December 2010 - Utah-Astronomy - mailman.xmission.com

Killer Confesses to Murdering Pluto
by Jay Eads 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Good article on NPR on how astronomer Mike Brown explains why he didn't start off to murder Pluto. Has a sound bite, and an excerpt from his new book on the subject. http://www.npr.org/2010/12/12/131932177/killer-confesses-to-pluto-s-murder-… -- Jay Eads

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification
by garrard55＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

While a discussion of these issues on the email forum would be helpful, I would not wish to offend anyone unduly. If you would like, I would be happy to have private exchanges. I am seeking information, not necessarily initiating discussion here. Does that make sense? Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to > utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: privatization was space-x yada yada (Chuck Hards) > 2. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (Joe Bauman) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:31:08 -0700 > From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards(a)gmail.com> > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] privatization was space-x yada yada > Message-ID: > <AANLkTi=7ncCk=Xub1-QJ5bHE_1mMn5a=AqYKogBx9MAz(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 12/13/10, erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net <erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net> wrote: >>>> >> If a parent has blue eyes and the offspring has brown, is that a mutation? >> I apologize for the over simplification. The genetic code is a long way >> form being figured out, it has only been crudely mapped. > > With respect, you are overcomplicating the issue a bit, Erik. > > Blue-eyed offspring from brown-eyed parents still got their DNA > through one parent or the other; traits such as this, whether from > recessive or dominant genes, are still due to the offspring's lineage, > not a random mutation. I think most people accept the larger > definition without picking nits. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:32:10 -0800 (PST) > From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification > Message-ID: <725287.84835.qm(a)web38905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > If anyone is going to carry on this discussion, I would ask that it > be done with great politeness, with nobody trampling on the > spiritual feelings of others. Our forum has been the host of too > many spats in the past. Thanks, Joe > > --- On Mon, 12/13/10, garrard55(a)xmission.com <garrard55(a)xmission.com> wrote: > >> From: garrard55(a)xmission.com <garrard55(a)xmission.com> >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification >> To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:27 PM >> In recent years I have been involved >> in astronomy outreach to public? >> schools along the Wasatch Front. I have grown up in Utah. I >> am aware? >> that, when there are discussions of astronomy, the >> conflicts beween? >> the big bang and creation arise. In our local communities, >> there are? >> also ideas discussed regarding Kolob, whether our galaxy is >> organized? >> into spiritual realms, inhabitants of other bodies in the >> solar? >> system, etc. Some of the commentary comes from fringe >> writers, some? >> from ardent religionists, some from credentialed people >> like John? >> Heinerman and John Pratt. This has given rise to a very >> confusing? >> situation, which I would like to try to describe and >> clarify. >> >> >> >> >> >> Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: >> >> > Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to >> > ??? utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, >> visit >> > ??? http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body >> 'help' to >> > ??? utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > ??? utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is >> more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> >? ? 1. Re: privatization was space-x yada >> yada >> >? ? ???(erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> >? ? 2. Re: request for information re: Mormon >> astronomy >> >? ? ???(erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:59:35 -0700 >> > From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] privatization was >> space-x yada yada >> > Message-ID: >> > ??? <e0658ecd7978ac90cc481c1b9cd3a024.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> > >> >> Parental DNA involves 2 parents, there is genetic >> information from one >> > parent that might not be expressed in the offspring. A >> departure seems >> > rather hard to define and things thought of as a >> departure, in reality >> > may not be. Multiple genes can determine a single >> trait, we have a lot to >> > learn about the interplay of genetic info. Genes can >> also be latent just >> > unexpressed, so a seeming departure might be contained >> in parental DNA. >> > Birth defects are very much contained in parental DNA, >> environmental >> > influence may also come into play. I would argue >> bio-diversity is >> > ingrained in DNA, it strengthens a species. >> > >> > If a parent has blue eyes and the offspring has brown, >> is that a mutation? >> > I apologize for the over simplification. The genetic >> code is a long way >> > form being figured out, it has only been crudely >> mapped. >> > >> > >> > >> >? I believe any variation from parental DNA is by >> definition a >> >> "mutation", whether good or bad. >> >> >> >> On 12/11/10, erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> <erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net> >> >> wrote: >> >>> I would argue not all variation would be >> described as a >> >>> "mutation". >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:12:22 -0700 >> > From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] request for information >> re: Mormon >> > ??? astronomy >> > Message-ID: >> > ??? <9aaf28af9fc4b44c9ce085013f9164cd.