decide on the repair, I'll try to document all my steps. Would be nice to add a recipe for recovery to the collection of M15 and 17 repairs. Tim de Lacy -----Original Message----- From: <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley(a)comcast.net < <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley(a)comcast.net> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:13 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' < <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie I tend to agree with Bob that your crack was not caused by the falling tree. In addition to freezing water, the other thing that could cause that crack is rusting steel, which expands as it oxidizes. You will need to decide whether just to fair it and fill it or do a deep dive and replace the steel with lead. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Eeg < <mailto:montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> montgomeryboats(a)hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 11:03 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie Tim Drill a 1/4 inch hole on the very bottom of your keel and see if any water comes out. I can see RUST inside that crack which indicates water. Water freezes and expands and cracks the keel. This happened on Miss T a 17 owned by John Edwards and that crack is the same. John actually bought Tom Buzzi’s 17 recently as a replacement. I don’t see how a tree would crack your hull from the inside out like that. I hope I’am wrong Bob [cid:5B798252-10FD-498F-9FC5-2EC532883BAC] Sent from my iPad On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:49 AM, <mailto:tdelacy@wavecable.com> tdelacy(a)wavecable.com wrote: Dave, Last November, I had a tree crash through my fence and boat shed. My M17 saved the ground from being damaged. After removing the debris it appeared the only damage was to the starboard mooring cleat. Unfortunately, today as I began my list of items to restore my M17, I found the exterior starboard centerboard shoal keel was cracked from the tree fall damage. The previous owners had taken good care of the boat and the shoal keel was not cracked. I suspect the force of the tree impacting the starboard stern mooring cleat raised the boat bow up and gravity slammed it back down upon the trailer. Do you have any references of how I should proceed? I did quite a bit of epoxy repair to my former harpoon 5.2. I am looking forward to venturing into polyester fiberglass with gel coat finish. I could not attain a painted finish as good as the gel coat. However, as this is the underside, I am leaning toward rebuilding the surface with epoxy? Additionally, re: the stop pin. As I do not intent to race but cruise, do you recommend faring in the stop pin or leaving a proud external stop pin (reference friends early 70's M17). As I am in the Puget Sound region, I expect I will have to pull and recoat the centerboard every 5 years. It just seems an accessible stop pin would be beneficial. Tim de Lacy -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <tree crash.jpg> <boat impact.jpg> <P8220027.JPG> <P8220028.JPG> <P8220030.JPG> <P8220034.JPG> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

