October 2004 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

M-15 mast unstepping quandry
by David Wood 17 Oct '04

17 Oct '04

> David, read your disertation on the mast. I have aquired this year > M-15 > hull # 189. The whole number is MMP151891281 as in 1981. Are our hull > numbers correct ??? Could that many M-15 boats have been made by > Jerry > Montgomery ??? Well, only Jerry Montgomery could answer that. But my hull number is MMP151630681, which would seem to indicate that 26 boats were built between June and December of 1981. That's quite an operation, if you ask me! And Jerry, if you're lurking out there. I hope you still have rigging assemblies available for the M-15. After getting a good look at mine, I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to replace the shrouds and forestay this winter (Along with a bunch of other little projects). Ah well, I guess I'm going to be learning a few things about the joys of small boat maintenance. Lucky me! David =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David W. Wood -=- dwood(a)woodatwork.com 1981 M15 -=- Hull #163

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M-15 Skeg
by Rick Langer 17 Oct '04

17 Oct '04

Jerry, Thanks for clarifying the M15 design story. I'm curious about the issue of a skeg. Would you briefly tell us the reasons why Lyle thought a skeg would be of help on the M15 hull and why you decided not to use one? Thanks, Rick Langer M15 #337 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:14:06 -0700 > From: "jerry" <jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-15 > To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Message-ID: <001901c4ad8c$82ca4fe0$87b64941@jerrym> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I think you must be down the line a little, Bill. > > The concept for the 17 was mine; I approached Lyle to design it for me. > > The concept for the 15 was also mine, and I thought that during the ensuing > 8 years I had learned enough to do it myself. By that time, Lyle considered > me to be somewhat of a protégé because I had spent a great deal of time > studying design, mostly under his wing. > > Actually, Lyle approved of the 15 very much, and once said that it was the > best looking boat I built. In the design stage, he looked over the drawings > several times, suggesting once that I give it a little fuller sections > forward (which I did), and another time suggested that I include a skeg, > aft, which I did not do. We discussed his thinking and my thinking at > length. He did approve of the boat and was probably as excited about the > boat as I was. > > I'm quite proud of the 15 but at the same time consider the 17 to be my best > boat; mostly because of the masthead rig, which because fo the cost factor > was not used in the 15. Look at the old Balboa 20, which was a Hess design > and had a 7/8 rig. The rig is probably the biggest reason that the M-17 is > a little faster boat in most conditions because of flexibility. > > Jerry > jerrymontgomery.org > >

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Re: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry
by chbenneck＠juno.com 16 Oct '04

16 Oct '04

Hi David, Been there: done that too. When I first got my M15, the aft mast carrier was a 2 x 4, and as I later determined, the original stainless steel mast support had been cut off. Trying the raise my mast for the first time, I had the reverse of your problem. The mast hit the edge of the companionway hatch, and the heel was too high to insert the mast bolt. So, the answer was, the aft end of the mast had to be raised so that the steeper angle allowed the mast heel to be in the right position, and not hit the edge of the CLOSED companionway hatch. (If the companionway hatch is open, then the aft end of the mast has to be still higher so that the mast clears the companion way hatch edge). Doing some re engineering, I built a new trailering mast support that fit into the rudder gudgeons. At the top end I made a socket to accept the cut off stainless steel mast support, and held it in place with epoxy and fiberglass scraps. Now I had a two height aft mast support: in the lower position for trailering, and with the stainless steel support placed into the wooden support, the aft end of the mast is high enough so that I can easily put the mast bolt in place (and the mast clears the forward edge of the companionway hatch in it's closed position) Then I can raise the mast easily; or lower it just as easily. The trick here is to have the aft end of the mast high enough so that it easily fits into the mast bracket and clears the hatch edge. .............oh, and a further reminder when raising your mast: Make sure that all your halyards; topping lift line; all run clear, or else you will have the mast raised and then will have to lower it again to untangle the mess. Been there! Done that too! Connie M15 #400

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RE: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry
by Hughston, Larry 16 Oct '04

