December 2010 - Utah-Astronomy - mailman.xmission.com

Protostar problems
by Chuck Hards 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Back in August I ordered a secondary holder and spider from Bryan Greer at Protostar. Bryan and I have spoken on the phone occassionally over the years and know each other by reputation. The order was initially pegged at "3 week delivery", and in late September I called and he assured me that it would be shipping soon. Since then, no-one at Protostar answers the phone or responds to email and my spider and secondary holder have not shown-up. We are now at 3 months since the order was placed. Has anyone heard of problems at Protostar or perhaps personal problems on the part of Greer?

11 33

request for information re: Mormon astronomy
by garrard55＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly at garrard55(a)xmission.com. Thanks. Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to > utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: evolution (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) > 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) > (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 > From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution > Message-ID: > <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >> There is much about evolution that is not understood, that Darwin did not > understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it. It is > a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to > illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the human > race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me > mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the parent, > they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated it. > Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) then > we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have become > more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million > years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it is > capable of. > > The beauty of science is that theories are always open to modification. > > It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but scientific > thought often has in the past. > > > Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. Understanding >> evolution is vital to understanding biology >> >> Sincerely, >> Gary Vardon >> The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to your >> greater success. GO to PublishAmerica.com >> Consulting For Profit is also available. Learn how to make money as a >> consultant. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 > From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) > Message-ID: > <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >> It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the universe > is older than we believe. > Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from > older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the universe > is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material would > have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their > theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it as > it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the > notion we live in closed universe. > > There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to have > evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell > organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can > change in hours. > The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up > from virtually nothing. > How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. It > always get to question: How did this all begin? > > > > > Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not >> evolution) >> and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a closed >> system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the >> second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you start >> looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic proteins >> cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. >> As >> Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single >> cell >> forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going through a >> junkyard and creating a 747". >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim >> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM >> To: 'Utah Astronomy' >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) >> >> I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious >> person >> I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts >> regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and >> humankind's >> role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book >> of >> Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural >> selection/evolution >> - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than >> the >> stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the >> sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical. >> >> I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and >> whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I >> read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be >> jolly? >> >> Kim >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net(a)mailman.xmission.com >> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On >> Behalf Of erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM >> To: Utah Astronomy >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) >> >>> Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations >> may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I >> saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is >> advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, >> IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the >> answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. >> Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just >> mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years >> and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date. >> >> Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed >> research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. >> >> >> Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in >> SLC? >>> ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at >>> least >>> we don't get the inversions.) >>> >>> The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't >>> mind, >>> but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts >>> that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While >>> musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures >>> that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and >>> crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. >>> There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. >>> The >>> interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the >>> world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any >>> connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography >>> too >>> great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science >>> is >>> that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the >>> environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My >>> thought >>> is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on >>> extraordinary) >>> that similar or identical species without contact with one another would >>> experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical >>> outcomes, >>> i.e. new species with no eyes. >>> >>> I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming >>> evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this >>> present some significant problems for evolutionary theory? >>> >>> I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts >>> about >>> this. >>> >>> Kim >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe >>> Bauman >>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM >>> To: Utah Astronomy >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>> Payload) >>> >>> Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe >>> --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60(a)xmission.com >>> <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> From: stormcrow60(a)xmission.com <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>>> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) >>>> To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM >>>> Joe, >>>> ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty >>>> years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of >>>> establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no >>>> other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space >>>> exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we >>>> abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could >>>> accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of >>>> endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the >>>> space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The >>>> fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. >>>> Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into >>>> what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world >>>> of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, >>>> it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial >>>> complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. >>>> Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export >>>> anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits >>>> were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we >>>> find that other nations have attained space programs as >>>> effective as ours. These are governments... not private >>>> enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private >>>> enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off >>>> the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will >>>> reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and >>>> watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the >>>> American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, >>>> once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the >>>> bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company >>>> landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... >>>> something the federal government did forty one years ago. >>>> So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal >>>> government to head the space program, and expand both manned >>>> space flight and robotic space exploration. >>>> ???I believe that within the next ten years, >>>> the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, >>>> China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... >>>> and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is >>>> meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not >>>> either. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > > End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 43 > ********************************************** >

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 45
by garrard55＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

