November 2003 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Some M17 Questions
by Smith, Tom 17 Jan '04

17 Jan '04

Good morning fellow Montgomery owners. I recently purchased an M17 and have several questions, but none so pressing at this; when sailing the boat yesterday, I discovered that what the former owner said was true, namely that this particular M17 takes water in through the top of the CB trunk, where the CB pendent drops through. Even in what I consider pretty tame conditions (8-10 knots of wind and mild chop), a fair amount of water spouts up through the hole. When viewed from above, it certainly appeared if if the trunk was full to the top with water, which seemed odd to me, but maybe normal. I say that because the M15 cockpit actually drains through the trunk. The boat is a '75, and the cb works freely and was deployed yesterday. Simply stuffing a rag into the hole solves the problem, but I wondered if anyone else had experienced this phenomenon. Thanks. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar

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Re: montgomery rendezvous
by Derfsails＠aol.com 17 Jan '04

17 Jan '04

Hi Larry, I would like very much to participate in a Montgomery rendezvous in the San Juan's next summer. We normally go up in June and spend two or three months. When we had our 30, we would launch at Anacortes because of the lifts, groceries, West Marine, trailer storage, and the extremely helpful people. However, with the 23 we could put in just about anywhere that would be convenient for other sailors that would be interested in getting together sometime over the summer. Maybe over this winter something could be set up that would allow as many people to get together as possible. It would sure be nice to put some faces and personalities with all the M-notes I've been reading over the last year or two. Thanks for the response. Fred (derf)

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M17 line drawings
by wayne yeargain 16 Jan '04

16 Jan '04

Jerry If you are still intrested I'd like to try to intregate your cad drawings with my system and complete any areas necessary to get a complete plan & elevation drawings. My boat is a '76 M17 and I can take measurements for items that are not on your drawings. Let me know what you think Contact me off line at saltydog(a)ev1.net Wayne

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M17 line drawings
by wayne yeargain 14 Dec '03

14 Dec '03

Hi Jerry: Sorry your e-mail bounced, don't know why it did that - I am at the same address, must have been a gremlin in the wire. Any way thanks for the M17 line drawings, I got them today, & am going to start some drawings right away. I'll send you and any one who is intrested, some copies when I'm done. Had my M17 out Sat. about 10knt wind and it just romped along like the throughbred it is......... life is sweet. Happy sails Wayne

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RE: M_Boats: Boat Advise - Thanks!
by Morris, Giles 13 Dec '03

13 Dec '03

> 6ft 1 inch headroom Perhaps I'm just getting inflexible (physically, that is) but standing headroom seems to make such a difference in overall perception of well-being. It doesn't have to be everywhere, but being able to stand up inside is such a joy! It's different with my M-15 (I've never been aboard an m-17) because in my mind, the cabin is a tent -- and therefore becomes luxurious by tent standards. I'd mentioned the Compac 23 in another reply to this thread, and it seems rather wonderful, but I'll never (well... who can say "never" about anything?) own one because of the headroom. I know that other people feel differently about this. (Rambling even further from the point) At the Annapolis show a couple of weeks ago, I went aboard a reproduction of an English wooden fishing boat that a couple had built for themselves. They (and the boat) seemed lovely people and a younger version of the Pardeys who had built their boat in just over two years from basic materials (i.e. logs!). Although it was well over 30 ft on deck it would be considered small below, but it was one of the most comfortable boats I've ever been aboard. It only had standing headroom in the doghouse under the aft hatchway and in the workshop, but it was enough. Was anybody else on the list lucky enough to go aboard that wonderful boat? Although it was based on an older English design, it felt very much like Lyle Hess's work -- or perhaps that should be the other way round. Giles Morris -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Fleming Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:24 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Boat Advise - Thanks! Randy Graves wrote: > Friends, > > Our trips would be roughly 4 weeks in length with just the 2 of us. > Our target destinations, initially, would be to sail in and around > the Pacific North West; San Juan's, Desolation Sound, etc. The boat > would need to be trailerable with our 3/4 ton Van with a maximum > trailering capacity of 8,100 lbs. Target price range for boat & > trailer is $15 - $20,000. Things that are important to us in a boat > are; strong & sea worthy, sailable by 1 person, an old boat that we > can invest some time and money into and use for many years and in a > variety of sailing conditions. A boat that would hold the bulk of its > value. In essence; a larger Montgomery! Randy, It's somewhat heretical (or more like unfaithful, nautical philandering!) to discuss other boats when you're committed to a particular beauty, but here goes ... As a committed Montgomery owner, the only other boat I'd consider for your (or my) requirements would be a Laguna 26. There aren't many out there, but it's a good one, and I'd say it'd work. My good friends have one (they're former M-15 owners), and have sailed it in the San Juan's for the summer. They have trailered it all around the West, even sailing it in Jackson Lake at the foot of the Tetons. It is currently in Pimlico Sound, North Carolina, awaiting my friend's return from his year of duty in Iraq. Our family is getting bigger, and my wife is tired of hitting her head. One of the nicest things about the Laguna 26 is it has 6ft 1 inch headroom. There's plenty of room, quite a lot actually for a 26 footer. It comes in several different interior configurations: port/starboard settees, port U-shaped seat with starboard galley & nav station, and another kind. Like any boat that size, it has to be specially rigged for single-handling. You need to make sure it either has it, or you know how to install it. On a Montgomery 15 or 17, it hardly matters. As long as you have a foresail downhaul, which are trivial to make, everything else can be handled from the cockpit no matter how it's rigged. Another difference is that the Laguna 26 has shallow cockpit coamings, unlike the deep ones of the Montgomery. It's definitely a different feeling. The bridgedeck on the Laguna is a little better than M-17 but not much. I believe there is one currently for sail in Portland, OR, for about 15K asking price. Regards, John Fleming M-17: "Star Cross'd" _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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Re: M_Boats: San Juan trip
by bownez＠juno.com 30 Nov '03

