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Re: M_Boats: Removing stubborn clamcleat
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 16 Jan '14

16 Jan '14

Tom, Don't apply heat and solvent at same time - more contemplation has occurred - we think that may have negative effects unless your insurance coverage is exceptional. GO duh In a message dated 1/14/2014 12:32:42 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, GILASAILR(a)aol.com writes: Tom, A little solvent of your choice -lacquer thinner, acetone helps - my genoa camcleat was 'grown on' and that helped - heat helps -we have that in abundance down here- left a lot of residue - dark brown bedding compnd - used everything in the quiver - finally a brass brush & acetone + an exacto knife blade (#7) to clean out the last bits - lotsa contemplative time whilst scraping and pondering the real meaning of life. After that exercise - I had it ALL figgered out - I am a self actualized boat grunt! Give it hell! GO - going racing agin the big guns this weekend! 2014 WICR/Potter Invitational In a message dated 1/14/2014 11:04:03 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org writes: Tom- I don't know of a sure cure, but if you made a little, sharp, hardwood wedge and just got it started, then tapping it in more as the cleat loosened up, it would probably work, I've done that before with no problems. It's probably just frozen on! jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Smith" <openboatt(a)gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 8:58 AM Subject: M_Boats: Removing stubborn clamcleat > I'm changing out the foresail halyard clamcleat on the cabin-top of my > M17. Man, that baby is on there. Removed the bolts/nuts, but she no want > to move. I hesitate to pry because it's so well seated I'm afraid a chunk > of 'glass will come up too. > > Any suggestions on how to get this thing loosened up? The careful > application of heat? Some kind of solvent? > > Suggestions appreciated. Tom > > > t _/\_ > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 9866 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen

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Outboard Motors
by David Grah 15 Jan '14

15 Jan '14

A bit over a year ago I replaced a 2.5 horsepower two stroke Tohatsu with a 2 horsepower four stroke Honda for my Montgomery 15. I have been completely happy with the motor and would want nothing else (although I do occasionally find use for an electric trolling motor). It is a great motor and I have never had a doubt that it has enough power except for an experience last May at LakePowell. This experience didn't show me it didn't have enough power but it did make me wonder. The forecast that day was for gusts to 45 miles per hour and it was very windy on the lake. At the time we were attempting to motor up a channel in a quarter to a half mile wide with canyon walls on either side. The wind gusts were enough to lift spray 20 to 30 feet in the air although the waves were not large because of limited fetch. I'd guess the wind was Force 7 to 8 which I guess would be close to a gusts to 45 mile per hour situation. In the strongest sustained wind with the Honda full throttle and locked straight ahead and the centerboard up I found I did not have enough rudder authority to motor anything but off the wind. We were wanting to go approximately to windward and I couldn't make the boat go that way because the wind would blow us to one side or another. The best I could do is go about straight across the wind. I did not attempt to steer with the motor. It was suggested later that I should have tried it with the centerboard down, which makes a lot of sense but I didn't have the chance to try it. David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15

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Re: M_Boats: Removing stubborn clamcleat
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 14 Jan '14

14 Jan '14

Tom, A little solvent of your choice -lacquer thinner, acetone helps - my genoa camcleat was 'grown on' and that helped - heat helps -we have that in abundance down here- left a lot of residue - dark brown bedding compnd - used everything in the quiver - finally a brass brush & acetone + an exacto knife blade (#7) to clean out the last bits - lotsa contemplative time whilst scraping and pondering the real meaning of life. After that exercise - I had it ALL figgered out - I am a self actualized boat grunt! Give it hell! GO - going racing agin the big guns this weekend! 2014 WICR/Potter Invitational In a message dated 1/14/2014 11:04:03 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org writes: Tom- I don't know of a sure cure, but if you made a little, sharp, hardwood wedge and just got it started, then tapping it in more as the cleat loosened up, it would probably work, I've done that before with no problems. It's probably just frozen on! jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Smith" <openboatt(a)gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 8:58 AM Subject: M_Boats: Removing stubborn clamcleat > I'm changing out the foresail halyard clamcleat on the cabin-top of my > M17. Man, that baby is on there. Removed the bolts/nuts, but she no want > to move. I hesitate to pry because it's so well seated I'm afraid a chunk > of 'glass will come up too. > > Any suggestions on how to get this thing loosened up? The careful > application of heat? Some kind of solvent? > > Suggestions appreciated. Tom > > > t _/\_ > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 9866 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen

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Re: M_Boats: outboard motors
by Dave Scobie 14 Jan '14

