November 2003 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: Just toss it overboard!
by IDCLLC＠aol.com 08 Nov '03

08 Nov '03

In a message dated 10/28/2003 3:56:40 AM Central Standard Time, mazemusic(a)yahoo.com writes: Thanks, Doug. I am curious to hear how the sculling works. So...NO ONE has rowed an M-15? -Rusty The tough thing about adapting a Montgomery for rowing would be the freeboard. You want to be down close to the water to create an efficient entry angle for the oar. This is why many owner built designs have rowing ports that can be opened or closed as necessary. Unfortunately, the thick coamings of a Monty would make such modification difficult or impossible, and you'd still be sitting pretty high due to the self draining cockpit design. Still, I suppose you could try it with extra long oars...It's said that Butcher Boy, a turn of the century workboat, was fast to row, and there's evidence that Lyle Hess drew inspiration from its legendary design. I've got oar locks to mount on my P-15 (which has similar drawbacks, but not quite as extreme since it's a smaller boat), but I haven't gotten around to putting them on. A friend of mine rows his Potter miles at a time with 8' oars, but he's an extraordinary fellow. We rely on a Minn Kota 42 for maneuvoring and sometimes propulsion in calms. It's powered by a tiny U-1 battery, only thirty amps! How do we get away with this? First, we never have current to deal with. Second, mostly it's used to maneuvor in and out of docks, launch ramps, etc. Third, when we have some distance to go, even a mile or two, we use low power, which is vastly more efficient, and we're patient. BTW, the trolling motor works wonderfully for motor sailing in light fluky air, again on a low setting, like 2 or 3 out of a range of 5. It's dead quiet, you know. Under these conditions, the motor gets reved up when the wind pipes up, and makes makes me wonder if the motor turns into a generator and starts recharging the battery. Depends on the motor design, I'm told...its an area of development I'd love to pursue, if I had the time. Cheers Steve Tyree, P-15 #2098 "Amy Ann"

4 4

electrical engineering question
by MC Carpenter 08 Nov '03

08 Nov '03

are there any electrical engineers out there listening: I was told today at an large alternate energy store that if you use normal gel cell, also called AGM, or standard deep cycle liquid acid batteries between 85 amps and 150 amps (size) you do not need a charge control on the solar panels if the solar panels are the low voltage type at 16.8 volts closed circuit or less. But this information is not true for the high efficient panel types with a close circuit voltage of 17.volts or greater. some do 21 volts he said He gave these four reasons, but is he telling the truth ????? 1. With direct connection - - the battery can not be over charged because the charge rate will be reduced to what ever the battery voltage is holding at, it will automatically charge faster a low battery but unfortunately will never charge 100% full for the same reason. 2. With direct connection - - The internal resistance of the battery will increase as the battery gets charged higher 3. With direct connection - - the size of battery (mass, meaning amps capacity) will absorb long before any boil rate can be achieved. 4. The normal charge wires for the short distance on a small boat about 40 feet of number #12 tin coated with the resistance of two battery diode pack ( spilt/back feed diode) puts enough stress on the system to help provide any over charging The plan is purchase One (maybe two in parallel ) Each unit , Kyocera, 48 watt panels, charge voltage, 16.1 volts at 2.3 amps A two battery charge diodes to prevent back feeding the second battery and two 85 amp hour batteries , one for general use and one as back-up He also quoted that if you use a battery with an hour amp rating of greater than 200 amps with direct hook-up , again that is with the lower charging voltage, it would take many weeks to charge the battery for the same reason, the mass or the volume of the charge area. Because the closer it got to a full charge the slower it would take the charge. AND if you must buy a charge controller to pay the extra amount and buy the "constant voltage" ( like the one called Solar Boost ) type charge control. Meaning the device keeps the charge voltage constant and varies the amps and not the other way around used on cheap charge controllers. Any help here would be really helpful.