I may be publishing it on the web. Why? Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to > utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: request for information re: Mormon astronomy (Kim) > 2. request for information re: Mormon astronomy (Wayne Sumner) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:01:16 -0700 > From: "Kim" <kimharch(a)cut.net> > To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon > astronomy > Message-ID: <E1PSCiQ-00044E-85(a)mx03.mta.xmission.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Garrard, For what purpose would this information be used, i.e. is this > strictly for scholarly purposes and/or where would this be published? > > Kim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of > garrard55(a)xmission.com > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 10:56 AM > To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon astronomy > > I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would > like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and > non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the > Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly > at garrard55(a)xmission.com. Thanks. > > > > Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > >> Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to >> utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: evolution (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) >> (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 >> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution >> Message-ID: >> <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> There is much about evolution that is not understood, that Darwin did not >> understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it. It is >> a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to >> illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the human >> race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me >> mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the parent, >> they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated it. >> Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) then >> we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have become >> more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million >> years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it is >> capable of. >> >> The beauty of science is that theories are always open to modification. >> >> It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but scientific >> thought often has in the past. >> >> >> Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. > Understanding >>> evolution is vital to understanding biology >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Gary Vardon >>> The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to your >>> greater success. GO to PublishAmerica.com >>> Consulting For Profit is also available. Learn how to make money as a >>> consultant. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 >> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> Payload) >> Message-ID: >> <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the universe >> is older than we believe. >> Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from >> older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the universe >> is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material would >> have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their >> theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it as >> it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the >> notion we live in closed universe. >> >> There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to have >> evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell >> organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can >> change in hours. >> The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up >> from virtually nothing. >> How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. It >> always get to question: How did this all begin? >> >> >> >> >> Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not >>> evolution) >>> and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a closed >>> system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the >>> second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you start >>> looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic proteins >>> cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. >>> As >>> Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single >>> cell >>> forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going through > a >>> junkyard and creating a 747". >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim >>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM >>> To: 'Utah Astronomy' >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) >>> >>> I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious >>> person >>> I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts >>> regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and >>> humankind's >>> role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book >>> of >>> Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural >>> selection/evolution >>> - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than >>> the >>> stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the >>> sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than > allegorical. >>> >>> I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration > and >>> whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I >>> read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be >>> jolly? >>> >>> Kim >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On >>> Behalf Of erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM >>> To: Utah Astronomy >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) >>> >>>> Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random > mutations >>> may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I >>> saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is >>> advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, >>> IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the >>> answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. >>> Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just >>> mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years >>> and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date. >>> >>> Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed >>> research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. >>> >>> >>> Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in >>> SLC? >>>> ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at >>>> least >>>> we don't get the inversions.) >>>> >>>> The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't >>>> mind, >>>> but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts >>>> that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While >>>> musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures >>>> that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and >>>> crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. >>>> There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. >>>> The >>>> interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the >>>> world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any >>>> connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography >>>> too >>>> great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science >>>> is >>>> that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the >>>> environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My >>>> thought >>>> is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on >>>> extraordinary) >>>> that similar or identical species without contact with one another would >>>> experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical >>>> outcomes, >>>> i.e. new species with no eyes. >>>> >>>> I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming >>>> evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this >>>> present some significant problems for evolutionary theory? >>>> >>>> I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts >>>> about >>>> this. >>>> >>>> Kim >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe >>>> Bauman >>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM >>>> To: Utah Astronomy >>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>>> Payload) >>>> >>>> Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe >>>> --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60(a)xmission.com >>>> <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: stormcrow60(a)xmission.com <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>>>> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) >>>>> To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM >>>>> Joe, >>>>> ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty >>>>> years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of >>>>> establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no >>>>> other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space >>>>> exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we >>>>> abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could >>>>> accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of >>>>> endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the >>>>> space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The >>>>> fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. >>>>> Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into >>>>> what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world >>>>> of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, >>>>> it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial >>>>> complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. >>>>> Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export >>>>> anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits >>>>> were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we >>>>> find that other nations have attained space programs as >>>>> effective as ours. These are governments... not private >>>>> enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private >>>>> enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off >>>>> the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will >>>>> reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and >>>>> watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the >>>>> American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, >>>>> once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the >>>>> bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company >>>>> landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... >>>>> something the federal government did forty one years ago. >>>>> So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal >>>>> government to head the space program, and expand both manned >>>>> space flight and robotic space exploration. >>>>> ???I believe that within the next ten years, >>>>> the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, >>>>> China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... >>>>> and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is >>>>> meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not >>>>> either. >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >> End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 43 >> ********************************************** >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3313 - Release Date: 12/13/10 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:35:27 -0700 > From: "Wayne Sumner" <wsumner(a)dsdmail.net> > To: <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon > astronomy > Message-ID: <4D0604FF020000F600067A68(a)GW-IA2.dsdmail.