5 11

Ballast replacement
by Jon Barber 22 Nov '21

22 Nov '21

My M17, Ol'44, hull # 44 had the dreaded iron shot originally. Sean and Bob E did a fine job replacing not only the ballast but the entire keel. Photos are available somewhere. I will try to add them to my MSOG photosite page. The new ballast is lead. Problem solved. The other advantage to using lead ballast is choice of placement. Since lead by weight takes up less volume, you can decide where to put it. Sean said he moved the new ballast forward to compensate for crew weight in the cockpit. Does this give me an advantage against other 17's? Possibly. This is a fast boat. The floor was cut out inside the cabin to fill the void with lead. I call it a scar. It is slippery, so I covered it with a non skid vinyl "floor". The work was definitely first cabin. Another fine vintage boat saved from the wreckers! On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 9:42 AM <montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or > body 'help' to > montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > montgomery_boats-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill > results > (John Schinnerer) > 2. Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill > results > (John Schinnerer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:38:53 -0800 > From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked > shoal keel drill results > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Message-ID: <6c5b13d9-866e-738d-720d-d066e1d99cc6(a)eco-living.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Here's the available pages on the wayback machine. > You'll have to click each one listed on the page below to see if the > repairs are in there or not. The home page is there and has a link to > repairs stuff but that link is not archived. Could be in there though: > > https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/* > > cheers, > John > > On 11/22/21 9:30 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote: > > There's a chance you could find the pages in the web wayback machine > > (internet archive): > > > > https://archive.org/web/ > > > > If you do, save them to your local device for easy reference... > > > > cheers, > > John > > > > On 11/22/21 8:11 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: > >> TJ: > >> > >> A couple folks have replaced the ballast of the older steel-punchings > >> boats. > >> > >> Many years ago very good site by Sean Mulligan outlined replacing the > >> ballast of his M23. The steps are extremely similar for doing the > >> project > >> on a M17 or M15. That site is no longer. > >> > >> > >> :: Dave Scobie > >> :: M6'8" #650 > >> :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU > >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new > >> site! > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 7:59 AM <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> wrote: > >> > >>> John, > >>> > >>> Thank for your feedback. > >>> > >>> I am leaning toward full ballast replacement. > >>> > >>> I thought I even saw pictures from an individual that executed the > steel > >>> to lead ballast replacement, but I was unable to find the site. > >>> > >>> Fortunately there is a lot of information and I may not have been > >>> diligent. > >>> > >>> TJ de Lacy > >>> M-17-981 WaterBound presently DirtBound > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < > >>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2021 8:27 PM > >>> To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > >>> Cc: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > >>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked > >>> shoal > >>> keel drill results > >>> > >>> I would say, re water in the keel and additional rusting and effects of > >>> that over time, anything could happen, including nothing that causes > >>> problems, to total lockup of CB and/or bursting of keel. > >>> > >>> My M17 keel has had water in it at some point(s) probably long before I > >>> owned it. > >>> There was some damage around the CB stop pin (busted out downwards on > >>> one > >>> side at some point in past) which had been poorly repaired > functionally, > >>> but cosmetically made to look solid. > >>> I didn't notice it until maybe my second season, after having it in the > >>> water for a month, then back on trailer in driveway. A slightly rusty > >>> drip > >>> mark on driveway clued me in. > >>> I explored and repaired and the keel is AFAIK watertight since then. > >>> But... > >>> > >>> How long it had been like that before I bought it I don't know, nor how > >>> many times water had gone in and then dripped out, nor whether only > >>> fresh > >>> or also salt water had gotten in at some past time. > >>> > >>> In any case, the CB worked fine, and still does, and there is no sign > of > >>> swelling on the exterior either, a little over five years later. > >>> > >>> The boat was sitting on the hard for at least several years prior to my > >>> buying it, so add that time to how long it's had wet inside the keel. > >>> > >>> Maybe my pour is not so tight, or full, or is distributed so that > >>> there is > >>> space for expansion internally, all just by chance of the pour volume > >>> and > >>> distribution and whatnot. Or maybe there is just not much rusting > >>> happening. > >>> > >>> I did notice that the steel punchings in my keel still felt and > >>> smelled of > >>> machine oil, so probably had a film of it on them when put in, which > >>> would > >>> be a water repellent/rust inhibitor to some degree. And the few that > >>> came > >>> out when I did some exploratory drilling were not on average very > >>> rusty or > >>> rusty at all. > >>> > >>> On the other hand there's some folks here who've had all the worst > >>> problems from water getting into the steel ballast. > >>> > >>> Including some complete replacements of steel with lead - some of those > >>> are on the MSOG photo site, aren't they? > >>> > >>> Boats that have been leaking into steel ballast keels without > >>> problems we > >>> mostly don't know about...we only know about the problem ones. > >>> > >>> cheers, > >>> John > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 11/21/21 8:02 PM, tdelacy(a)wavecable.com wrote: > >>>> For and about Montgomery Sailboats, > >>>> > >>>> Update: > >>>> > >>>> The boat is off the trailer, the center board is removed as well as > >>> approximately 9 lbs of steel ballast from the starboard shoal keel just > >>> forward of the center board pivot pin. > >>>> > >>>> Question: > >>>> > >>>> If I am successful in sealing the shoal keel water leaks, what do you > >>> think the probability that steel ballast will continue to rust and > >>> expand > >>> resulting in future cracks? > >>>> > >>>> Background: > >>>> > >>>> 1. The shoal keel that I have opened is dry. > >>>> 2. The ballast is very cohesive. Some of the punchings have > >>>> actually > >>> fused into solid lumps. > >>>> 3. Port side is not cracked. > >>>> 3. I am concerned with the amount of shoal keel skin that I would > >>> need to remove for ballast access it will be difficult to retain the > >>> shoal > >>> keel shape. > >>>> 4. For my current situation, it is actually easier to obtain lead > >>> shot to replace the steel ballast. Because lead density is 1.44 times > >>> greater than steel, I believe I will have a noticeable lower CG on the > >>> starboard side if I only replace ballast on the starboard side. > >>>> > >>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>> Waterbound > >>>> Hull # MMP 173320981 > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: tdelacy(a)wavecable.com <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> > >>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 8:13 PM > >>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' > >>>> <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> Subject: M_Boats: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results > >>>> > >>>> Bob, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 1. Re: Drilled hole - no water. > >>>> > >>>> A. However, water intrusion is not > >>> unreasonable, if there was a path into the shoal keel. > >>>> > >>>> B. From the time the tree fell until I > was > >>> able to relocate the trailer into a replacement metal tube and fabric > >>> structure was several months during our raining season. > >>>> > >>>> (1) I did have to pump > water > >>> out of the sump. > >>>> > >>>> (2) I did have an amazing > >>> amount of water trapped in my tarp covering the boat and in the > cockpit. > >>>> > >>>> (3) My fabric structure is > >>> dark green and is several degrees warmer than the outside temperature. > >>>> > >>>> a. Combine the > >>> elevated interior temperature with our unusually hot summer and it is > >>> not > >>> unreasonable to assume the shoal keel has dried out. > >>>> > >>>> 2. Re: picture P8230005. > >>>> > >>>> A. This is just aft of the centerboard > >>>> trunk > >>> in hull, starboard side, similar port side. > >>>> > >>>> B. Is this a possible water path into the > >>> shoal keel? > >>>> > >>>> (1) Water could easily > enter > >>> this opening after the sump filled. > >>>> > >>>> (1) Should I seal these > >>> openings or are they intentional vents? > >>>> > >>>> 3. Commitments this weekend and labor day will slow any > >>> progress on my end. > >>>> > >>>> 4. My next focus will be to design a cradle to lift the > boat > >>> off the trailer and remove the centerboard and allow access for shoal > >>> keel > >>> repair. > >>>> > >>>> A. I am leaning toward removing the steel > >>> plugs and replacing with lead. > >>>> > >>>> (1) I assumed with my hull > >>> number that I was in the lead ballast build. > >>>> > >>>> a. However, it > isn't > >>>> often you see lead rust. 😊 > >>>> > >>>> 5. I am assuming my sump is water tight, see P8230007. > >>>> > >>>> A. You usually do not get that nasty > >>>> growth > >>> if there is a reasonable exit water path or the shoal keel is water > >>> tight > >>> and was completely filled with water. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: tdelacy(a)wavecable.com <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> > >>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 4:21 PM > >>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' > >>>> <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair > >>>> attn: Dave Scobie > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for all your comments. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I'll execute the drill option, recommended by Mr. Eeg. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I'll provide feedback. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> When I decide on the repair, I'll try to document all my steps. Would > >>> be nice to add a recipe for recovery to the collection of M15 and 17 > >>> repairs. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >>>> From: <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley(a)comcast.net < > >>>> <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley(a)comcast.net> > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:13 AM > >>>> > >>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' < > >>>> <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> > >>>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair > >>>> attn: Dave Scobie > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I tend to agree with Bob that your crack was not caused by the falling > >>> tree. In addition to freezing water, the other thing that could cause > >>> that > >>> crack is rusting steel, which expands as it oxidizes. You will need to > >>> decide whether just to fair it and fill it or do a deep dive and > replace > >>> the steel with lead. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >>>> From: Bob Eeg < <mailto:montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> > >>>> montgomeryboats(a)hotmail.com> > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 11:03 AM > >>>> > >>>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > >>>> <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> > >>>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair > >>>> attn: Dave Scobie > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Tim > >>>> > >>>> Drill a 1/4 inch hole on the very bottom of your keel and see if any > >>> water comes out. > >>>> > >>>> I can see RUST inside that crack which indicates water. Water freezes > >>> and expands and cracks the keel. This happened on Miss T a 17 owned > >>> by John > >>> Edwards and that crack is the same. John actually bought Tom Buzzi’s 17 > >>> recently as a replacement. > >>>> > >>>> I don’t see how a tree would crack your hull from the inside out like > >>> that. > >>>> > >>>> I hope I’am wrong > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [cid:5B798252-10FD-498F-9FC5-2EC532883BAC] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:49 AM, <mailto:tdelacy@wavecable.com> > >>> tdelacy(a)wavecable.com wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dave, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Last November, I had a tree crash through my fence and boat shed. My > >>> M17 saved the ground from being damaged. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> After removing the debris it appeared the only damage was to the > >>> starboard mooring cleat. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Unfortunately, today as I began my list of items to restore my M17, I > >>> found the exterior starboard centerboard shoal keel was cracked from > the > >>> tree fall damage. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The previous owners had taken good care of the boat and the shoal keel > >>> was not cracked. I suspect the force of the tree impacting the > >>> starboard > >>> stern mooring cleat raised the boat bow up and gravity slammed it > >>> back down > >>> upon the trailer. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Do you have any references of how I should proceed? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I did quite a bit of epoxy repair to my former harpoon 5.2. I am > >>> looking forward to venturing into polyester fiberglass with gel coat > >>> finish. I could not attain a painted finish as good as the gel coat. > >>> However, as this is the underside, I am leaning toward rebuilding the > >>> surface with epoxy? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Additionally, re: the stop pin. As I do not intent to race but > >>>> cruise, > >>> do you recommend faring in the stop pin or leaving a proud external > stop > >>> pin (reference friends early 70's M17). As I am in the Puget Sound > >>> region, > >>> I expect I will have to pull and recoat the centerboard every 5 > >>> years. It > >>> just seems an accessible stop pin would be beneficial. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > >>>> > >>>> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >>>> > >>>> <tree crash.jpg> > >>>> > >>>> <boat impact.jpg> > >>>> > >>>> <P8220027.JPG> > >>>> > >>>> <P8220028.JPG> > >>>> > >>>> <P8220030.JPG> > >>>> > >>>> <P8220034.JPG> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > >>> -------------------------------------------- > >>> - Eco-Living - > >>> Whole Systems Design Services > >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration > >>> john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > >>> http://eco-living.net > >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >>> > > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:41:25 -0800 > From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked > shoal keel drill results > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Message-ID: <99cc29db-314c-1ca6-653a-ab537a244c9a(a)eco-living.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Here is the archived home page, this was the site: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20120304061007/http://www.havasumontgomerys.pic… > > Unfortunately the link for repairs/restorations does not appear to have > any archived pages... :-( > > cheers, > John > > On 11/22/21 9:38 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote: > > Here's the available pages on the wayback machine. > > You'll have to click each one listed on the page below to see if the > > repairs are in there or not. The home page is there and has a link to > > repairs stuff but that link is not archived. Could be in there though: > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/* > > > > cheers, > > John > > > > On 11/22/21 9:30 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote: > >> There's a chance you could find the pages in the web wayback machine > >> (internet archive): > >> > >> https://archive.org/web/ > >> > >> If you do, save them to your local device for easy reference... > >> > >> cheers, > >> John > >> > >> On 11/22/21 8:11 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: > >>> TJ: > >>> > >>> A couple folks have replaced the ballast of the older steel-punchings > >>> boats. > >>> > >>> Many years ago very good site by Sean Mulligan outlined replacing the > >>> ballast of his M23. The steps are extremely similar for doing the > >>> project > >>> on a M17 or M15. That site is no longer. > >>> > >>> > >>> :: Dave Scobie > >>> :: M6'8" #650 > >>> :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU > >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >>> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >>> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new > >>> site! > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 7:59 AM <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> John, > >>>> > >>>> Thank for your feedback. > >>>> > >>>> I am leaning toward full ballast replacement. > >>>> > >>>> I thought I even saw pictures from an individual that executed the > >>>> steel > >>>> to lead ballast replacement, but I was unable to find the site. > >>>> > >>>> Fortunately there is a lot of information and I may not have been > >>>> diligent. > >>>> > >>>> TJ de Lacy > >>>> M-17-981 WaterBound presently DirtBound > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < > >>>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2021 8:27 PM > >>>> To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > >>>> Cc: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > >>>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked > >>>> shoal > >>>> keel drill results > >>>> > >>>> I would say, re water in the keel and additional