16 Oct '04

David, read your disertation on the mast. I have aquired this year M-15 hull # 189. The whole number is MMP151891281 as in 1981. Are our hull numbers correct ??? Could that many M-15 boats have been made by Jerry Montgomery ??? Larry -----Original Message----- From: David Wood [mailto:dwood@woodatwork.com] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 1:55 PM To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry Yesterday I unstepped the mast on my M-15 for the first time in preparation for winter storage, and ran into a situation for which I was a little unprepared. When I unclipped the forestay and began lowering the mast (without removing the mast step bolt holding the mast into the mast step, merely loosening it), the mast wouldn't lie all the way down into the rear mast carrier. Instead it made contact with the hatch first, and I was afraid that the weight of the mast might crack the hatch (which was in the forward/open position). So I pulled the mast back up into its raised position and removed the bolt before lowering it down again--with GREAT effort--since I had nothing to "foot" that mast against. After reading how easy it was to step and unstep the mast on this boat, I figure that either I was doing something wrong, or my boat has a non-standard set-up which I'm going to want to rectify this winter. My boat is a 1981 M-15, and I'm not sure how many "improvements" have been committed on it. The aft mast carrier is not original equipment, I believe, since it doesn't slide into the rudder gudgeons, but rather is held up by a small wooden contraption the previous owner built in the rear of the cockpit. But the mast is level in the stored/down position, resting on the rear mast carrier and the bow pulpit (my old Trail-Rite trailer doesn't have a forward mast carrier on its tongue). It's just a real bitch getting it into that position. And when I lowered the mast yesterday while it was still bolted it was about 12-15" higher than level (over the mast carrier) in the rear when it made contact with the hatch. I'm just glad I was really careful when I was lowering it and pulled it back up as soon as I saw that plan A wasn't going too well. So is this normal? Does your mast get hung up on the hatch when you lower it? My initial solution is to simply build a taller mast carrier with pintles so that the mast can be lowered into it while still bolted without contacting the hatch. But I wonder whether it might be a problem to trailer the boat with the mast at an angle and therefore more likely to slide forward in a sudden stop--assuming I'm stupid enough not to secure it well. Sorry to be so long-winded. But what's up with that? David =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David W. Wood -=- dwood(a)woodatwork.com 1981 M15 -=- Hull #163 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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M-15 mast unstepping quandry
by David Wood 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

> Yes, given the mast crutch is at the factory original height, the mast > should settle in just fine with the hatch closed. Crutch height is > the key. I've got my crutch rigged so I have two levels; one high for > raising/lowering the mast, and one low for trailering (I prefer a > lower profile towing package). t > > > Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle > M15--345 Chukar > M17--064 Unnamed > Hi David, > > On our M15 (#407) the mast will contact the forward part of the > sliding hatch, if the sliding hatch is full open. We raise and lower > our mast with the bolt in place. The solution for us is to close the > sliding hatch. We do have a factory mast carrier; the base end of the > mast is supported by a U-shaped crutch that is part of our trailer. > And the top of the mast is supported in a removable stainless steel > crutch that fits into the rudder gudgeons. > > As I recall, when looking at the boat with the mast secured in the > crutches, the mast is higher by several inches at the transom than at > the bow. Our bow mast support is just a few inches above our bow > pulpit. > > Hope this helps, > Randy Graves > M15 #407 D'oh! Close the hatch, dummy! I went out to my temporary driveway mooring and tried to raise the mast with the hatch closed, and sure enough, works like a charm. As Bugs Bunny would say: What a maroon! So much for "There are no stupid questions." Thanks for all your replies. I'll try to work things through a bit better before I bother y'all in the future. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David W. Wood -=- dwood(a)woodatwork.com 1981 M15 -=- Hull #163

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RE: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry
by Hughston, Larry 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

