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Re: commodity, community and music
by Ellery Eskelin 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

"D Dvb" <d_dvb(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > To illustrate one of Skip's points, I've seen Ellery Eskelin play two > performances, one with the Black and Parkins (?) trio and an improvised set > with Tom Rainey and Paul Plimley. I really enjoyed the Rainey/Plimley set > but was a little disappointed with the accordion trio set. So I'm on the > fence. Couple that with the fact that most Eskelin CDs I find in stores are > new and imports and it means that I just don't listen to him. If someone > were to burn me a whole album (gasp!) and I really liked it, I may or may > not buy that burned album but I'll probably buy 4 or 5 other Eskelin albums > eventually. It really is true. Hey there, OK, I'll make it easy for you... Look's like you're writing from Vancouver, right? We're playing in Vancouver on January 11th. Check the web site (address below in my sig file) for details. Come to the concert. If you like it any better than the last time let me know and I'll make you a yummy deal on a CD or two, right there on the spot. No one walks away from an Eskelin concert unsatisfied, goddammit!! But if you don't like us any better than the last time then maybe you're not gonna dig the CDs anyway... > I guess what I'm trying to say is that (especially for the music discussed > on this list) at some point, there seems to be two viewpoints: music as > art/communication/spiritual yogurt or music as commodity. No, just that in a perfect political/cultural system like ours (down here in the States, that is) there is a significant monetary investment required on the part of any musician who wants to devote enough time in their life to make it more than a hobby (not that there's a thing in the world wrong with hobbies). If I could live a peaceful, enchanted existence without the need to make or spend money then I could simply do all the music I want and give it away for free. And that would be wonderful. But unfortunately I have to fight every step of the way just to get the satisfaction of arriving at that "art/communication/spiritual" place in some semblance of sanity. Now, I'm not complaining as I like to work hard but I just get a little uneasy when I see the growing trend in the public at large that says to me not only that "all artists are scum" (unless you get popular, in which case you're scum for selling out, or at least you're some form of social deviant because...well, just because...) but "you owe us free music too". Sure, that's overly dramatic, but there are days... And yes, I realize that most of ya'll on this list understand that and yes, are a small sub set of the larger music world/biz and yes, many of you have probably been turned on to new music via CDR burns and yes, I know ya'll buy a lot of CDs. But I still think it's important to establish a few points along the way. And with that I hope to exit this conversation, I think I've said too much...my medication is wearing off and I have work to do...just kidding...(about the medication part)... Love, Ellery Eskelin ================================= ELLeRY ESKELiN/MiCHELLE VAn NaTTA RaMiChElLeRy/PrImE SoUrCe PrOdUcTiOnS http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/ =================================

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Pain Killer - Live
by Theo Klaase 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Reactions on the latest edition of Pain Killer??? Where's the controversal artwork??? Execution Ground, still, maybe the best Pain Killer album... The Live album is okay, but something I'll listen too maybe once a year... I'd rather hear a copy of the Lombardo/Frith/Zorn/Laswell show I saw a year or so ago... -Theo Miles Davis In a Silent Way __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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Re: becking lips
by Perfect Sound Forever 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Message: 10 From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner(a)butler.edu> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:17:51 -0500 "What in particular doesn't thrill you about his most recent? It's a departure for sure, but I think it shows his breadth as an artist. He taps into some real emotion and puts it out there; this is something that I almost always respect in a musician. I initially didn't like it, but now it stands up to or surpasses his previous work. My two cents..." Actually, I agree with most of what you said. It's a departure, it does show his breath and he taps into some real emotions too. That doesn't necessarily make it a compelling record. Nick Drake did similar type of music back when and he did it better I think, that's all. For really good depressing music, nothing beats Ray Charles' early stuff on ABC records. Best, Jason -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine with warped perspectives perfect-sound(a)furious.com http://www.perfectsoundforever.com

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joan jett's letter to rolling stone
by skip Heller 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

