December 2005 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Swing keel advice??
by Nebwest2＠aol.com 05 Dec '05

05 Dec '05

Hey everyone. After bringing M-23 No83 (no name yet) back from Florida to her new home in Western, AZ, the serious work has begun. Unfortunately, she is suffering from a fairly (worse than expected) blistering problem. The process of stripping 4-5 coats of Trindad bottom paint and Lord only knows how many coats of epoxy barrier coat has begun. Obviously, some time in her past she must have been plagued with this same blistering problem and I can only guess that she wasn't allowed to dry out long enough prior to the application of the barrier coat. Whatever the reason, the blisters are back. We're stripping her back to original gelcoat, opening blisters and gonna do the whole process all over again with a lengthy dry out time. At least the its AZ where the humidity today was only 9% .UGH! We wanted to sail our new boat not lay underneath her!!! hahaha Anyways, my question. Next week we are gonna have her craned from the trailer onto work stands. My plan is that while the crane has her lifted to drop the swing keel out so that it can be sandblasted, epoxied, painted, new pendant, new pins, etc. How do I drive out the pivot and stop pins? The ends of the pins are already exposed flush with the outside of the keel trunk. Do I just drive them out? I'm thinking that I shouldn't dremel around their circumference since that would enlarge the holes. Big Punch and Big Hammer????? Any advice would be appreciated. I think we are gonna lower it onto a modifed transmission jack or some kind of cart fabrication since the sucker is supposed to weigh in at 360 lbs. We will re-install it after the blister/bottom job is done when we use the crane to put her back on her trailer. Boy are we having FUN now!!!

1 0

Re: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 05 Dec '05

05 Dec '05

In a message dated 11/27/2005 8:08:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, gilbert(a)mindgame.com writes: I would like to hear from you guys that bought the new lighter material rudders from ida sailor Hi Gilbert, Larry Yake with his early M17 was the first to try the Idasailor rudder. There is a picture of the assembly on the Photo Site (link below). Larry helped develop the shape of the rudder which is like the original designed by Lyle Hess. I can say after the two week NW Cruise, Larry was very happy with performance and use. I think he may be the only M-Boater with one... My experience with them is from my past ownership of a Potter. Idasailor is the OEM rudder maker for all of the Potter craft. They may not put the blade to a test like real race craft, but then again with the winds of our SF Bay, they do get to see use. I lurk on the Trailer Sailor Forum on occasion and they (Potters) seem to be quite happy with the product. Good luck on your quest. Bill keeper of the Photo Site _www.msog.funtigo.com_ (http://www.msog.funtigo.com) Rudder Link _http://www.funtigo.com/MSOG?b=197153&c=1789789&p=start&cr=1_ (http://www.funtigo.com/MSOG?b=197153&c=1789789&p=start&cr=1)

4 4

Dana Site
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 04 Dec '05

04 Dec '05

Hi All, I'm just about up and running wireless DSL. (finally!) Anyway, I looked through my past mail and can't find the Dana Kite link. Could someone kindly pass it along. Thanks, Bill

2 1

Re: M_Boats: Montgomery Maine cruise story
by Larry E Yake 04 Dec '05

04 Dec '05

Great pictures and narrative, Doug. Got me inspired to get started planning next years San Juan trip. Some of those pictures, especially the sunrise ones, are calender quality shots. By the way, I was able to view it all on a dial-up connection. Took quite a bit of time, but worth it. Those lobsters are huge! Larry On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:03:21 -0800 (PST) Doug Kelch <doug_kelch(a)yahoo.com> writes: > My new web site with the Maine cruise story is towards > the end of this email. > > My funtigo site seems to plagued with problems and > they don't seem to want address the issue. I have > loaded close to 100 Maine photos on the site but it > will not let you see more than the first 6. My other > topics on Funtigo are also not functional for no known > reason. > > All of the above is the reason it has taken so long to > share any of the details of the Maine cruise. > > I now have a new web site and the only useful thing on > it at the moment is the Maine cruise story. > > I use Cox cable as my ISP - they give one site, 10mb > of free web space per email account and with each > customer they will let you have up to 7 email > accounts. They limit the traffic per web site to > 300Mb per month per Web site. > > In order to make this work reasonably well I have > actually put up 4 websites and distributed the Maine > story over the 4 sites. > Hopefully this will be invisible to you as the primary > website and all of the secondary websites have links > to all 4 parts of the Maine story but "home" may take > you to one of the secondary sites. > > Each site has 20 - 40 pictures on 1 page so this is > definitly not a dial up site - broadband only. > > Anyway come and take a look at a great cruise - the > site is: > > http://members.cox.net/dkelch/ > > You will find the links to the Maine story on the > left. > > I hope you enjoy it. If you have any problems let me > know via > doug_kelch(a)yahoo.com. > > If one of the 4 segments stops working mid month it > may be because I have exceed the 300mb transfer limit. > > Thanks > > Doug Kelch > "Seas the Day" > > > > __________________________________________ > Yahoo! DSL Â Something to write home about. > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > ilman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