rusting and effects > of > >>>> that over time, anything could happen, including nothing that causes > >>>> problems, to total lockup of CB and/or bursting of keel. > >>>> > >>>> My M17 keel has had water in it at some point(s) probably long before > I > >>>> owned it. > >>>> There was some damage around the CB stop pin (busted out downwards > >>>> on one > >>>> side at some point in past) which had been poorly repaired > >>>> functionally, > >>>> but cosmetically made to look solid. > >>>> I didn't notice it until maybe my second season, after having it in > the > >>>> water for a month, then back on trailer in driveway. A slightly > >>>> rusty drip > >>>> mark on driveway clued me in. > >>>> I explored and repaired and the keel is AFAIK watertight since then. > >>>> But... > >>>> > >>>> How long it had been like that before I bought it I don't know, nor > how > >>>> many times water had gone in and then dripped out, nor whether only > >>>> fresh > >>>> or also salt water had gotten in at some past time. > >>>> > >>>> In any case, the CB worked fine, and still does, and there is no > >>>> sign of > >>>> swelling on the exterior either, a little over five years later. > >>>> > >>>> The boat was sitting on the hard for at least several years prior to > my > >>>> buying it, so add that time to how long it's had wet inside the keel. > >>>> > >>>> Maybe my pour is not so tight, or full, or is distributed so that > >>>> there is > >>>> space for expansion internally, all just by chance of the pour > >>>> volume and > >>>> distribution and whatnot. Or maybe there is just not much rusting > >>>> happening. > >>>> > >>>> I did notice that the steel punchings in my keel still felt and > >>>> smelled of > >>>> machine oil, so probably had a film of it on them when put in, which > >>>> would > >>>> be a water repellent/rust inhibitor to some degree. And the few that > >>>> came > >>>> out when I did some exploratory drilling were not on average very > >>>> rusty or > >>>> rusty at all. > >>>> > >>>> On the other hand there's some folks here who've had all the worst > >>>> problems from water getting into the steel ballast. > >>>> > >>>> Including some complete replacements of steel with lead - some of > those > >>>> are on the MSOG photo site, aren't they? > >>>> > >>>> Boats that have been leaking into steel ballast keels without > >>>> problems we > >>>> mostly don't know about...we only know about the problem ones. > >>>> > >>>> cheers, > >>>> John > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 11/21/21 8:02 PM, tdelacy(a)wavecable.com wrote: > >>>>> For and about Montgomery Sailboats, > >>>>> > >>>>> Update: > >>>>> > >>>>> The boat is off the trailer, the center board is removed as well as > >>>> approximately 9 lbs of steel ballast from the starboard shoal keel > just > >>>> forward of the center board pivot pin. > >>>>> > >>>>> Question: > >>>>> > >>>>> If I am successful in sealing the shoal keel water leaks, what do you > >>>> think the probability that steel ballast will continue to rust and > >>>> expand > >>>> resulting in future cracks? > >>>>> > >>>>> Background: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. The shoal keel that I have opened is dry. > >>>>> 2. The ballast is very cohesive. Some of the punchings have > >>>>> actually > >>>> fused into solid lumps. > >>>>> 3. Port side is not cracked. > >>>>> 3. I am concerned with the amount of shoal keel skin that I would > >>>> need to remove for ballast access it will be difficult to retain the > >>>> shoal > >>>> keel shape. > >>>>> 4. For my current situation, it is actually easier to obtain lead > >>>> shot to replace the steel ballast. Because lead density is 1.44 times > >>>> greater than steel, I believe I will have a noticeable lower CG on the > >>>> starboard side if I only replace ballast on the starboard side. > >>>>> > >>>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>>> Waterbound > >>>>> Hull # MMP 173320981 > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: tdelacy(a)wavecable.com <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 8:13 PM > >>>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' > >>>>> <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>>> Subject: M_Boats: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. Re: Drilled hole - no water. > >>>>> > >>>>> A. However, water intrusion is not > >>>> unreasonable, if there was a path into the shoal keel. > >>>>> > >>>>> B. From the time the tree fell until I > >>>>> was > >>>> able to relocate the trailer into a replacement metal tube and fabric > >>>> structure was several months during our raining season. > >>>>> > >>>>> (1) I did have to pump > >>>>> water > >>>> out of the sump. > >>>>> > >>>>> (2) I did have an amazing > >>>> amount of water trapped in my tarp covering the boat and in the > >>>> cockpit. > >>>>> > >>>>> (3) My fabric structure is > >>>> dark green and is several degrees warmer than the outside temperature. > >>>>> > >>>>> a. Combine the > >>>> elevated interior temperature with our unusually hot summer and it > >>>> is not > >>>> unreasonable to assume the shoal keel has dried out. > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. Re: picture P8230005. > >>>>> > >>>>> A. This is just aft of the centerboard > >>>>> trunk > >>>> in hull, starboard side, similar port side. > >>>>> > >>>>> B. Is this a possible water path into > the > >>>> shoal keel? > >>>>> > >>>>> (1) Water could easily > >>>>> enter > >>>> this opening after the sump filled. > >>>>> > >>>>> (1) Should I seal these > >>>> openings or are they intentional vents? > >>>>> > >>>>> 3. Commitments this weekend and labor day will slow any > >>>> progress on my end. > >>>>> > >>>>> 4. My next focus will be to design a cradle to lift the > >>>>> boat > >>>> off the trailer and remove the centerboard and allow access for > >>>> shoal keel > >>>> repair. > >>>>> > >>>>> A. I am leaning toward removing the > steel > >>>> plugs and replacing with lead. > >>>>> > >>>>> (1) I assumed with my hull > >>>> number that I was in the lead ballast build. > >>>>> > >>>>> a. However, it > >>>>> isn't > >>>>> often you see lead rust. 