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Re: M_Boats: M-23
by bownez＠juno.com 11 Apr '13

11 Apr '13

Hi Sean, You are no more crazy than average. Dick Lane would tow his old (now my) M23 to the San Juans with the motor on the transom and never had an issue. However, his motor was smaller than yours ( around 75 lbs). I get too nervous, and remove it when towing. The M23 mast IS heavy and beefy. Almost every M23 gooseneck I have seen is bent and distorted from the raising process. Theo's was a real twisted mess. I have had mine rebuilt by a SS metal working buddy, and beefed up from stock. I take it REALLY slowly and carefully for the raising and lowering of the big stick. It's snowing like mad here. Bones, waiting for spring. ____________________________________________________________ Unusual Sleep Trick Scientists in Boston have revealed a natural sleep formula that would have everyone talking. Try it tonight. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5166bc62502c73c624fb3st02vuc

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Re: M_Boats: M-23
by Nebwest2＠aol.com 10 Apr '13

10 Apr '13

Hi Todd, Congratulations on acquiring CeeCee! Sorry I did not respond a little sooner...things have been a little haywire for 'Jo and me lately. I have a Harry Pattison main on my boat and could not be happier with it. They are not cheap sails but I like that fact that all Elliot Pattison's stuff is made right here in the US in their own loft...not overseas. Makes a big difference if you need service. Harry is gentleman through and through and knows his craft like no other. He will work with you to personally design all the aspects you want in your sails, into them and help you make the decisions. I am not a furler guy....but many are. It's just personaI preference and convenience vs performance. I removed the furler that was on Dauntless when I got her and never looked back...well, that's not exactly true. When it's windy and I am running a blade, working jib, or storm jib ...I do look back, occasionally, to see how the guys with the furlers are doing. ;-) However...when the wind slackens....they are looking back at me as I hank on another genoa or jib, while they just unfurled more canvass. ;-) With respect to trailers....I have a Pacific that I purchased new probably 8 years ago. It is galvanized and has not a spot of rust on it other than a slight surface rust on the springs. I go to the salt multiple times every year and it is dunked ( always washed afterwards). I would definintely purchase it again with a few minor changes that would be easy to make. If you get to that point let me know and I will tell you the specifics. You've got yourself a great boat. Often on these older boats the list of things to do is long and almost overwhelming. Rest assured that with this boat it'll be worth the effort. I can speak from experience having sailed the 23 in all sorts of conditions....she's not a perfect boat....but damn close. I don't believe that the perfect boat probably exists. When Lyle Hess drew boats I have heard it said that his first concern was to get you out and home safely. My experience with the M23 is that we are comfortable when others are heading for the barn....and when we finally do throw in the towel, it's usually because of the crew, not the boat. Again, congrats! and if there is anything I can assist with please don't hesitate to ask. I know the other M23 owners on here as well are also all very knowledgeable about the design and willing to help. They helped me immensely get through our rebuild. Sean M23 Dauntless

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Re: M_Boats: advice on hull to deck joint repair
by bownez＠juno.com 08 Apr '13

08 Apr '13

Hello Mark and Robbin, I have a slight leak as well on my M23, port side, at the lowermost point in the sheer. The only thing I have done up to this point is enlarge the toe rail holes so water does not pool there. Perhaps I will re-bed a number of the toe rail screws before I splash the boat, it can't hurt. Robbin, I'll be curious to know your findings after you remove the entire rail. I would prefer to not remove mine. Mark, did you have toe rails leaks as well? Did re-bedding the screws solve the issue? Thanks guys.... Bones ____________________________________________________________ Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5162beb4580a63eb45e43st01vuc

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Re: M_Boats: advice on hull to deck joint repair
by edarts93＠earthlink.net 08 Apr '13