1 0

Re: M_Boats: Dry Ice for a small freezer
by chbenneck＠juno.com 08 Nov '03

08 Nov '03

Hi Rachel, I would be leery of using dry ice before getting answers to the question: Is carbon dioxide lighter or heavier than air? If it is heavier, then your hull can fill up with carbon dioxide, displacing the air you need to breathe when you lay down on your berth................... Not a nice thought! You need oxygen, not carbon dioxide to stay alive. If it is lighter, then it will dissipate and no harm can be done. Connie

4 3

flotation
by Francene Lebowitz 08 Nov '03

08 Nov '03

3 4

RE: M_Boats: Dry Ice for a small freezer
by Morris, Giles 07 Nov '03

07 Nov '03

>horrible greenhouse gas Well, yes... But I wouldn't worry about it in this context because (surely) the CO2 that gets frozen is extracted from the air. Or am I wrong about this -- do they make it from something? As to displacement of oxygen as the melting CO2 displaces air in the cabin: I'd be interested in knowing about that because dry ice seems to be just the thing for keeping stuff cool. A friend had some last for (could this really be true?) nearly a week in his coolbox on his last cruise. I must confess to producing considerable CO2 myself every day, too. Giles Morris

3 2

rowing
by MC Carpenter 07 Nov '03

07 Nov '03

those interested in oars check out Sawyer and Carlisle, they have emergency , life-boat , white water

1 0

Re: M_Boats: Dry Ice for a small freezer
by chbenneck＠juno.com 07 Nov '03

07 Nov '03

Rachel, I can't comment on modern boat's ice box insulation, but on our old boat - built '66 in Holland - insulation in the sides and bottom of the ice box was rudimentary. There was none at all on the top surface, and that was where the stove radiated it's heat downwards, directly into the area you were trying to keep cool..............! So when I decided to go to a mechanical refrigeration system - belt driven from the engine - my first task was to tear out the whole ice box and rebuild it with "good" insulation. This was a major job by itself, but the end results were well worth the effort. Maybe that is how you have to start too. Then even small amounts of ice will stay for quite a long time (we brought ice cubes from home for the weekend, and many Sunday nights we took ice cubes back home again). Connie

1 0

RE: M_Boats: M15 bow eye location
by Smith, Tom 07 Nov '03

07 Nov '03

Can anyone tell me the location of the stock bow eye on an M15? I could guesstimate a reasonable spot, but thought maybe there was a standard... Thanks. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed

3 2

RE: M_Boats: portable power
by Smith, Tom 07 Nov '03

07 Nov '03

I mentioned another approach to battery power a couple days ago. Here's verbatim the little piece out of Sail: Dwain Lovett sails his Catalina 22 on Lake Ray Hubbard outside of Dallas. Because he has only occasional need for running lights and even less for cabin lights, he didn't want a standard battery aboard. He points out that " the only way to keep it charged would be via shore power to a float charger," as charging with his 5hp Honda 4 stroke outboard is not an option. Having already had one battery die from infrequent use, he decided to use a portable jump-starter (available at many auto-parts stores). He connects it to his master terminals in place of a 12 volt battery and finds it can power his infrequently used lights. The device comes in a plastic case with a handle and can easily be carried home for recharging. Cost is less than $40. This seems like an ideal solution for me. Anybody see any holes in this? t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed -----Original Message----- From: Smith, Tom Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:23 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: gel battery I don't have the magazine in front of me right now, but I think in this month's issue of Sail, on the things that work page, someone talks about using one of those emergency starting units as a boat battery. Sorry for the lack of info and context on this, but for those without charging systems and just short term use requirements, this might be of interest. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed -----Original Message----- From: Harvey Wilson [mailto:HarveyWilson@compuserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: gel battery Hi.. The Optimas come in 3 varieties...red is starting batteries, the blue is the deep discharge (house batt) Can't remember what the yellow is...maybe a combination?? Do a Google search on Optima and you'll find their website and more info then you want to know about batteries. Oh yes...you _DO_ have a good idea of what your current drain is, (hopefully) ?? I've only used West Marines little gel cell, and charge it after everyuse. Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats This message was scanned for viruses!! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats This message was scanned for viruses!!