30 Nov '03

Hi Larry, Yes, please keep me posted. I've been trying to make it out to Washington and the San Juan group for quite a while, this could be the bait to lure me in. Wish I had the time to trailer my M17 out and stay for a while. I'll see what I can work out. Thanks, Bones ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

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Re: M_Boats: M 17 Sail Inventory, Roller Furling
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 30 Nov '03

30 Nov '03

In a message dated 10/30/03 3:53:04 PM, fml162(a)aol.com writes: >Good evening, All. > My wife, Karol, and I are going to California in December (if it is >still there) to visit with Bob E. about buying our second M17. The first was >about 20 years ago when we were in our early forties and had good knees and backs. > The rule at that time was more sails and complicated rigging was more fun! > Go-fast stuff was hot. Now, however, age has taken its toll somewhat, >and we tend to equate fun with convenience and just spending time on the water >without hassel. > We are currently discussing sail inventory and whether to include a >roller furling rig on the new boat. The anticpated use for the first year >will be primarily as a day sailor off of a mooring in Southwest Harbor, Maine where >the average afternoon winds average about 12 kts. >I have had roller furlers on other larger boats, but would appreciate >your collective input on a smaller boat which is going to be taken on and >off a trailer several times a season. How about ideas on sail inventory and >sizes of headsails? > Cheers and thanks. Have a great day. Skip Langley, Rockport, >Texas/Southwest Harbor, Maine Hi Skip, I have to confess that I have been considering a furler for 'bebe' (M15). In my research, it seems that very few small boat furlers are actually capable of roller *reefing*. This is not acceptable to me, as my primary motive is to facilitate easier headsail change/reduction while short handed (and in extreme conditions). The only one I found that is a true reefing/furling system is arguably overkill for the M15, but I am considering it nonethelss. The 'SnapFurl Small Boat' (Schaefer #CF-500) actually has the foil section that allows the sail to roll and keep shape. I have talked to my sailmaker (Bob Hogin) about a tri-radial cut headsail that will ostensibly keep decent shape when rolled to about 30-40%. In any event, thought you might be interested in this furler. CDI might make one as well, but I am not as impressed of what I have seen of their quality. Scott, M15 #478

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Re: M_Boats: standing rigging
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 30 Nov '03