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > As a lifelong Mormon and amateur astronomer, I've heard "Mormon" > opinions ranging from kooky to conventional. To characterize anyone's > astronomical perceptions as "Mormon" or "Catholic" or "Muslim" seems > like stereotyping to me. While I have several books on "Mormon" > astronomy, they are strictly their authors' opinions. Except for the > idea that the heavens are God's creations and that this was known > anciently, I'm not aware of any official Mormon astronomy positions. > Thanks, > > Wayne A. Sumner > Astronomy/Engineering Teacher > Boy's Tennis Coach > Northridge High School > Davis School District > (801) 402-8610 > >>>> <garrard55(a)xmission.com> 12/13/2010 10:56 AM >>> > I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would > like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and > non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the > > Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly > > at garrard55(a)xmission.com. Thanks. > > > > Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > >> Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to >> utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: evolution (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) >> (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 >> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution >> Message-ID: >> <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> There is much about evolution that is not understood, that Darwin > did not >> understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it. > It is >> a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to >> illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the > human >> race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me >> mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the > parent, >> they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated > it. >> Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) > then >> we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have > become >> more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million >> years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it > is >> capable of. >> >> The beauty of science is that theories are always open to > modification. >> >> It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but > scientific >> thought often has in the past. >> >> >> Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. > Understanding >>> evolution is vital to understanding biology >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Gary Vardon >>> The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to > your >>> greater success. GO to PublishAmerica.com >>> Consulting For Profit is also available. Learn how to make money as > a >>> consultant. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 >> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> Payload) >> Message-ID: >> <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the > universe >> is older than we believe. >> Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come > from >> older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the > universe >> is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material > would >> have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify > their >> theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe > it as >> it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on > the >> notion we live in closed universe. >> >> There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to > have >> evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single > cell >> organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can >> change in hours. >> The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang > up >> from virtually nothing. >> How the universe began or how life began may forever remain > unanswered. It >> always get to question: How did this all begin? >> >> >> >> >> Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not >>> evolution) >>> and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a > closed >>> system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying > the >>> second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you > start >>> looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic > proteins >>> cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the > universe. >>> As >>> Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a > single >>> cell >>> forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going > through a >>> junkyard and creating a 747". >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of > Kim >>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM >>> To: 'Utah Astronomy' >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) >>> >>> I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a > religious >>> person >>> I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious > texts >>> regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and >>> humankind's >>> role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the > Book >>> of >>> Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural >>> selection/evolution >>> - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me > than >>> the >>> stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked > the >>> sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than > allegorical. >>> >>> I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space > exploration and >>> whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. > Comments I >>> read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to > be >>> jolly? >>> >>> Kim >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> > [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] > On >>> Behalf Of erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM >>> To: Utah Astronomy >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) >>> >>>> Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random > mutations >>> may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that > score. I >>> saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is >>> advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more > gradually, >>> IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all > the >>> answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its > own. >>> Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just >>> mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of > years >>> and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date. >>> >>> Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much > needed >>> research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. >>> >>> >>> Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather > in >>> SLC? >>>> ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but > at >>>> least >>>> we don't get the inversions.) >>>> >>>> The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all > don't >>>> mind, >>>> but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have > thoughts >>>> that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: > While >>>> musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about > creatures >>>> that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders > and >>>> crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no > eyes. >>>> There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no > eyes. >>>> The >>>> interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout > the >>>> world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never > had any >>>> connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the > geography >>>> too >>>> great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary > science >>>> is >>>> that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to > the >>>> environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My >>>> thought >>>> is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on >>>> extraordinary) >>>> that similar or identical species without contact with one another > would >>>> experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical >>>> outcomes, >>>> i.e. new species with no eyes. >>>> >>>> I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the > overwhelming >>>> evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't > this >>>> present some significant problems for evolutionary theory? >>>> >>>> I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your > thoughts >>>> about >>>> this. >>>> >>>> Kim >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of > Joe >>>> Bauman >>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM >>>> To: Utah Astronomy >>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>>> Payload) >>>> >>>> Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe >>>> --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60(a)xmission.com >>>> <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: stormcrow60(a)xmission.com <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>>>> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) >>>>> To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM >>>>> Joe, >>>>> ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty >>>>> years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of >>>>> establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no >>>>> other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space >>>>> exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we >>>>> abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could >>>>> accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of >>>>> endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the >>>>> space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The >>>>> fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. >>>>> Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into >>>>> what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world >>>>> of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, >>>>> it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial >>>>> complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. >>>>> Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export >>>>> anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits >>>>> were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we >>>>> find that other nations have attained space programs as >>>>> effective as ours. These are governments... not private >>>>> enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private >>>>> enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off >>>>> the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will >>>>> reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and >>>>> watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the >>>>> American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, >>>>> once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the >>>>> bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company >>>>> landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... >>>>> something the federal government did forty one years ago. >>>>> So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal >>>>> government to head the space program, and expand both manned >>>>> space flight and robotic space exploration. >>>>> ???I believe that within the next ten years, >>>>> the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, >>>>> China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... >>>>> and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is >>>>> meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not >>>>> either. >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: > 12/10/10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: > 12/10/10 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >> End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 43 >> ********************************************** >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > > End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 45 > ********************************************** >