Thanks for the rely. ---Larry Hull# 189 -----Original Message----- From: David Wood [mailto:dwood@woodatwork.com] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:00 PM To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry > David, read your disertation on the mast. I have aquired this year > M-15 > hull # 189. The whole number is MMP151891281 as in 1981. Are our hull > numbers correct ??? Could that many M-15 boats have been made by > Jerry > Montgomery ??? Well, only Jerry Montgomery could answer that. But my hull number is MMP151630681, which would seem to indicate that 26 boats were built between June and December of 1981. That's quite an operation, if you ask me! And Jerry, if you're lurking out there. I hope you still have rigging assemblies available for the M-15. After getting a good look at mine, I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to replace the shrouds and forestay this winter (Along with a bunch of other little projects). Ah well, I guess I'm going to be learning a few things about the joys of small boat maintenance. Lucky me! David =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David W. Wood -=- dwood(a)woodatwork.com 1981 M15 -=- Hull #163 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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RE: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry
by Smith, Tom 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

Yes, given the mast crutch is at the factory original height, the mast should settle in just fine with the hatch closed. Crutch height is the key. I've got my crutch rigged so I have two levels; one high for raising/lowering the mast, and one low for trailering (I prefer a lower profile towing package). t Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle M15--345 Chukar M17--064 Unnamed -----Original Message----- From: RandyG [mailto:RandyG@cite.nic.edu] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 2:24 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry Hi David, On our M15 (#407) the mast will contact the forward part of the sliding hatch, if the sliding hatch is full open. We raise and lower our mast with the bolt in place. The solution for us is to close the sliding hatch. We do have a factory mast carrier; the base end of the mast is supported by a U-shaped crutch that is part of our trailer. And the top of the mast is supported in a removable stainless steel crutch that fits into the rudder gudgeons. As I recall, when looking at the boat with the mast secured in the crutches, the mast is higher by several inches at the transom than at the bow. Our bow mast support is just a few inches above our bow pulpit. Hope this helps, Randy Graves M15 #407 ________________________________ From: montgomery_boats-bounces+randyg=cite.nic.edu(a)mailman.xmission.com on behalf of David Wood Sent: Fri 10/15/2004 1:55 PM To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry Yesterday I unstepped the mast on my M-15 for the first time in preparation for winter storage, and ran into a situation for which I was a little unprepared. When I unclipped the forestay and began lowering the mast (without removing the mast step bolt holding the mast into the mast step, merely loosening it), the mast wouldn't lie all the way down into the rear mast carrier. Instead it made contact with the hatch first, and I was afraid that the weight of the mast might crack the hatch (which was in the forward/open position). So I pulled the mast back up into its raised position and removed the bolt before lowering it down again--with GREAT effort--since I had nothing to "foot" that mast against. After reading how easy it was to step and unstep the mast on this boat, I figure that either I was doing something wrong, or my boat has a non-standard set-up which I'm going to want to rectify this winter. My boat is a 1981 M-15, and I'm not sure how many "improvements" have been committed on it. The aft mast carrier is not original equipment, I believe, since it doesn't slide into the rudder gudgeons, but rather is held up by a small wooden contraption the previous owner built in the rear of the cockpit. But the mast is level in the stored/down position, resting on the rear mast carrier and the bow pulpit (my old Trail-Rite trailer doesn't have a forward mast carrier on its tongue). It's just a real bitch getting it into that position. And when I lowered the mast yesterday while it was still bolted it was about 12-15" higher than level (over the mast carrier) in the rear when it made contact with the hatch. I'm just glad I was really careful when I was lowering it and pulled it back up as soon as I saw that plan A wasn't going too well. So is this normal? Does your mast get hung up on the hatch when you lower it? My initial solution is to simply build a taller mast carrier with pintles so that the mast can be lowered into it while still bolted without contacting the hatch. But I wonder whether it might be a problem to trailer the boat with the mast at an angle and therefore more likely to slide forward in a sudden stop--assuming I'm stupid enough not to secure it well. Sorry to be so long-winded. But what's up with that? David =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David W. Wood -=- dwood(a)woodatwork.com 1981 M15 -=- Hull #163 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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RE: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry
by RandyG 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