😊 > >>>>> > >>>>> 5. I am assuming my sump is water tight, see P8230007. > >>>>> > >>>>> A. You usually do not get that nasty > >>>>> growth > >>>> if there is a reasonable exit water path or the shoal keel is water > >>>> tight > >>>> and was completely filled with water. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: tdelacy(a)wavecable.com <tdelacy(a)wavecable.com> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 4:21 PM > >>>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' > >>>>> <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair > >>>>> attn: Dave Scobie > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you for all your comments. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll execute the drill option, recommended by Mr. Eeg. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll provide feedback. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> When I decide on the repair, I'll try to document all my steps. > Would > >>>> be nice to add a recipe for recovery to the collection of M15 and 17 > >>>> repairs. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> > >>>>> From: <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley(a)comcast.net < > >>>>> <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley(a)comcast.net> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:13 AM > >>>>> > >>>>> To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' < > >>>>> <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > >>>>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair > >>>>> attn: Dave Scobie > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I tend to agree with Bob that your crack was not caused by the > falling > >>>> tree. In addition to freezing water, the other thing that could > >>>> cause that > >>>> crack is rusting steel, which expands as it oxidizes. You will need to > >>>> decide whether just to fair it and fill it or do a deep dive and > >>>> replace > >>>> the steel with lead. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Bob Eeg < <mailto:montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> > >>>>> montgomeryboats(a)hotmail.com> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 11:03 AM > >>>>> > >>>>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > >>>>> <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > >>>>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair > >>>>> attn: Dave Scobie > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Tim > >>>>> > >>>>> Drill a 1/4 inch hole on the very bottom of your keel and see if any > >>>> water comes out. > >>>>> > >>>>> I can see RUST inside that crack which indicates water. Water freezes > >>>> and expands and cracks the keel. This happened on Miss T a 17 owned > >>>> by John > >>>> Edwards and that crack is the same. John actually bought Tom Buzzi’s > 17 > >>>> recently as a replacement. > >>>>> > >>>>> I don’t see how a tree would crack your hull from the inside out like > >>>> that. > >>>>> > >>>>> I hope I’am wrong > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> [cid:5B798252-10FD-498F-9FC5-2EC532883BAC] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:49 AM, <mailto:tdelacy@wavecable.com> > >>>> tdelacy(a)wavecable.com wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Dave, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Last November, I had a tree crash through my fence and boat shed. My > >>>> M17 saved the ground from being damaged. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> After removing the debris it appeared the only damage was to the > >>>> starboard mooring cleat. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Unfortunately, today as I began my list of items to restore my M17, I > >>>> found the exterior starboard centerboard shoal keel was cracked from > >>>> the > >>>> tree fall damage. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The previous owners had taken good care of the boat and the shoal > keel > >>>> was not cracked. I suspect the force of the tree impacting the > >>>> starboard > >>>> stern mooring cleat raised the boat bow up and gravity slammed it > >>>> back down > >>>> upon the trailer. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Do you have any references of how I should proceed? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I did quite a bit of epoxy repair to my former harpoon 5.2. I am > >>>> looking forward to venturing into polyester fiberglass with gel coat > >>>> finish. I could not attain a painted finish as good as the gel coat. > >>>> However, as this is the underside, I am leaning toward rebuilding the > >>>> surface with epoxy? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Additionally, re: the stop pin. As I do not intent to race but > >>>>> cruise, > >>>> do you recommend faring in the stop pin or leaving a proud external > >>>> stop > >>>> pin (reference friends early 70's M17). As I am in the Puget Sound > >>>> region, > >>>> I expect I will have to pull and recoat the centerboard every 5 > >>>> years. It > >>>> just seems an accessible stop pin would be beneficial. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Tim de Lacy > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > >>>>> > >>>>> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >>>>> > >>>>> <tree crash.jpg> > >>>>> > >>>>> <boat impact.jpg> > >>>>> > >>>>> <P8220027.JPG> > >>>>> > >>>>> <P8220028.JPG> > >>>>> > >>>>> <P8220030.JPG> > >>>>> > >>>>> <P8220034.JPG> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > >>>> -------------------------------------------- > >>>> - Eco-Living - > >>>> Whole Systems Design Services > >>>> People - Place - Learning - Integration > >>>> john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > >>>> http://eco-living.net > >>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >>>> > >> > > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > To unsubscribe send an email to > montgomery_boats-leave(a)mailman.xmission.com > %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > ------------------------------ > > End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 225, Issue 26 > ************************************************* >