1 0

Beating a Dead Eyeles Cave Dweller
by John R. Peterson 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Hopefully avoiding my subject title, I think Joe came closest a few postings back. Still, he didn't recognize the key word here: atrophy. It's much easier for a creature to completely lose physical features that are no longer used than to randomly acquire useful features (that add to positive evolution, in other words a better ability to survive and propagate). A great example is the palmyrus longus (forgive the spelling), a tendon that 90 percent of us no longer use and that the other 10 percent don't even have. It runs from the forearm into the palm, and our nearest relative, the horse, uses it to essentially stand on tip-toes in order to better graze. It's probably related to the wisdom teeth (once used for rumination) and the appendix (probably once a second stomach). All three of these things are no longer needed since most of us humans are no longer grazing animals. So, it's EASY to lose parts we don't need, at least compared to acquiring physical aspects that would make us more successful. A related side note: I know of this tendon because one of mine was transplanted in place of a damaged tendon to my right index finger after a lab accident 30 years ago. Lucky I wasn't one of the more-evolved ten percent! John R.Peterson

2 1

Monty Python fans: SpaceX “Secret” Payload
by Patrick Wiggins 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

http://www.universetoday.com/81586/spacex-reveals-dragon’s-secret-payload patrick

5 6

Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
by stormcrow60＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either. Jon

9 14

evolution
by Gary Vardon 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. Understanding evolution is vital to understanding biology Sincerely, Gary Vardon The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to your greater success. GO to PublishAmerica.com Consulting For Profit is also available. Learn how to make money as a consultant.

2 1

For Joe Bauman
by Dave Gary 11 Dec '10

11 Dec '10

Joe, I know you have a Meade LX200 telescope. Would you describe your imaging set-up. I’m outfitting my classic LX200 10” scope and could use some advice on balancing the whole set-up. I’ve purchased an Orion 80mm short-tube refractor as my guide scope. I have an Orion Starshoot Pro color camera for the primary scope and an Orion Starshoot Planetary Imager and Autoguider for the guide scope. I have a Milburn wedge. I have an AC generator for power in the field. We talked about this a while back. I’m sure I’ll need some counterbalance weights. What type of counterbalance set-up do you have? Also, what software do you use for imaging analysis? I can run either Windoze or Mac. However, I prefer Mac. Is there anything I’m missing? Do you have any preference for books of reference concerning imaging techniques? Thanks, Dave

1 0

Lunar Eclipse 12-20 at U South Physics Bldg
by Canopus56 11 Dec '10

11 Dec '10

Paul Ricketts, administrator of the U South Physics Observatory, asked me to forward the following invitation to SLAS members - initially made to UofU Astro Club members, with respect to the 12/20 eclipse. Hauling scopes up to the roof is not practical and U students would have first priority, but a small tripod with a DSLR would work. They several have 3 prong power plugs stations on the roof, so bring your own cord and the top floor of the building is a heated refugee from the cold. Check the bottom of the observatory page at http://web.utah.edu/astro/ to see if the observatory is open on the evening of the 20th. Regards, Kurt cc: Paul ========================== Hi all! So you know, the observatory will be open for the total lunar eclipse beginning the 20th at 10:30 pm. Come early to view our scopes and if you have one, bring it along! A couple scopes will have camera mounts available to track the moon during the eclipse for slightly longer and sharper photos for those interested. We’ll be sharing so don’t get territorial. The eclipse ends about 4am so hopefully, if the weather holds out, we’ll get to see the whole thing. Good luck and good weather! Thanks, Paul Ricketts

1 0

The SEB is pretty obvious RIGHT NOW
by Debbie 09 Dec '10

09 Dec '10

I got a good view of Jupiter Tuesday night. The SEB was very clear at 128X. We didn't stay up for Io's shadow because the seeing was going south. Also, got good splits on Theta Aurigae, Rigel, Castor, Gamma Delphini, Delta and Iota Orionis, and of course the Trapezium in the Orion Nebula. It took me a little longer to find things since I didn't have a red-dot finder yet. I can't wait for a night of good seeing. Hopefully by the weekend I can take another look. Debbie

2 4