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> > >> >> I understand it asserts that the sun does not >> generate its own energy. >> > That the sun receives an influx of energy from its >> parent. Planet Kolob? >> > >> > >> > >> > I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of >> astronomy. I would >> >> like to hear from astronomers and amateur >> astronomers, Mormons and >> >> non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth >> by John Pratt, the >> >> Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free >> to contact me directly >> >> at garrard55(a)xmission.com. >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: >> >> >> >>> Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions >> to >> >>> ??? utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>> >> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide >> Web, visit >> >>> ??? http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or >> body 'help' to >> >>> ??? utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>> >> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >> >>> ??? utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>> >> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line >> so it is more specific >> >>> than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy >> digest..." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Today's Topics: >> >>> >> >>>? ? 1. Re: evolution (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> >>>? ? 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX >> ?Secret? Payload) >> >>>? ? ???(erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> >> >>> Message: 1 >> >>> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 >> >>> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> >>> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution >> >>> Message-ID: >> >>> ??? <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> >>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> >> >>>> There is much about evolution that is not >> understood, that Darwin did >> >>>> not >> >>> understand or explain. Darwin was simply the >> first to suppose it.???It >> >>> is >> >>> a broad subject that is often described in >> much too simple terms to >> >>> illustrate it. The role of mutations seems >> over stressed me, the human >> >>> race is very diverse and I would not call >> people different than me >> >>> mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden >> departure form the parent, >> >>> they do happen, and my experience with >> newborns clearly demonstrated it. >> >>> Often these defects would happen in clusters >> (we could rely on that) >> >>> then >> >>> we would not see that defect again for several >> months. Humans have >> >>> become >> >>> more intelligent and I doubt we would >> recognize humans in 2 million >> >>> years. Hopefully humanity can survive long >> enough to see what good it is >> >>> capable of. >> >>> >> >>> The beauty of science is that theories are >> always open to modification. >> >>> >> >>> It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious >> beliefs, but scientific >> >>> thought often has in the past. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>? Evolution is a profound idea with a lot >> of evidence for it. >> >>> Understanding >> >>>> evolution is vital to understanding >> biology >> >>>> >> >>>> Sincerely, >> >>>>? ? ? ? Gary Vardon >> >>>> The book DO It Right will help you >> understand vital ideas leading to >> >>>> your >> >>>> greater success.? GO to >> PublishAmerica.com >> >>>> Consulting For Profit is also >> available.? Learn how to make money as a >> >>>> consultant. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------ >> >>> >> >>> Message: 2 >> >>> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 >> >>> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> >>> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization >> (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> >>> ??? Payload) >> >>> Message-ID: >> >>> ??? <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >> >>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> >> >>>> It seems there are a number of things that >> indicate perhaps the >> >>>> universe >> >>> is older than we believe. >> >>> Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material >> for them had have come from >> >>> older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as >> old as we suppose the >> >>> universe >> >>> is. We have never found any of the Population >> 3 stars this material >> >>> would >> >>> have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists >> that need to modify their >> >>> theories. For the most part when we observe >> the universe we observe it >> >>> as >> >>> it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, >> cosmologist are too set on the >> >>> notion we live in closed universe. >> >>> >> >>> There are clearly gaps in how life began, but >> once it did it seems to >> >>> have >> >>> evolved gradually. Microbiology has >> demonstrated how quickly single cell >> >>> organisms can change or be altered by an >> outside force. Bacteria can >> >>> change in hours. >> >>> The big bang theory seems to want us except >> that the universe sprang up >> >>> from virtually nothing. >> >>> How the universe began or how life began may >> forever remain unanswered. >> >>> It >> >>> always get to question: How did this all >> begin? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Information theory may be the death knell for >> Neo-Darwinism (not >> >>>> evolution) >> >>>> and the Big Bang.? Its main? >> premise is that the information in a >> >>>> closed >> >>>> system cannot increase - perhaps a more >> sophisticated way of saying the >> >>>> second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is >> always valid.? When you start >> >>>> looking at statistical probabilities even >> the formation of basic >> >>>> proteins >> >>>> cannot have occurred during the currently >> supposed age of the universe. >> >>>> As >> >>>> Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) >> said: "The chances of a single >> >>>> cell >> >>>> forming from blind processes is as >> unlikely as a whirlwind going >> >>>> through a >> >>>> junkyard and creating a 747". >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] >> On Behalf Of Kim >> >>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM >> >>>> To: 'Utah Astronomy' >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] >> Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> >>>> Payload) >> >>>> >> >>>> I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I >> think of myself as a religious >> >>>> person >> >>>> I certainly don't subscribe to much of >> what is written in religious >> >>>> texts >> >>>> regarding the beginnings of the universe, >> our solar system, and >> >>>> humankind's >> >>>> role in it all. (I'm most familiar with >> the Christian Bible and the >> >>>> Book >> >>>> of >> >>>> Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) >> Darwinism/natural >> >>>> selection/evolution >> >>>> - whatever you call it provides answers >> that make more sense to me than >> >>>> the >> >>>> stories "revealed" to farmers and goat >> herders who probably lacked the >> >>>> sophistication to understand the universe >> in terms other than >> >>>> allegorical. >> >>>> >> >>>> I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's >> position on space exploration >> >>>> and >> >>>> whether private enterprise or government >> should take the lead. Comments >> >>>> I >> >>>> read today just seemed particularly >> gloomy. Isn't this the season to be >> >>>> jolly? >> >>>> >> >>>> Kim >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] >> >>>> On >> >>>> Behalf Of erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >> >>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM >> >>>> To: Utah Astronomy >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] >> Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> >>>> Payload) >> >>>> >> >>>>> Well having some background in >> genetics, it is true that random >> >>>>> mutations >> >>>> may become successful adaptations many >> more are failures on that score. >> >>>> I >> >>>> saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare >> birth defect that is >> >>>> advantageous. I think the majority of >> adaptations happen more >> >>>> gradually, >> >>>> IE useless traits gradually disappear. >> Evolution does not have all the >> >>>> answers but at least the theory has >> undergone an evolution of its own. >> >>>> Unlike creationism that simply says humans >> and other life just >> >>>> mysteriously appeared. The truth is life >> evolved over billions of years >> >>>> and humans are the most complex life from >> that has evolved to date. >> >>>> >> >>>> Perhaps we are a downer today but private >> industry fails do much needed >> >>>> research. It seems rather naive to believe >> otherwise. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>? Wow - you guys are real downers >> today! Is it the inversion weather in >> >>>> SLC? >> >>>>> ;-) (It's not much better here in >> Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at >> >>>>> least >> >>>>> we don't get the inversions.) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The following is science related, but >> not astronomy. Hope y'all don't >> >>>>> mind, >> >>>>> but you're the smartest bunch of >> people I know and you may have >> >>>>> thoughts >> >>>>> that would help me understand >> something that has been vexing me: While >> >>>>> musing about evolution the other >> night, I began to think about >> >>>>> creatures >> >>>>> that I've encountered while >> spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and >> >>>>> crickets. These cave critters are not >> just sightless; they have no >> >>>>> eyes. >> >>>>> There are fish, crayfish and other >> troglobites that also have no eyes. >> >>>>> The >> >>>>> interesting thing here is that such >> creatures are found throughout the >> >>>>> world. Keep in mind that these are in >> ecosystems that have never had >> >>>>> any >> >>>>> connection to one another. The >> ecosystem is too small and the >> >>>>> geography >> >>>>> too >> >>>>> great for that to be possible. My >> understanding of evolutionary >> >>>>> science >> >>>>> is >> >>>>> that random mutations eventually lead >> to adaptation specific to the >> >>>>> environment, probably as a result of >> that environment changing. My >> >>>>> thought >> >>>>> is that it seems extraordinarily >> coincidental (emphasis on >> >>>>> extraordinary) >> >>>>> that similar or identical species >> without contact with one another >> >>>>> would >> >>>>> experience the same random mutations >> that would lead to identical >> >>>>> outcomes, >> >>>>> i.e. new species with no eyes. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I am no creationist by any means, and >> I am convinced by the >> >>>>> overwhelming >> >>>>> evidence that Darwin's theories are >> basically correct. BUT, doesn't >> >>>>> this >> >>>>> present some significant problems for >> evolutionary theory? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I would appreciate it if you smart >> people would share your thoughts >> >>>>> about >> >>>>> this. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Kim >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] >> On Behalf Of Joe >> >>>>> Bauman >> >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 >> PM >> >>>>> To: Utah Astronomy >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] >> Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> >>>>> Payload) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Depressingly true about the future, >> Jon. Thanks, Joe >> >>>>> --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60(a)xmission.com >> >>>>> <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> From: stormcrow60(a)xmission.com >> <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >> >>>>>> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] >> Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> >>>>>> Payload) >> >>>>>> To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>>>> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, >> 11:59 AM >> >>>>>> Joe, >> >>>>>> ???I whole heartedly agree with >> you. Forty >> >>>>>> years ago we were on the cusp of >> moving in the direction of >> >>>>>> establishing a moon base. Except >> for the Soviet Union, no >> >>>>>> other nation could dream of having >> the capabilites of space >> >>>>>> exploration we had at that time. >> But for some reason we >> >>>>>> abruptly lost the vision and >> dreams of what we could >> >>>>>> accomplish as a nation. Instead, >> we embraced the concepts of >> >>>>>> endless war and corporate >> profiteering at the expense of the >> >>>>>> space program, American jobs and >> American ingenuity. The >> >>>>>> fall of the Soviet Union only >> accelerated this process. >> >>>>>> Instead of investing the so-called >> "peace dividend" into >> >>>>>> what many Americans thought would >> usher us into a new world >> >>>>>> of prosperity, scientific >> advancement and world stability, >> >>>>>> it unleashed the free >> enterprising, military-industrial >> >>>>>> complex, corporate, finance based >> economy we have today. >> >>>>>> Except for military endeavors, we >> really no longer export >> >>>>>> anything to the world. Corporate >> and Wall Street profits >> >>>>>> were and still are placed well >> above everything else. Now we >> >>>>>> find that other nations have >> attained space programs as >> >>>>>> effective as ours. These are >> governments... not private >> >>>>>> enterprise... that have >> accomplished this. Private >> >>>>>> enterprise will only seek tax >> breaks and seek to feed off >> >>>>>> the teet of the federal government >> (you and me). They will >> >>>>>> reap the profits and we will stand >> on the sidelines and >> >>>>>> watch as they benefit once again >> at the expense of the >> >>>>>> American taxpayer. And if they >> fail to accomplish anything, >> >>>>>> once more, the American tax payer >> will be left holding the >> >>>>>> bill. I simply can not imagine any >> free enterprising company >> >>>>>> landing a man on the moon... even >> ten years from now... >> >>>>>> something the federal government >> did forty one years ago. >> >>>>>> So... that being the case, I would >> prefer the federal >> >>>>>> government to head the space >> program, and expand both manned >> >>>>>> space flight and robotic space >> exploration. >> >>>>>> ???I believe that within the next >> ten years, >> >>>>>> the American space program will be >> surpassed by the ESA, >> >>>>>> China and perhaps even Japan. We >> fiddle while Rome burns... >> >>>>>> and other nations fill the void we >> leave. But perhaps it is >> >>>>>> meant to be. Rome did not last >> forever, and we will not >> >>>>>> either. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Jon >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----- >> >>>>> No virus found in this message. >> >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >>>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: >> 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- >> >>>> No virus found in this message. >> >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: >> 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------ >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>> Visit the Photo Gallery:? http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >>> >> >>> End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue >> 43 >> >>> >> ********************************************** >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> > Visit the Photo Gallery:? http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> > >> > End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 47 >> > ********************************************** >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > > End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 49 > ********************************************** >