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Stern light M15
by Jim Sadler 20 Nov '21

20 Nov '21

Any suggestions on where to mount stern light? Pelican has a tube stern rail and I am tempted to mount to that rail but want to stay as Bristol as possible Thanks Skippers Capt Jim SV Pelican Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

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Re rig
by Jon Barber 18 Nov '21

18 Nov '21

Has anyone rerigged their 17 with dyneema? I am considering rerigging my boat and would be interested in any tutorials or ideas. Thanks, Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44

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New Montgomery 15 Rudder Blade and Questions
by David Grah 18 Nov '21

18 Nov '21

I just received the new rudder blade I purchased for my Montomgery 15 from Bobby Chilek at Bobby's Boat Works and it is really great. Our old blade I think was original with the boat built in 1986. It had split top and bottom and had a run-in with a propeller at some point along with a number of other bruises. Recently I had filled all the various divots in it but have never been satisfied with the result. The new blade is nicely shaped and finished, is a little wider than the old blade, and its pivot hole is in a slightly different spot. All in all, if you're thinking about a new rudder blade, I'd recommend Bobby's. Fitting the new blade in the rest of rudder assembly got me to thinking about the condition of the aluminum rudder cheeks (I guess that is what they are called) and what I can do to rehabilitate them. The issue with them is primarily wear in some of the holes in the aluminum, most significantly the pivot hole for the rudder blade. The pivot hole in the aluminum cheeks had significant wear and, a few years ago, I bushed them with some sort of metallic bushing, probably a brass or bronze (the wood of the rudder blade had some play too that I improved with epoxy and re-drilling the hole). Those bushings have worked well reducing the play in the rudder assembly but, over the years, the dissimilar metals of the cheeks and the bushings have developed signs of corrosion. In addition to issues with the pivot hole, upon close inspection, I see the front mounting holes of the bottom pintle are also showing signs of wear. At this point I am wondering if a good treatment for these worn holes in the aluminum cheeks is to weld them over and re-drill them and wondered if any in this community has insights about this idea. I'm thinking some 1/8 inch doublers welded over the welded-over existing pivot holes, welding over the other worn holes, and then redrilling all these holes might be a good way to put more life into those old cheeks. So, my questions: I don't know much about welding, but does this approach make sense? Is there anything I should know about the particular aluminum used for the existing cheeks, the particular aluminum to use for doublers, or the welding materials or process to make this approach most likely to succeed? I realize the doublers could only be welded on around the edges leaving water a place to get between the cheeks and doublers if it got in through some sort of welding flaw. Should I be concerned about this possibility? If so, would it work to develop the additional thickness by welding new material onto the cheeks with no doublers? I assume a local welding shop could handle the welding part. Does that make sense? As always, thanks for any and all feedback, information, and ideas. David GrahBishop Calfornia

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Definition of Bristol
by Jim Sadler 16 Nov '21