Hi David, On our M15 (#407) the mast will contact the forward part of the sliding hatch, if the sliding hatch is full open. We raise and lower our mast with the bolt in place. The solution for us is to close the sliding hatch. We do have a factory mast carrier; the base end of the mast is supported by a U-shaped crutch that is part of our trailer. And the top of the mast is supported in a removable stainless steel crutch that fits into the rudder gudgeons. As I recall, when looking at the boat with the mast secured in the crutches, the mast is higher by several inches at the transom than at the bow. Our bow mast support is just a few inches above our bow pulpit. Hope this helps, Randy Graves M15 #407 ________________________________ From: montgomery_boats-bounces+randyg=cite.nic.edu(a)mailman.xmission.com on behalf of David Wood Sent: Fri 10/15/2004 1:55 PM To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: M-15 mast unstepping quandry Yesterday I unstepped the mast on my M-15 for the first time in preparation for winter storage, and ran into a situation for which I was a little unprepared. When I unclipped the forestay and began lowering the mast (without removing the mast step bolt holding the mast into the mast step, merely loosening it), the mast wouldn't lie all the way down into the rear mast carrier. Instead it made contact with the hatch first, and I was afraid that the weight of the mast might crack the hatch (which was in the forward/open position). So I pulled the mast back up into its raised position and removed the bolt before lowering it down again--with GREAT effort--since I had nothing to "foot" that mast against. After reading how easy it was to step and unstep the mast on this boat, I figure that either I was doing something wrong, or my boat has a non-standard set-up which I'm going to want to rectify this winter. My boat is a 1981 M-15, and I'm not sure how many "improvements" have been committed on it. The aft mast carrier is not original equipment, I believe, since it doesn't slide into the rudder gudgeons, but rather is held up by a small wooden contraption the previous owner built in the rear of the cockpit. But the mast is level in the stored/down position, resting on the rear mast carrier and the bow pulpit (my old Trail-Rite trailer doesn't have a forward mast carrier on its tongue). It's just a real bitch getting it into that position. And when I lowered the mast yesterday while it was still bolted it was about 12-15" higher than level (over the mast carrier) in the rear when it made contact with the hatch. I'm just glad I was really careful when I was lowering it and pulled it back up as soon as I saw that plan A wasn't going too well. So is this normal? Does your mast get hung up on the hatch when you lower it? My initial solution is to simply build a taller mast carrier with pintles so that the mast can be lowered into it while still bolted without contacting the hatch. But I wonder whether it might be a problem to trailer the boat with the mast at an angle and therefore more likely to slide forward in a sudden stop--assuming I'm stupid enough not to secure it well. Sorry to be so long-winded. But what's up with that? David =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David W. Wood -=- dwood(a)woodatwork.com 1981 M15 -=- Hull #163 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Batens M-17
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 15 Oct '04

15 Oct '04

Connie, you are so right about the Ash being nice. My experience with Ash is from 9 and 10 foot oars used on rafts and drift boats in rivers. It takes alot to damage an Ash oar. I did a web search on battens and came up with some intersting data on battens. Uhlman Sail seems to have the best info on them. According to them the top batten is the most important as it controls how high you can point ( and other things) They recommend to use tapered fiberglass in the top or maybe the top two and regular with the rest. So far that seems to be the best idea. Tapered battens (especially long ones) are very expensive compared to standard and I'm back to 12 hour days. The site also describes in a bit of detail about using different strength battens (top one or two) for different winds... In the bay area, we have some pretty predictable winds. From now until Aprl, no reefs are needed and there are lots of lulls. All the rest of the time it's reef before you leave the dock and hold on. So in this case, it may be prudent to consider two sets of battens (top one or two) I'd probably try to see if I feel a difference and then put one away where I won't remember where I put it. Maybe I'll stick with one set Bill M-17 "Tipperary"

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Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Batens M-17
by chbenneck＠juno.com 14 Oct '04

14 Oct '04

Hi Bill, Ash battens were standard before that magic stuff, fiberglass appeared. All you need is some ash stock, a sharp plane, and a bit of patience and you can produce your own battens. If you can go dumpster diving at your local marina, maybe you can find ash battens that the "bigger" boys have discarded in favor of the new and improved (? - and much more expensive 'glass ones). Then a bit of time in the shop with a sharp plane, and a back saw and you have a new set of battens made to your personal specifications. My big boat ash battens lasted me as long as I owned the boat - 26 years - and never broke in any of the weather we encountered. Ash is nice wood! Connie

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