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privatization was space-x yada yada
by RON VANDERHULE 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Hold on Kim, your first hunch was correct. To think of all the species you mentioned (and more), factor in the eco-systems spread far and wide, and then assume a theory that utilizes only time, chance, and the extremely rare beneficial mutation to give you a uniform result in all that diversity....well it stretches credibility to the point of transparency. As to the assertion that an eye would be detrimental to those dark cave dwellers because because it is a soft useless glob prone to infection so would be mutated out over time. The same logic applies to surface dwellers. What good is a partially evolved glob (eye) in a mammal, reptile, or insect. It certainly is not a survival factor. The same applies to partially formed wings, or nubs waiting hopeful eons to grow into arms with hands or legs with feet to aid in survival. And as I mentioned last week, try to imagine the quantum leap from asexual to sexual (male and female procreation just to be clear this time). The complexities in that scenario are insurmountable. And then someone mentioned the "overwhelming evidence" for Darwin's theory. Well, the world is still waiting for that. There are reputable scientists jumping off the good ship Beagle all the time. A little imagination is good to have in science but but when it continually becomes your default position you have gone from science to fantasy. Time to get a new theory. Ron

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification
by garrard55＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Joe, Thank you for your exceptional treatment of provocative me. It is very informative. Your curiosity could have also been satisfied with a private email. In all sincerity, thank you for your many columns. You have made many contributions for astronomy in our community. I will continue my researches elsewhere. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:38:25 -0800 (PST) > From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy > Message-ID: <191201.59077.qm(a)web38901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Sorry to get your dander up, Richard, and you're certainly welcome > on the list. I'm no gatekeeper and as anyone who has been here for a > while knows, I am always encouraging all sorts of discussions. But > UtahAstronomy is primarily about astronomy and not a way to mine > information that can be used to ridicule anyone. I have never looked > up anyone else's postings elsewhere, but your question sounded so > provocative that I wondered what was going on. And by the way, what > was going on? Where were you planning to use the material you > collected? Now you've made me curious. Thanks, Joe > > >