16 Nov '21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6mWJqkiTE4 Capt Jim -----Original Message----- From: Jim Sadler <jimsadler(a)jascopacific.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 9:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: New Montgomery 15 Rudder Blade and Questions Skipper David I would just make some new rudder cheeks. Saw the shape on a band saw and transfer punch and drill new holes. Or go Bristol with stainless steel Capt Jim SV Pelican -----Original Message----- From: David Grah via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2021 1:12 PM To: For and About Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Cc: David Grah <d_b_grah(a)yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: New Montgomery 15 Rudder Blade and Questions I just received the new rudder blade I purchased for my Montomgery 15 from Bobby Chilek at Bobby's Boat Works and it is really great. Our old blade I think was original with the boat built in 1986. It had split top and bottom and had a run-in with a propeller at some point along with a number of other bruises. Recently I had filled all the various divots in it but have never been satisfied with the result. The new blade is nicely shaped and finished, is a little wider than the old blade, and its pivot hole is in a slightly different spot. All in all, if you're thinking about a new rudder blade, I'd recommend Bobby's. Fitting the new blade in the rest of rudder assembly got me to thinking about the condition of the aluminum rudder cheeks (I guess that is what they are called) and what I can do to rehabilitate them. The issue with them is primarily wear in some of the holes in the aluminum, most significantly the pivot hole for the rudder blade. The pivot hole in the aluminum cheeks had significant wear and, a few years ago, I bushed them with some sort of metallic bushing, probably a brass or bronze (the wood of the rudder blade had some play too that I improved with epoxy and re-drilling the hole). Those bushings have worked well reducing the play in the rudder assembly but, over the years, the dissimilar metals of the cheeks and the bushings have developed signs of corrosion. In addition to issues with the pivot hole, upon close inspection, I see the front mounting holes of the bottom pintle are also showing signs of wear. At this point I am wondering if a good treatment for these worn holes in the aluminum cheeks is to weld them over and re-drill them and wondered if any in this community has insights about this idea. I'm thinking some 1/8 inch doublers welded over the welded-over existing pivot holes, welding over the other worn holes, and then redrilling all these holes might be a good way to put more life into those old cheeks. So, my questions: I don't know much about welding, but does this approach make sense? Is there anything I should know about the particular aluminum used for the existing cheeks, the particular aluminum to use for doublers, or the welding materials or process to make this approach most likely to succeed? I realize the doublers could only be welded on around the edges leaving water a place to get between the cheeks and doublers if it got in through some sort of welding flaw. Should I be concerned about this possibility? If so, would it work to develop the additional thickness by welding new material onto the cheeks with no doublers? I assume a local welding shop could handle the welding part. Does that make sense? As always, thanks for any and all feedback, information, and ideas. David GrahBishop Calfornia

1 0

Tom Vanatta
by Bill Ahrens 12 Nov '21

12 Nov '21

Tom Vanatta, long time former Montgomery dealer in Tucson AZ passed away on Monday. I called Jerry and left a message. Stan, ask Jerry if he got it. Thanks Bill Ahrens W. A. Ahrens & Associates.

3 2

Re: Anchoring m 15
by kicker_fixer 11 Nov '21

11 Nov '21

Hi guys , like to add my two cents to the core discussion. My 1975 M17 # 79 has half round ribs under the fore deck no core . If the deck had been cored with balsa she would have been in the land fill 20+ yrs ago hooray for solid decks and hulls . The only weak point on the boat as built was / is iron ballast Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> Date: 10/24/21 6:33 PM (GMT-06:00) To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Anchoring m 15 BLOG post I linked before has details. There is also a video linked inthat post - the boat used is a Sage 17 but process same as M15/17 and Sage15 & SageCat.:: Dave Scobie:: M6'8" #650:: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU:: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com:: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com:: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:29 PM sheppardtb via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> wrote:> I have a M 15 and would like " blow by blow" on anchoring from> cockpit.Dave Scobie and others might help me out.Sent from my T-Mobile 4G> LTE Device

1 0

Jackery solar
by Jim Sadler 07 Nov '21

07 Nov '21

Any skippers use Jackery for power Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

1 0

Outboard generator
by Jim Sadler 06 Nov '21

06 Nov '21

Looking for small OB that will power my tiller pilot Capt Jim M15 Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

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