08 Apr '13

Robbin, The hull to deck joint on the M23 is different from the M17. The deck turns down and the hull comes up inside the lip of the deck. The machine screws go from the outside of the toe rail, through the deck and hull and into the cabin. When you first brought up this project I commented that you probably only needed to find the leaking machine screws, remove and reseal them and your leak(s) will be stopped. I still believe that to be the case. I don't see any way the M23 joint could leak except where the machine screws penetrate the hull (water has to go up between the deck lip and over the hull to get inside). I took the port toerail completely off of my M23 cleaned it up, rebedded and re-installed. I won't do it that way again. If it ever starts to leak again I'll just look to see which screw is the leaker and reseal it. I think removing the toerail is completely unnecessary, but then my thoughts are only worth a penney! If you decide to proceed with the removal, I would either take the entire toerail off or do 1/2 at a time starting from the stern. I contemplated the 1/2 at a time procedure and decided against it when I did mine. The joint won't come apart on you (at least mine didn't) it is thoroughly bonded together. That's my 2 cents and worth every bit of it! Your results may vary. :) Good luck with your project. Mark Dvorscak M23 Faith M15 (awaiting paint job and new name) and former M17 owner

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(no subject)
by Todd Bradley 08 Apr '13

08 Apr '13

Hello everybody, My name is Todd Bradley and I live in the Sacramento CA area near Folsom Lake. I have been mostly just a observer of e-mails, questions and good banter for about six months now. I have really been inspired by all the helpful and friendly advice I see being exchanged and I am looking forward to being more involved. I am now a proud owner of a 1980 23' (hull # 86, currently known as Ce Cee). She is currently in Sausalito and I plan to keep her there for a while (no trailer). She needs lots of upgrades and TLC. I have been studying Sean's documented journey and I am both excited and nervous. The information archived by Sean and others will be a great help. If I can be half as diligent and dedicated to restoring my craft as Sean, then I will certainly be successful. The immediate needs for the boat are - new standing and running rigging, new outboard and new main sail, new battery (check wiring & lighting) Eventually - new galvanized trailer from Pacific (no trailer with boat), trunk & centerboard (repairs undetermined at this time), stains inside upper cabin ceiling - appears to be leaking at cabin top teak side-rails (remove & re-bed?), clean & oil interior teak & ash. Thank you to all the people that provide your support, knowledge, sharing, document preservation and advice. The journey will be better and more rewarding for it. Thank you, Todd Bradley

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Cockpit drain doesn't drain
by Dan Richman 07 Apr '13

07 Apr '13

Hi, all -- Haven't contributed to this group in a long time, and I don't see a way to search past conversations, so please forgive me if this has been asked and answered. My Montgomery 17, sail 302 (so an early one, i think -- made in 1979) does not drain its cockpit when tied up in the marina. The cockpit simply continues to fill until I pump it out. This provides just one more thing to worry about. The drain's design does not resemble in the slightest the one provided by Jerry Montgomery here ( http://www.msog.org/models/m17/m17_history.cfm#Cockpit%20Drainage) Rather, there is a single drain hole, about 1" in diameter, in the bottom of the cockpit, connected to a short length of heavy hose that is looped (as an anti-siphon, i'm guessing) and led to another hole below the waterline. Is it possible this drain was designed to somehow siphon water out when the boat is moving through the water but not when it is at rest? If not, it is totally ineffective. If so, it is only partially ineffective. I welcome any thoughts. Many thanks. -- Dan Richman DanielARichman(a)gmail.com 5039 View Road Langley, WA 98260 USA Home office: 360-221-6216 Cell: 360-949-3234

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Re: M_Boats: M23
by bownez＠juno.com 06 Apr '13

06 Apr '13

Hello Todd, Welcome to the club. Pleased to hear you are a proud owner of the rare M23 and that you wish to restore her luster. Having owned my M23 for 12 years now, and have seen and sailed Sean's boat, all your efforts will be warmly rewarded. Feel free to ask questions as you move along with your projects, we are here. Bones in Mn Soon to launch for the season ____________________________________________________________ Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

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sailing a M15 in high winds
by Karen and Smiley 06 Apr '13