This has been floating around for the last few days and I can't help thinking it's a great letter. sh An open letter to Rolling Stone by Joan Jett I tried to find some cleverly worded way to express my disgust with your "Women in Rock" issue, but what I have to say is really quite simple: You guys are completely retarded. By Rolling Stone standards, Rock is no longer a style of music but a trendy costume to be whipped up by expensive stylists and slapped onto the latest pop tart barbie doll. Give a girl some tight pants and a spiky bracelet and POOF! She ROCKS! > Your poor choice of cover girls and featured artists brings to mind the Sports Illustrated swimsuit editions. There is nothing necessarily wrong with the breast-baring models inside...but we all understand that they have NOTHING TO DO WITH SPORTS--Which just might be offensive to women who are interested in sports or who might even be (gasp) real athletes. Yes, Britney has a talented stylist and yes, somebody gave Shakira a Guns & Roses t-shirt to wear...but they ARE NOT NOW NOR WILL THEY EVER BE ROCK. > Maybe it's naive of me to expect any glimmer of rock'n'roll credibility OR respect for women from a magazine whose cover shot is regularly a naked underweight actress. The thing is, I AM a woman musician with a rock band, and as we all are, I am STARVED for any little crumb of recognition that real women rockers might be thrown. So like a sucker I find myself short another five bucks...and pissed enough to write my first letter to an editor. Avril Lavigne gets some studded accessories from Hot Topic so now she's "upholding the brazen tradition of teenage outrage"???!! Are you SERIOUS? And could someone please explain to me why people keep insisting on referring to PINK as rock? Wasn't she doing the white girl hip hop thing a minute ago? Yeah, she performed on the Aerosmith tribute show --big deal..she was on the Janet Jackson tribute show just before that--Whatever's trendy. WHO CARES. She's a Spice Girl reject...but I digress. > Jewel and Mandy friggin' Moore have full page features as Rock Icons...Meanwhile Joan Jett gets one line. ONE LINE. Joan Jett & the Blackhearts, who have never stopped touring, recently did 10 days in the Middle East playing for the troops stationed in Afghanistan. In AFGHANISTAN, Joan would come onstage wearing a birkha, which she ripped off and stomped on before blazing through the purest and nastiest rock show ANYWHERE. But even in the RS WOMEN IN ROCK issue, a story like that gets ONE SENTENCE on the bottom of the last page of Random Notes. > Britney's Rock credentials? Well, she butchers the song "I Love Rock'n'Roll" on her latest record, and when asked about it the genius replies "Well, I've always loved Pat Benatar." And SHE is your Rock issue cover girl?? You should be REALLY embarrassed. > Sleater Kinney was the only rock group listed on the cover...and they got only half a page. Ashanti, the r&b back up singer who can't seem to do anything without "featuring Jah Rule," has two pages. > What about the Donnas? The Yeah Yeah Yeahs? The Distillers? A mag like RS has the power to shine important light on groups like these-- instead they are afterthoughts, and that valuable spotlight is wasted on the same overexposed pop princesses WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ROCK. > In your own letter from the editor you have the hypocritical balls to say "rock radio won't touch female artists, while the pop factory keeps churning out soundalike clones, and ambitious musicians with something to say find themselves left out in the cold." > The pages that follow those words are a blatant display that Rolling Stone magazine is happily working for the factory now too. > If the issue had been called "Women in Music"...or maybe "Some Cute Girls with Top 10 Records out Right Now"..I would have no beef with it. Corny as it may sound, ROCK is something which is still meaningful and even sacred to some of us. Use the word "rock" in bold letters next to a picture of Britney Fucking Spears, and you're turning your whole publication into a joke...and an offensive joke at that. > Joan Jett

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practical burning scenarios
by Mark Wink 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

In the 80's I bought all the Byrds albums on vinyl, in the early 90's I bought 'em on CDs adn then a couple of years ago they get reissued in a slightly better format so I burned copies from a friend. Riddled by guilt I am not. And ironically I even bought a couple of the remastered versions in a sale. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: Zorn and "An Open Letter of American Jews to Our Government"?
by Arthur Gadney 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Hi, >I am curious what Zorn's and/or the radical jewish culture people's >position would be towards the Israel-Palestine conflict and the position of >the American government towards this. What triggered my interest is an >article I read on this "An Open Letter from American Jews to Our >Government" (www.peacemideast.org) Is anything known about Zorn's position >on the propositions made there? I think this is an interesting topic. But, I agree with Joseph in that I doubt very many opinions would be shared by such a broad community as the Tzadik people. However, many of them have in fact spoken out quite openly about this topic, especially Elliot Sharp (check his diary on his webpage). Also, ealier this year Sharp, Marc Ribot, Anthony Coleman, Frank London and many others organised a benifit concert under the banner of "Israel Out Of The Occupied Territories" and so on. However, the behavior of Zorn himself is, as usual, in my opinion peculiar. In the 80s and early 90s he was the bad boy of punkjazz and hardcore with censored CD covers and so on, and suddenly he turns to "Radical Jewish Culture" with the energy of a train, with very little explanation to his audience what is going on. So far, the only hint I'm aware of is the comment on all the Masada albums abotu "cultural Zionism". But what is "Cultural Zionism", what's Zorn's point? It's funny that Zorn can seem so passionate about this topic, but on the other hand not have the slightest interest in wether other people understand what it's all about. I can't think of many other artists who seems to care so little about how they are percieved by their audience. Of course, I'm not suggesting that all musicians should make a manifesto explaining their political views. But perhaps Zorn simply loves the endless speculation and misunderstandings? I mean, it would not take much of an effort for him to stop articles like the following (which have been discussed here before): "John Zorn and Zionism" http://www.furious.com/perfect/zornzion.html Or maybe it just boils down to Fred Frith' famous comment to Zorn: "You're an apolitical dumbshit" ;-) Cheers. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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RE: mid & far east recomendations?
by Emmanouil Papagiannakis 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