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] For Joe Bauman
by Joe Bauman 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Hi Dave, My main scope is a Meade LX200GPS 12". Like you, I have an Orion ShortTube 80 mm as the guide scope; it's mounted on a setup Guy Malmborg manufactured for me. I think you can find something on the Internet to hold the guide scope on the main scope. On the underside I have a Celestron counterweight bar assembly, which I think is no longer made. I use a five-pound weight. The Oceanside Photo and Telescope (OPT) site says they recommend the Losmandy DWS counterweight system, something I know nothing about. If I were you I'd contact OPT, which is where I buy nearly all my equipment, and talk about your gear -- they will give you solid, reliable recommendations. My main camera is an SBIG ST-402 ME, with color filter wheel, the cheapest SBIG makes; I am hoping to buy their new 8300 camera. My guide camera is Meade Deep Sky Imager (I don't remember if it's I or II variety, but either would work.) I have a lot of software. Mostly I use the free PHD Guiding with the guide scope. I control the main camera with MaxIM DL and use this program to process images (sometimes with a little help from PhotoShop Elements). A very important recent addition is the PemPro Software, which is great for better control of periodic error. I use Starry Night Pro 6 mostly to choose targets, but don't control the telescope with it. I learned that properly balancing the entire setup is vital. Best wishes, Joe --- On Sat, 12/11/10, Dave Gary <davegary(a)me.com> wrote: > From: Dave Gary <davegary(a)me.com> > Subject: [Utah-astronomy] For Joe Bauman > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Date: Saturday, December 11, 2010, 12:02 PM > Joe, > > I know you have a Meade LX200 telescope. Would you describe > your imaging set-up. I’m outfitting my classic LX200 10” > scope and could use some advice on balancing the whole > set-up. I’ve purchased an Orion 80mm short-tube refractor > as my guide scope. I have an Orion Starshoot Pro color > camera for the primary scope and an Orion Starshoot > Planetary Imager and Autoguider for the guide scope. I have > a Milburn wedge. I have an AC generator for power in the > field. We talked about this a while back. > > I’m sure I’ll need some counterbalance weights. What > type of counterbalance set-up do you have? Also, what > software do you use for imaging analysis? I can run either > Windoze or Mac. However, I prefer Mac. Is there anything > I’m missing? Do you have any preference for books of > reference concerning imaging techniques? > > Thanks, > > Dave > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >

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Mormon astronomy
by garrard55＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Joe, I would be interested to know if you are screening all of the internet postings of all others on this email list, and how far back that goes. I did make those postings ten years ago, as regarding irrational beliefs I had encountered at that time. I stand by what I said then but that is not the issue here. I must conclude that discussions of the topic I raised are not permitted and that my participation in this list is unwelcome. Thanks for making that clear. Richard Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to > utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (Joe Bauman) > 2. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (Chuck Hards) > 3. Re: For Joe Bauman (Chuck Hards) > 4. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (garrard55(a)xmission.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:03:57 -0800 (PST) > From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification > Message-ID: <959926.29494.qm(a)web38906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Someone using the name Richard Garrard has been posting on an > exMormon website, with the topic "Satan Stories in the Mormon Church." > > Another posting from 2000 is, "Richard Garrard, April 2000 - > Proposition 22 and other LDS church political activities; their > continued Orwellian changes to doctrine and history; my growing > confidence in myself and unwillingness to live someone else's life, > for another's approval. Also, I have found a far more valid identity > as a humanist, which is fundamentally incompatible with the blind > faith, conformity, irrationality, supernaturalism, inhumanity and > tortured apologetics of Mormonism." > > I'm concerned because this forum is about astronomy, not sociology. > Richard, if you are the same poster, can you tell us why you want > people to comment on the Mormon view concerning astronomy? As a > non-Mormon but a respectful friend to many Mormons, I think we > should be careful that this discussion group isn't used as fodder > for someone's agenda. > > Thanks, Joe >

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Size Comparisons of the 14 Asteroids and Comets we've visited
by Jay Eads 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Here is a visual link to the 14 comets and asteroids we've visited: http://www.planetary.org/image/asteroids_comets_sc_0-000-100_2010_2.png Hartley is on there, very small off to the right. I thought this was interesting to see them all lined up like this. The article I got it from says we've only been to 14 asteroids and comets and that kinda of shocked me.

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification
by garrard55＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

M Wilson, Here is one of John Pratt's sites: http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/index.html John Pratt received his PhD from U of Arizona, while Lynn Hilton's PhD is in Education, by way of comparison. I won't comment on the particular theories of these people, but would like to catalog and compare them with each other and with religious and scientific authorities, since they invoke both. Richard Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to > utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: (596) Scheila and Saturn White Spots (Jay Eads) > 2. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (garrard55(a)xmission.com) > 3. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (M Wilson) > 4. Re: A reminder: No attachments to UA (Chuck Hards) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:44:12 -0800 (PST) > From: M Wilson <astro_outwest(a)yahoo.com> > To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification > Message-ID: <631018.22005.qm(a)web56502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Here's something that may interest you concerning?one Mormon's > viewpoint on cosmology > http://www.hiltonbooks.com/The_Kolob_Theorem.pdf > ? > Most of it makes sense to me except for the fact that the Earth had > to be moved an extreme amount of distance to its present location > within the Milky Way is what seems to be a too short of a?period of > time to make it totally believeable. > ? > (P S: ? Who's?John Pratt?)?