06 Apr '13

If I can add my 2 cents to this equation as my background is sailing Beach Cats and we don't know what a stinkin reef is on those boats..the reef solution to us is more BEEF on the trap line J . Anyway when I bought my M15 from Stan it would be polite to say that his sails were pretty blown out since Stan sailed big winds on the Lakes up north. This gave me a chance to have the Wonderful Dr Judy B at Hyde cut me some nice new sails. I HAD THEM CUT FLATTER for 15-20 knots of wind that I expected to encounter on the Chesapeake bay. I'd rather point up with a flat set of new sails that de-power with a stock set or blown out set of sails. Funny that last year my wife and I sailed in 18-20 knots full set up on the M15 and she sat between my legs and I sat up on the coming to get more leverage BUT we both hugged the farthest point forward in the cockpit to get our weights forward and out. I also had upgraded to the IDA rudder which I felt dug deeper and prevented cavitation and it certainly did not have much weather helm. The big chop on my broad reach home was more worrisome than my up wing leg. I called Bob Eeg after this sail cause it was a hoot, the wife liked it too. So if you expect to sail in BIG winds and u need new sails consider designing your sails for those conditions, you can always put more bag in a flatter sail with proper controls..or get a Trapeze set up and have more fun. Hey Sal you hearing this convo and I am thinking how nice a deep center board and single easy reefing sail would be..take this convo over to your forum J for follow up. Smiley and Karen magoo252(a)comcast.net

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Four adults on an M-15
by Lou 03 Apr '13

03 Apr '13

I am always pre-thinking any possibility, so I built in an extra seat on my M-15 before I even thought about four in the cockpit. Using wood and marine aluminum chair posts, I installed a hard plastic stadium folding chair in the companionway. With the hatch slid forward you can seat one (heaviest) person in the companionway while seating the two other people close to the cabin house on port and starboard. This leaves enough room for you to control the tiller and mainsheet, while the passengers work the port and starboard jib sheets. Everyone has a position and the boat remains solidly balanced. You can also run the main sheet to the back of the cockpit using a couple of pulleys and another jam cleat. Unlike some others who post, I usually sail alone and I have only tried out my system once, with four, in a fairly good blow. The boat handled very well with the extra weight and had good stability in the wind and waves. It even works quite well for just two people since the captain can have the cockpit to his or her self and not have to worry about someone else switching sides on each tack. I'm posting this so someone else might benefit from it and feel a little more comfortable with carrying four on board. It was not that expensive or difficult to make and it is removable when you don't wish to have it in the way. My wife refuses to sit in it , she calls it my red neck chair! Monty 15..."Still The One"... Lou Aliotta

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Re: M_Boats: turtled M15?
by W David Scobie 02 Apr '13

02 Apr '13

yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-) when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust. most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave. another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation! i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind. my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell. the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever. :: Dave Scobie --- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > You know, now thinking back I don't > think she went full turtle. I can > recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think > there were 3 > times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the > boat was not > righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling > upwind at quite a clip, > and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or > round out to > prevent the sail from going under. The second time I > was travelling > downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. > The wind shifted > slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I > think), the > boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around > to the bottom > of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough > that another person > could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, > trying to get > water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of > mind, in either case, > to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only > on both of these > occasions, as well. > > I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick > thinking and > action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself > and > underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build! > > I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having > learned important > lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in > a tree... > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I > guess there's a first > > for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know > more. T > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > Chris: > > > > > > when you write turtled do you mean your boat was > completely inverted and > > > stayed that way? > > > > > > or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90 > degrees) in a full > > > knockdown? > > > > > > where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or > still cleated? > > > > > > just curious as your writing is the first i've > read of such a thing > > > happening. > > > > > > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > > > > > --- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've > turtled my M15 a > > > > couple times for various reasons. > Luckily I had a couple > > > > people with me, each time, so I had them hang > on the keel > > > > while I tried to empty the sail of > water. The boat popped up > > > > quickly with a surprisingly small amount of > water in the > > > > cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self > righting'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Chris >

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