30 Nov '03

In a message dated 11/28/03 8:28:05 PM, southisland2(a)earthlink.net writes: >Does any one have experience with different kinds of make your own standing >rigging, the likes, the dislikes, the problems with, the failures with >certain types. > >The some names are Navtec Dyform or Sta-Lock. > >Mike Mike, I have some (limited) experience with swageless fittings, and am researching them for an upcoming project on another boat (non-Montgomery). The benefits of swageless fittings are manifold. Unlike a swaged fitting, most swageless fittings can be disassembled and inspected. Also, the fittings can be reused (with new cones/wedges/formers), and therefore are often cheaper in the long run. Done properly, tests have proven them to be stronger than swaged fittings--often by a wide margin. Field repairs/replacements are possible with simple hand tools (can't do that with a swaged fitting). If properly sealed with silicone during assembly, they are more corrosion resistant than swaged fittings. The only failures I have heard about were due to two factors. First, there were some failures that occurred in the first generation of fittings due to bad metals. I believe this was corrected early on, and that there have not been problems since. Second, there have been some failures due to human error/poor assembly technique, but the same could be said of swaged fittings. Brion (yes that is the correct spelling) Toss of Port Townsend, WA, my favorite rigger, and the author of many rigging books/videos has put out a great video on installing Sta-Loks. I highly recommend getting one/watching it if you are considering doing these yourself. There are now several makes/types of swageless terminals on the market. Here are several that I know of: 1) Sta-Lok: Uses a wedge and former-cup in assembly--care must be taken that the individual wires (unlayed) are spread evenly around the cone, and that none of them slip into the slot in the cone during assembly. Around for a long time, and regarded as one of the best. Different wedges are available for standard 1x19 wire, Dyform 1x19 (Dyform wire is 'square' in section while standard is round), and 7x19. 2) Norseman: Similar to Sta-Lok, the Norseman fitting has also been around for quite a while. There was, I believe, a problem early in production with a bad batch of metal, but I haven't heard of any problems since. If I recall correctly, the Norseman only uses the cone (wedge) and no former. It too is available for all three types of wire. 3) Haynes Hi-Mod: Again, similar to the Sta-Lok, but incorporates a wedge/cone with individual notches for each strand of wire. This looks as if it would be much easier to assemble, as the most difficult step is keeping the wires evenly spaced and out of the 'crack' during assembly. I haven't researched these thoroughly, but intend to soon. 4) Sun-Cor: I haven't seen these yet, but apparently they are much easier to use as the wire is left intact (you don't have to unlay) with a cone/wedge slid over. The resulting 'squeeze' is more akin to that of a swaged fitting than those above. It would be interesting to see more data on these, as the installation is incredibly simple. My suspicion is that they might not be quite as strong. If/when I learn more, I will post findings. Scott, M15 #478 'bebe'

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Furling Headsails for M15 and M17
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 30 Nov '03

30 Nov '03

Hi Group, Several had asked me to post my findings regarding furling (and reefable) headsails for the M15. I met with my favorite local sailmaker, Bob Hogin of Hogin Sails in Alameda, CA to discuss a one-size-fits-all solution for my M15. As mentioned previously, Bob had told me of a tri-radial cut roller furling headsail that he had built that kept good, flat shape when rolled to 30%-40%. While not previously a fan of roller furling, I have considered the possibility of installing one for more extended or rough water travels while single handing. I have a great little storm jib (also made by Bob Hogin) that, when coupled with a double-reefed main, performs beautifully in high wind scenarios. Going forward on the M15 in these conditions is less than ideal when short handed. Also, I have learned from sailing on other boats with furling that I am actually more likely to sail than motor when it is a simple matter of unrolling the jib (especially in the Pacific Northwest where winds are often light-to-nonexistant). To recap, many of the small boat furlers out there allow for furling, but not roller reefing of the headsail. The small Schaeffer Snap-Furl, and perhaps some models from CDI do have both capabilities. Anyway, Bob gave me quotes for two possible variants on his design. Given the diminutive size of both sails, he said that he could get nearly the performance from a standard cut as a tri-radail design. The standard cut utilizes 6.5 ounce standard dacron, and the tri-radial cut uses a Bainbridge 5 ounce laminated cloth. Bob also felt that this could be done with a sail larger than 135%, but my criteria was more weighted towards performance when reefed. I had him give me prices for both the M15 and M17 as follows: M15: 135% Custom with 6.5 ounce standard dacron cloth and luff Shape Tape: $270.00 135% Custom Tri-Radial with 5.0 ounce Bainbridge cloth and luff Shape Tape: $322.00 Options: U.V. Cover (for UV protection when rolled): $129.00 tell tale window: $18.00 M17: 135% Custom with 6.5 ounce standard dacron cloth and luff Shape Tape: $513.00 135% Custom Tri-Radial with 5.0 ounce Bainbridge cloth and luff Shape Tape: $640.00 Options: U.V. Cover (for UV protection when rolled): $191.00 tell tale window: $18.00 Bob will extend a discount for multiple orders, so if there are any interested parties, it would be worth coordinating. I would encourage anyone interested to speak with Bob directly (510.523.4388). You would need to discuss measurements, sheeting angles, options, etc. I told Bob that I could take my M15 in for measurements (schedule permitting), but individual boats vary and you should confirm your own measurements. Also, there would likely be differences in luff depending on type of furler. There is an M17 at Alameda Marina that might be available for reference measurements. I have several sails from Bob, and find him to be a delight to work with and his work excellent. I think there are several on the list who have used him as well. This is their slow time of year, so anyone looking for M-sails might want to give him a call. Scott, M15 #478 'bebe'

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Re: M_Boats: San Juan trip
by Larry Yake 30 Nov '03

30 Nov '03

Bones, Hope you can make it! I'll add you to the San Juan e-mail list, so you'll get all the updates. I don't know of anyone looking for crew yet, but there's still lots of time. Larry On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:06:53 GMT bownez(a)juno.com writes: > > Larry, > > Sounds like a blast! I'd love to be there. > Anyone need crew? > > Bones > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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