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A reminder: No attachments to UA
by Patrick Wiggins 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

Just a reminder that the list does not allow attachments (two folks tried to post messages to UA earlier today with files attached). Clear skies, patrick UA Co-Admin

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification
by garrard55＠xmission.com 13 Dec '10

13 Dec '10

In recent years I have been involved in astronomy outreach to public schools along the Wasatch Front. I have grown up in Utah. I am aware that, when there are discussions of astronomy, the conflicts beween the big bang and creation arise. In our local communities, there are also ideas discussed regarding Kolob, whether our galaxy is organized into spiritual realms, inhabitants of other bodies in the solar system, etc. Some of the commentary comes from fringe writers, some from ardent religionists, some from credentialed people like John Heinerman and John Pratt. This has given rise to a very confusing situation, which I would like to try to describe and clarify. Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: > Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to > utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: privatization was space-x yada yada > (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) > 2. Re: request for information re: Mormon astronomy > (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:59:35 -0700 > From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] privatization was space-x yada yada > Message-ID: > <e0658ecd7978ac90cc481c1b9cd3a024.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >> Parental DNA involves 2 parents, there is genetic information from one > parent that might not be expressed in the offspring. A departure seems > rather hard to define and things thought of as a departure, in reality > may not be. Multiple genes can determine a single trait, we have a lot to > learn about the interplay of genetic info. Genes can also be latent just > unexpressed, so a seeming departure might be contained in parental DNA. > Birth defects are very much contained in parental DNA, environmental > influence may also come into play. I would argue bio-diversity is > ingrained in DNA, it strengthens a species. > > If a parent has blue eyes and the offspring has brown, is that a mutation? > I apologize for the over simplification. The genetic code is a long way > form being figured out, it has only been crudely mapped. > > > > I believe any variation from parental DNA is by definition a >> "mutation", whether good or bad. >> >> On 12/11/10, erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net <erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net> >> wrote: >>> I would argue not all variation would be described as a >>> "mutation". >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:12:22 -0700 > From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon > astronomy > Message-ID: > <9aaf28af9fc4b44c9ce085013f9164cd.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >> I understand it asserts that the sun does not generate its own energy. > That the sun receives an influx of energy from its parent. Planet Kolob? > > > > I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would >> like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and >> non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the >> Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly >> at garrard55(a)xmission.com. Thanks. >> >> >> >> Quoting utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com: >> >>> Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to >>> utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> utah-astronomy-request(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> utah-astronomy-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: evolution (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >>> 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) >>> (erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 >>> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >>> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution >>> Message-ID: >>> <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >>> >>>> There is much about evolution that is not understood, that Darwin did >>>> not >>> understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it. It >>> is >>> a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to >>> illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the human >>> race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me >>> mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the parent, >>> they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated it. >>> Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) >>> then >>> we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have >>> become >>> more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million >>> years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it is >>> capable of. >>> >>> The beauty of science is that theories are always open to modification. >>> >>> It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but scientific >>> thought often has in the past. >>> >>> >>> Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. >>> Understanding >>>> evolution is vital to understanding biology >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Gary Vardon >>>> The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to >>>> your >>>> greater success. GO to PublishAmerica.com >>>> Consulting For Profit is also available. Learn how to make money as a >>>> consultant. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 >>> From: erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >>> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>> Payload) >>> Message-ID: >>> <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel(a)webmail.thebluezone.net> >>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >>> >>>> It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the >>>> universe >>> is older than we believe. >>> Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from >>> older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the >>> universe >>> is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material >>> would >>> have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their >>> theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it >>> as >>> it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the >>> notion we live in closed universe. >>> >>> There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to >>> have >>> evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell >>> organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can >>> change in hours. >>> The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up >>> from virtually nothing. >>> How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. >>> It >>> always get to question: How did this all begin? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not >>>> evolution) >>>> and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a >>>> closed >>>> system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the >>>> second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you start >>>> looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic >>>> proteins >>>> cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. >>>> As >>>> Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single >>>> cell >>>> forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going >>>> through a >>>> junkyard and creating a 747". >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim >>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM >>>> To: 'Utah Astronomy' >>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>>> Payload) >>>> >>>> I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious >>>> person >>>> I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious >>>> texts >>>> regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and >>>> humankind's >>>> role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the >>>> Book >>>> of >>>> Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural >>>> selection/evolution >>>> - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than >>>> the >>>> stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the >>>> sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than >>>> allegorical. >>>> >>>> I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration >>>> and >>>> whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments >>>> I >>>> read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be >>>> jolly? >>>> >>>> Kim >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of erikhansen(a)thebluezone.net >>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM >>>> To: Utah Astronomy >>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>>> Payload) >>>> >>>>> Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random >>>>> mutations >>>> may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. >>>> I >>>> saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is >>>> advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more >>>> gradually, >>>> IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the >>>> answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. >>>> Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just >>>> mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years >>>> and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date. >>>> >>>> Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed >>>> research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. >>>> >>>> >>>> Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in >>>> SLC? >>>>> ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at >>>>> least >>>>> we don't get the inversions.) >>>>> >>>>> The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't >>>>> mind, >>>>> but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have >>>>> thoughts >>>>> that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While >>>>> musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about >>>>> creatures >>>>> that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and >>>>> crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no >>>>> eyes. >>>>> There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. >>>>> The >>>>> interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the >>>>> world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had >>>>> any >>>>> connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the >>>>> geography >>>>> too >>>>> great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary >>>>> science >>>>> is >>>>> that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the >>>>> environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My >>>>> thought >>>>> is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on >>>>> extraordinary) >>>>> that similar or identical species without contact with one another >>>>> would >>>>> experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical >>>>> outcomes, >>>>> i.e. new species with no eyes. >>>>> >>>>> I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the >>>>> overwhelming >>>>> evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't >>>>> this >>>>> present some significant problems for evolutionary theory? >>>>> >>>>> I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts >>>>> about >>>>> this. >>>>> >>>>> Kim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe >>>>> Bauman >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM >>>>> To: Utah Astronomy >>>>> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>>>> Payload) >>>>> >>>>> Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe >>>>> --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60(a)xmission.com >>>>> <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: stormcrow60(a)xmission.com <stormcrow60(a)xmission.com> >>>>>> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>>>>> Payload) >>>>>> To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>>> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty >>>>>> years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of >>>>>> establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no >>>>>> other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space >>>>>> exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we >>>>>> abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could >>>>>> accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of >>>>>> endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the >>>>>> space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The >>>>>> fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. >>>>>> Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into >>>>>> what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world >>>>>> of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, >>>>>> it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial >>>>>> complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. >>>>>> Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export >>>>>> anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits >>>>>> were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we >>>>>> find that other nations have attained space programs as >>>>>> effective as ours. These are governments... not private >>>>>> enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private >>>>>> enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off >>>>>> the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will >>>>>> reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and >>>>>> watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the >>>>>> American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, >>>>>> once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the >>>>>> bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company >>>>>> landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... >>>>>> something the federal government did forty one years ago. >>>>>> So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal >>>>>> government to head the space program, and expand both manned >>>>>> space flight and robotic space exploration. >>>>>> ???I believe that within the next ten years, >>>>>> the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, >>>>>> China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... >>>>>> and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is >>>>>> meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not >>>>>> either. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jon >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> No virus found in this message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>>> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >>> >>> End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 43 >>> ********************************************** >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > > End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 47 > ********************************************** >

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