I dont know much about indian or japanese music, but the last few years I have been getting into arabic music. I would recommend for starters the compilations DESERT BLUES and SUFI SOUL on Netwerk, both available for 20 euros from www.zweitausendeins.de They are both double CDs with nice booklets, and provide a pretty general picture of arabic music. Both are trully excelent. More that I remember right now is Kani Karaca (sufi master from turkey) Hassan Hakmoun (morrocan star) and there my goldfish-memory fails. enjoy manolis

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Re: But is it stealing?
by Fritz Feger 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

>But this analogy overlooks the crucial difference between material objects >and information: information can be copied and shared almost effortlessly, >while material objects can't be. Basing your thinking on this analogy is >tantamount to ignoring that difference. >Not me, but rather the passage I quoted for your "entertainment. Sorry, I missed that since I did not follow the link... but it certainly did entertain me :-) >"Intellectual property" rather is a term designed to protect the efforts >of the producer who decides to devote them not to produce material objects >but to create immaterial innovations. This is why patent laws exist; >without them you wouldn't get most of the economy working, and many great >inventions would have never seen the sunlight, as I mentioned some mails ago. >The passage I quoted took pains to distinguish copyright law and patent law. I should have said something about this, yes. Those you quote are (see my last mail) caught up into a false disanalogy between material and intellectual property, and their trial to distinguish intellectual property and copyright suffers from this. I shall try to define copyright: To state that the copyright for the music on a CD you buy remains mine is to specify the utilisation contract (dunno the correct legal term in English...) between you and me. It means to restrict the rights on my intellectual property which you purchase in buying my CD to putting this CD into any CD player you like and play it as often and as loud as you want and to whomever you want, but not to multiply the medium and thereby to further broaden the circle of people using my intellectual property. The contract says that if a second copy is required, it has to be purchased again from me or my agent, e.g. my record label. The same with software and single vs. multiple user licenses. And there are further restrictions which are part of the deal and thus subject to copyright. If you like to broadcast a track of my CD, this also requires you to purchase a separate license because, again, this broadens the circle of possible users of my property. >And, as I also mentioned earlier, everyone who commits himself to cite >other people's ideas rather than to pretend they're his thereby accepts >the concept of intellectual property. >Well, they accept the concept of both copyright law and the more banal >point of noting sources for the sake of a reader's research and also to >avoid being accused of plagiarism. And I define plagiarism: theft of intellectual property in the special case that I claim or imply that someone else's intellectual property is mine. To be distinguished from copyright violation where I do not make such a claim but distribute someone's intellectual property further than my contract with the owner allows for. To add my 5 cent to the question if copyright violation is theft: it is not taking away property from the legal owner, and thus not exactly theft, but it is still a violation of property rights, which implies that any moral differences between theft (of material or intellectual property) and copyright violation are hard to argue for. Greetings; Fritz ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.de Fon: 0177 - 6424 020 Fax: 0721 - 151 435 058 Rüttenscheider Str. 253 Eulenstraße 56 45131 Essen 22765 Hamburg 0201 - 455 4555 040 - 3980 4766 ##############################################

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e-mail addresses in Zorn's list archive
by Peter Gannushkin 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

Hello All, Several days ago I sent this message to Mr. Rizzi, but never received an answer. I think it is very important issue, so I decided to post it here too: I realized that subscribers' e-mails are openly shown on the list's archive pages. These pages are indexed by search engines, which is good, but it also brings lots of spam messages to the subscribers. It would be really good if the administrator of the list will remove the e-mails from these pages. In addition to that I would say that the possibility to see all e-mail addresses for people who are registered is a bad thing too, as spamers can easily register and then get over 600 addresses for their needs. NP: Shepik, Brad "The Well" (CD) -- Best regards, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/

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mid & far east recomendations?
by Maciej Nowak 05 Dec '02

05 Dec '02

hello from poland! can you give me any recomendations (artists, recordings, record labels) about ethnic music of india, arabia and japan? thanks and greetings. maciej

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