1 0

Re: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder
by Larry E Yake 03 Dec '05

03 Dec '05

Wow, Tod, nice bit of research work. I didn't have to go to the 4th website to get the headache. Not being an engineer, and not even playing one on TV, it's mostly over my head, but I follow your examples of forces somewhat. I'm sure I don't understand all the forces at work on a boat rudder, knowing only what I feel and the results I see. As you mentioned, the "feel" can be deceiving. It would be interesting to be able to look down the rudder under various conditions to see if there were some mysterious things happening. Nice thread here. Good discussion. Larry On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:04:17 -0500 <htmills(a)bright.net> writes: > Larry, > > I wasn't thinking about torque from weather helm, but instead a > twisting of > the blade due to the force on the blade from the water not being in > line > with what structural engineers call the "shear center". You might > not even > particularly feel any weather helm, depending on how well balanced > the > rudder blade is. Sometimes you get funny things like that going on. > For > example, if you have a 10' long piece of angle iron sticking out of > a wall, > looking like an "L" and you put a sandbag on the end of it, it > won't just > bend down a bit. It will also bend to one side. Similarly, if you > have a > 10' long piece of channel sticking out of a wall like so: [ and you > push > down on it at the centroid of the cross-sectional area, it will not > only > bend down a bit but it will also twist. To get it to bend straight > down, > you actually have to put a little bracket on the backside of the [ > away from > the horizontal legs (flanges) and push down there (to the left of > the > vertical web as I typed it) or else counter twist as you push down. > > I was curious so I googled the modulus of elasticity of some > plastics like > HDPE and UHMW and Starboard and it looks like they are quite a bit > (about 10 > times) more bendy than the same section built of mahogany. > > http://www.machinist-materials.com/comparison_table_for_plastics.htm > > http://www.righteouswoods.net/mahogany_african.html (probably our > rudders > are Honduras Mahogany, I'd guess, but this gets us in the ball > park) > > However, that still doesn't mean that the rudder couldn't give > quite > satisfactory performance. It could be that in both cases the > deflections > are not especially significant. If I were racing, though, I'd > choose the > wood any day over an unreinforced plastic, unless the course were > through > some skinny water! :o) > > I'm still wondering about the location of the shear center of a > foil, > though. Didn't see anything really juicy. Here is a brief mention > of the > subject: > > http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~drmac/elasticaxis.html > > If you wanna give yourself a headache, look at this one. Sure gives > me one: > > http://www.ae.msstate.edu/~masoud/Teaching/exp/A15.7_8_ex1.html > > The thing is, your typical foil such as an airplane wing isn't made > of a > homogenous (sp?) material the way our rudders are. > > Anyway, not knocking them; for some places they make much better > sense than > the standard non kick-up rudder. > > Tod > M17 #408 > BuscaBrisas > > -----Original Message----- > From: > montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net(a)mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] > On > Behalf Of Larry E Yake > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 8:19 PM > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder > > > Regarding the Ida Sailor kick-up rudder, I would think you would be > experiencing a huge amount of weatherhelm before you had enough > torque to > make the rudder blade twist. The cheek plates are pretty > substantial. I > really doubt we're getting any twist or flex. The tiller doesn't > have any of > the flex feel that I've noticed on the stock M15 kick up rudder. > I've only > been using mine one season so I can't speak to the long term > durability > issue other than to say the quality and strength of construction > look very > good. The pointing ability doesn't seem to be any different than the > stock > rudder, which is a good thing. My stock rudder was one of the > earlier, > balanced models and I was reluctant to replace it, but since it > couldn't > even be raised vertically in shallow water I needed to do something. > The > foil shape is very good on the stock 17 rudder, so I was pleased > that the > kick-up rudder seems equal in performance. I have no vested > interest in Ida > Sailor, and get nothing from them for endorsements. I did get a > discount on > my rudder for helping with the design. I just believe it's a good > product. > The rudder breaking on the Santana is somewhat worrisome. I have > also heard > of a corrosion problem on the aluminum cheekplates on one of the > east coast > boats, which was also blamed on substandard material. There are > about a > dozen Ida Sailor M17 rudders out there last I heard. Anyone else > having any > problems? > > Larry > > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:32:55 -0500 <htmills(a)bright.net> writes: > > While those plastics no doubt offer some advantages, I would > suspect > > that > > rigidity of the overall blade would be less than the factory > rudder, > > meaning > > that when viewed from the top the tip of the rudder would want to > > > bow to > > weather with weather helm and might well twist, putting the tip at > > > a > > different angle of attack than the upper part of the blade if the > > > shear > > center of the foil doesn't coincide with the center of lift, which > > > could > > offset some of the gains of the "good" foil shape. Still, for > some > > people > > it's probably a very good option, certainly better than getting > your > > transom > > bolts popped. > > > > Tod > > M17 #408 > > BuscaBrisas (<= who's transom bolts got stretched significantly > > once) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > > montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net(a)mailman.xmission.com > > > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] > > > On > > Behalf Of Tom Smith > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:34 PM > > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > > Subject: RE: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder > > > > > > > > Larry has an Idasailor rudder, Randy Graves has one, and I have > one > > that's > > not yet installed. I'll let those guys speak regarding durability > > > over time > > and performance, but I'm impressed with the quality of the build. > I > > wasn't > > aware of a new, lighter version, or if the Montgomery blades can > be > > ordered > > in a different hdpe material than what I got or not. It sure > seems > > industrial strength to me, and in my opinion it's a superior > > solution to > > grounding than the original slide-up design. > > > > t > > > > > > > > /)) Tom Smith & Jane VanWinkle > > M15/345--Chukar > > M17/496--Unnamed > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > in/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