2 1

Dry Ice and Chemistry 101
by Ludlow, Don 07 Nov '03

07 Nov '03

Giles: Ok here is an engineer's approach. The cabin on an M-17 has an estimated air vol of 170 cubic ft (12.75 lbs of air), of which 21% is oxygen (2.6#), and the balance is nitrogen. If we add two lbs of dry ice (CO2) which melts into a heavier gas, the CO2 displaces 16 cubic ft of air out the hatch and settles to the bottom. If we run a small fan and mix the remaining three gases (2.4# of O2, 9.1#of N2, 2.0# of CO2) we get an oxygen content of 17.8% which is too low for human consumption. All of this is theoretical and doesnt consider the fact that the CO2 is released over a long period of time and some will be swept away by air blowing into the cabin. Still, I'd be carefull and might add some ventilation. At the plant where I worked, the operators oveheated a rotating feeder and jammed it. The maintenance manager had a great idea, cool it down by packing the cavity with dry ice. He sent two mechanics into town in the company station waggon to pick up 100# of dry ice. As they were returning to the mill, it started to rain and they ROLLED UP THE WINDOWS. They had splitting headackes and we had to send them to first aid, then home. We were lucky the drive was short. Something to think about. Fair winds Don -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:49 PM To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 9, Issue 18 Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Dry Ice for a small freezer (Ludlow, Don) 2. Re: New Old M-17 (Bill Sylvester) 3. RE: Dry Ice for a small freezer (Morris, Giles) 4. Re: 14.1 volts charging (bownez(a)juno.com) 5. Re: Re: New Old M-17 (Larry Yake) 6. Re: Re: New Old M-17 (Bill Sylvester) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 15:44:47 -0600 From: "Ludlow, Don" <LudlowD(a)BEK.com> Subject: M_Boats: Dry Ice for a small freezer To: "'montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com'" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <6BA6B6935520D31195940000C91B62C5020DE71D(a)mobnt1.bek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Re: Dry Ice - I don't know about the impact of dry ice on the FRP hull but I would assume that enough insulation would solve the problem. A word of caution though, dry ice is frozen carbon dioxide (that horrible greenhouse gas only released by US industry which is destroying the planet)As the dry ice melts (sublimes) it turns into CO2 gas and fills the interior of the boat, displacing oxygen. This can kill you. Re: mast rail - I saw a picture of a Potter 14 with a handrail around the mast. Looks cool and probably wouldn't get in the way of rigging the mast. You would have to route the jib sheets in a way that they would not hang-up on the handrail. Re: Floatation rings - pool noodles sound great. I use them for bumpers, cut in 2 ft lengths with a line through the hole (plastic washers hold the line) red matches my stripe. I'll check Walmart for the big ones. Re: Lift of my M-15. Doug, thanks for the response. I may try the bow and mid cleats for a trial lift but with the mast up, I'm thinking that special lift eyes may be the answer. I agree that straps would wedge between the hull and trailer bunks but would use them if I went under the boat while she was lifted. Fair winds - Don Ludlow -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:26 PM To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 9, Issue 17 Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..." Today's Topics: 1. mast hand rail (MC Carpenter) 2. fiberglass and dry ice (MC Carpenter) 3. floatation ring (MC Carpenter) 4. Re: floatation ring (Howard Audsley) 5. Re: floatation ring (Rachel) 6. RE: gel battery (Smith, Tom) 7. Re: floatation ring (The Tentmakers) 8. Re: floatation ring (Mark Escovedo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:55:51 -0500 From: "MC Carpenter" <southisland2(a)earthlink.net> Subject: M_Boats: mast hand rail To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <000701c3a422$441695c0$cb154bab@D60D0Q21> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" seen today in San Diego, a short small handrail about nine inches high on the deck and 3/4 of the way around the mast (( curved around the front -bow- to both sides but not on the stern side )). safety plus - not only to hold on to but also to tie lines. do you think something like that would get in the way of stepping the mast ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:39:03 -0500 From: "MC Carpenter" <southisland2(a)earthlink.net> Subject: M_Boats: fiberglass and dry ice To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <000b01c3a428$59808d70$e81c4bab@D60D0Q21> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" does any one know if using dry ice near on or on the fiber hull will cause and damage to the structural integrity to the resin fiberglass hull, If I was to build in a small freezer. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:58:55 -0500 From: "MC Carpenter" <southisland2(a)earthlink.net> Subject: M_Boats: floatation ring To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <000701c3a42b$132ef7a0$e81c4bab@D60D0Q21> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" does any know who or where I can get the floatation ring that fits around the boat like the one that is shown on the Walker Bay Boats, I called the company and the girl that answered said it only comes with the dinghy they sell. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 05:32:52 -0600 From: Howard Audsley <haudsley(a)tranquility.net> Subject: Re: M_Boats: floatation ring To: Montgomery Boats List <montgomery_boats(a)lists.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BBCF8D84.4134%haudsley(a)tranquility.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" The "poor mans" version of this is to make your own out of a set of those hollow center boat bumpers. Pick the size you want. Just string them together like popcorn at Christmas. You can use eye bolts along the gunnels to hold them up. They float and act as bumpers to hold the hard dingy off the mothership. Howaard On 11/5/03 11:58 PM, "MC Carpenter" <southisland2(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > does any know who or where I can get the floatation ring that fits around > the boat like the one that is shown on the Walker Bay Boats, I called the > company and the girl that answered said it only comes with the dinghy they > sell. > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:12:10 -0800 From: Rachel <penokee(a)cheqnet.net> Subject: Re: M_Boats: floatation ring To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <F999CBBB-1073-11D8-B326-0003938281E0(a)cheqnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi, I checked into this for my 7' Fatty Knees dinghy also. IIRC, the first place I checked (Add-a-Bouy?) didn't make them anymore or was out of business. Then I got a link for another place, that I can't remember, but that had a name that had something to do with "doggie." I let that go because it was going to be prohibitively expensive ($400? $700? it was so expensive I immediately put it out of mind). I also considered the fender idea that Howard describes, but I don't have that many small fenders, so it had the disadvantage of being a bit on the pricey side - unless you already have all the fenders and need a place to store them ;-) They're also slightly heavy. That idea still lurks as an option though. The idea I'm working on now (still in progress) involves two large "pool noodles" -- the brightly-colored foam tubes kids play with. This spring Wal-Mart had some extra-fat ones for $5 apiece. I bought a couple and immediately rigged them up temporarily, just to try them out, one just under each gunwale the length of the boat. They're hollow, so you can run ropes through the middle. The added flotation was amazing. As in, you could just about stand on the gunwales without tipping the dinghy or filling it with water. The next thing I did was buy a couple of feet of clear hose and cut it into ~6" lengths, which I jam fit into all the ends, to reinforce them. At this point you could use them as is, with perhaps one strap-eye mounted below the middle section, to keep them from riding up. I haven't gotten this far yet. Since I have some Sunbrella-type scraps, I'm considering sewing some sleeves for them which would incorporate a couple of tie down points. We'll see. This project is going hand-in-hand with the one where I'm just adding a smaller gunwale pad for everyday use. I envision the noodles for snorkeling and/or heavy loads in rough weather. Were you thinking of this for your M-15 or for a dinghy? FWIW --- Rachel Former owner, M-17 #334 Former owner, M-15 #517 Currently cruising on Westsail 32 #412 On Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 03:32 AM, Howard Audsley wrote: > The "poor mans" version of this is to make your own out of a set of > those > hollow center boat bumpers. Pick the size you want. Just string them > together like popcorn at Christmas. You can use eye bolts along the > gunnels > to hold them up. They float and act as bumpers to hold the hard dingy > off > the mothership. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:23:18 -0800 From: "Smith, Tom" <Tom.Smith(a)itron.com> Subject: RE: M_Boats: gel battery To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <E15906480B361D4BAA27ADC6EDCAB9EE16DA7F(a)spokane-mx3.itron.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I don't have the magazine in front of me right now, but I think in this month's issue of Sail, on the things that work page, someone talks about using one of those emergency starting units as a boat battery. Sorry for the lack of info and context on this, but for those without charging systems and just short term use requirements, this might be of interest. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed -----Original Message----- From: Harvey Wilson [mailto:HarveyWilson@compuserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: gel battery Hi.. The Optimas come in 3 varieties...red is starting batteries, the blue is the deep discharge (house batt) Can't remember what the yellow is...maybe a combination?? Do a Google search on Optima and you'll find their website and more info then you want to know about batteries. Oh yes...you _DO_ have a good idea of what your current drain is, (hopefully) ?? I've only used West Marines little gel cell, and charge it after everyuse. Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats This message was scanned for viruses!! ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:25:40 -0700 From: "The Tentmakers" <the_tentmakers(a)hotmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: floatation ring To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <Law10-F118s8FSA4Ale000453d8(a)hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/private/montgomery_boats/attachm ents/20031106/95f4b4e6/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:25:20 -0800 From: "Mark Escovedo" <m_escovedo(a)msn.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: floatation ring To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BAY3-DAV55tZu9IVdRO0007fb63(a)hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If it's added buoyancy your trying to achieve you may want to look at the inflatable bags that are installed on the "OPTIMIST" sailing dinghy. They are installed forward of the midship thwart along the inside rail of the boat. Granted the OPTIMIST is a tiny boat but maybe you could double up the number of bags. They are collapsible so when you're not using them they can be deflated to give you more interior space. I'm not sure who makes the bags but they should be no problem to locate. the INTERNATIONAL OPTIMIST is the largest one design sailboat class in the world. Good Luck Mark Escovedo 'Chunky Dory" M17 F/D #103 ----- Original Message ----- From: Rachel To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:12 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: floatation ring Hi, I checked into this for my 7' Fatty Knees dinghy also. IIRC, the first place I checked (Add-a-Bouy?) didn't make them anymore or was out of business. Then I got a link for another place, that I can't remember, but that had a name that had something to do with "doggie." I let that go because it was going to be prohibitively expensive ($400? $700? it was so expensive I immediately put it out of mind). I also considered the fender idea that Howard describes, but I don't have that many small fenders, so it had the disadvantage of being a bit on the pricey side - unless you already have all the fenders and need a place to store them ;-) They're also slightly heavy. That idea still lurks as an option though. The idea I'm working on now (still in progress) involves two large "pool noodles" -- the brightly-colored foam tubes kids play with. This spring Wal-Mart had some extra-fat ones for $5 apiece. I bought a couple and immediately rigged them up temporarily, just to try them out, one just under each gunwale the length of the boat. They're hollow, so you can run ropes through the middle. The added flotation was amazing. As in, you could just about stand on the gunwales without tipping the dinghy or filling it with water. The next thing I did was buy a couple of feet of clear hose and cut it into ~6" lengths, which I jam fit into all the ends, to reinforce them. At this point you could use them as is, with perhaps one strap-eye mounted below the middle section, to keep them from riding up. I haven't gotten this far yet. Since I have some Sunbrella-type scraps, I'm considering sewing some sleeves for them which would incorporate a couple of tie down points. We'll see. This project is going hand-in-hand with the one where I'm just adding a smaller gunwale pad for everyday use. I envision the noodles for snorkeling and/or heavy loads in rough weather. Were you thinking of this for your M-15 or for a dinghy? FWIW --- Rachel Former owner, M-17 #334 Former owner, M-15 #517 Currently cruising on Westsail 32 #412 On Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 03:32 AM, Howard Audsley wrote: > The "poor mans" version of this is to make your own out of a set of > those > hollow center boat bumpers. Pick the size you want. Just string them > together like popcorn at Christmas. You can use eye bolts along the > gunnels > to hold them up. They float and act as bumpers to hold the hard dingy > off > the mothership. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

2 1