2 1

RE: M_Boats: Montgomery Maine cruise story
by bownez＠juno.com 03 Dec '05

03 Dec '05

Todd, Doug, Looks like you fellows had a fabulous cruise, I'm jealous! Thanks so much for sharing. Bones

1 0

remove me!
by J A & SYLVIA HEITCZMAN 02 Dec '05

02 Dec '05

Pls remove me from the owners list . I have dial up and it takes hours to download especially text w/pictures thanx, Jimmyjo

1 0

Montgomery Maine cruise story
by Doug Kelch 02 Dec '05

02 Dec '05

My new web site with the Maine cruise story is towards the end of this email. My funtigo site seems to plagued with problems and they don't seem to want address the issue. I have loaded close to 100 Maine photos on the site but it will not let you see more than the first 6. My other topics on Funtigo are also not functional for no known reason. All of the above is the reason it has taken so long to share any of the details of the Maine cruise. I now have a new web site and the only useful thing on it at the moment is the Maine cruise story. I use Cox cable as my ISP - they give one site, 10mb of free web space per email account and with each customer they will let you have up to 7 email accounts. They limit the traffic per web site to 300Mb per month per Web site. In order to make this work reasonably well I have actually put up 4 websites and distributed the Maine story over the 4 sites. Hopefully this will be invisible to you as the primary website and all of the secondary websites have links to all 4 parts of the Maine story but "home" may take you to one of the secondary sites. Each site has 20 - 40 pictures on 1 page so this is definitly not a dial up site - broadband only. Anyway come and take a look at a great cruise - the site is: http://members.cox.net/dkelch/ You will find the links to the Maine story on the left. I hope you enjoy it. If you have any problems let me know via doug_kelch(a)yahoo.com. If one of the 4 segments stops working mid month it may be because I have exceed the 300mb transfer limit. Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL Â Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com

1 0

RE: M_Boats: Sorry Jerry!
by Tom Smith 01 Dec '05

01 Dec '05

I think the original spelling was "Gerrie". t /)) Tom Smith & Jane VanWinkle M15/345--Chukar M17/496--Unnamed

1 0

Sorry Jerry!
by Nebwest2＠aol.com 01 Dec '05

01 Dec '05

Just re-read my last post to Rick about his 23 and saw that I spelled Jerry's name..."Gerry". Woops. Sorry Jerry! :-)

1 0