14 Jan '14

I agree that the chances of there being an explosion are low. I have smelled gas in the cabin before I made the modification on my boat. Gave me a headache which was why I went after the source. In the end, all it takes is just the right amount of fumes and a spark for the big boom to happen. I sleep better knowing my aft locker is safe ( better stated 'safer' as there are no guarantees). :: Dave Scobie jerry montgomery <jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org> wrote: >I'll agree with Tom here- unless you stood the boat on it's head the only >gas that could get in the cabin area would be fumes, and I think they would >be so diluted that they wouldn't be a problem. > >jerry >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tom Smith" <openboatt(a)gmail.com> >To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" ><montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 6:51 PM >Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard motors > > >> Yup, you're right Dave, there's a gap there--along the aft side of the top >> of the locker. Yet that locker was obviously specifically designed to >> house an outboard motor fuel tank, so go figure. >> >> Because my locker is probably 12 inches deep with what appears to be very >> good ventilation, and because gasoline fumes are much heavier than air, I >> remain convinced that gasoline fumes from a marine grade fuel tank in good >> working order pose no hazard (at least on my boat--if you sail with me, >> you're rolling the dice fireball-wise). I'll go out on a limb here, but I >> suspect you're running a far greater fire risk when you pull in to fuel up >> your car than by keeping an OB fuel tank in the aft locker. >> >> I would be interested to hear from an M sailor (or their caregiver) who >> has >> had an explosive experience. >> >> Thanks for the heads-up on the gap though. That may come in handy when I >> lose the standard motor mount... t >> >> >> >> t _/\_ >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:14 PM, W David Scobie <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Tom: >>> >>> just to confirm - >>> >>> when looking into the locker, without looking up, the locker does seem to >>> be 'sealed'. it is the 'upper/top' locations outlined below that are the >>> concern. >>> >>> be sure to feel along the top of the aft end of the locker. this is >>> likely open to the space between the aft cockpit wall and the transom. >>> if >>> this gap isn't filled gas can get into the cabin. >>> >>> also look along the aft-top of the locker port and starboard. the locker >>> walls, or the 'pan that makes up the locker' are not likely full height, >>> are not taped/glassed to the 'top' of the aft locker, and open to the aft >>> ends of the port and starboard lockers. i was able to reach over this >>> partial wall and unbolt my M17's motor mount. >>> >>> there is also a gap between the locker's wall and curved space where the >>> locker lid sets. this area is very small, but not sealed. i filled this >>> area with thickened epoxy and then covered with mat & glass. >>> >>> see pictures - >>> >>> http://m17-375.webs.com/apps/blog/show/prev?from_id=6848827 >>> >>> (look at photos following the heading 'Pictures of the completed >>> fiberglass work:' (about 1/2 through the post). >>> >>> i believe i have more pictures of the project that show the locations i >>> sealed. >>> >>> again, the bottom of the locker is sealed (it must be or when water >>> enters >>> the locker the water drains into the cabin). the _top_ of the locker >>> isn't >>> sealed. >>> >>> this isn't to say your boat's locker isn't sealed .. but the Jerry's SOP >>> didn't include making the aft locker 'gas tight' to the cabin. >>> >>> >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Mon, 1/13/14, Tom Smith <openboatt(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I had to walk out to my >>> shop to look at my M17 after reading your caution, >>> Dave, because I was nearly positive there is no >>> vapor access from the aft >>> locker to the >>> interior of the boat. There is not, plus there are two >>> large >>> access holes from the locker through >>> the transom--probably 2"-- either side >>> of the rudder, so there's pretty good >>> circulation. I can't speak for other >>> late model jerry-built boats, nor can I speak >>> for those Bob is building. >>> >>> So at least for my '92 M17, I have no >>> qualms about keeping an outboard fuel >>> supply >>> there, though I'd certainly hesitate to store propane >>> anywhere. >>> >>> Regarding OB >>> info, Thomas, search the msog archives--I'd bet there >>> are >>> hundreds, perhaps thousands, of posts on >>> motors there. t >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> t _/\_ >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:56 PM, W David Scobie >>> <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > i view gasoline >>> to be as dangerous as propane (or any heavier than air >>> > gas/fuel). >>> > >>> > remember folks - a stock 1983 or newer >>> M17's aft locker has no vapor >>> > >>> barrier to the cabin ... don't store your fuel (gas, >>> propane, butane, etc) >>> > in the aft locker >>> unless you modify the boat (i sealed off my M17's >>> locker >>> > and installed proper airflow >>> vents). >>> > >>> > >>> > :: Dave Scobie >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> > On Mon, 1/13/14, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Following along, was >>> > interested to hear about the 3.5 on the >>> Precision 18. >>> > I am leaning in that >>> direction. Tohatsu's >>> > (being the >>> first outboards ever >>> > produced) >>> > have a pretty good reputation for >>> reliability. >>> > I have always been >>> concerned about propane in a >>> > boat >>> since it is heavier >>> > than air the >>> fumes >>> > could find their way below and >>> then with a little >>> > spark.......... >>> > This has been a >>> > >>> great string for information. >>> > Thanks >>> to all >>> > who have contributed. >>> > Tom B >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Jan 13, >>> 2014 at >>> > 3:40 PM, W David Scobie >>> <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > Tom (and others >>> > following along): >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> yeah, the issue is when the motor is cold she will not >>> idle >>> > ... you need >>> > > to advance the throttle a >>> > good amount ... and she sputters and >>> gasps, to >>> > > keep her running until >>> warmed up. barely >>> > wants to run if >>> in gear. >>> > > >>> > >>> > for the pulls it seems that you need have >>> > the motor turning over a bunch >>> > > to get >>> > the >>> gas to travel from bottle through the fuel lines. once >>> > motor >>> > > has >>> started she will fire up in >>> > one or >>> two pulls after stopping IF you >>> > >>> > >>> > don't unscrew the fuel >>> bottle. >>> > > >>> > >>> > now ... the instructions for the motor say >>> > to unscrew the fuel bottle if >>> > > you are >>> > not >>> going to use the motor again in a 'short period of >>> > time'. i >>> > >>> > take this to meaning, as >>> > there >>> is no fuel off valve, that they don't trust >>> > > the motor not to leak gas (you kill >>> the >>> > motor like all other outboards >>> with >>> > > a >>> > >>> red button by the throttle lever). again, there is no >>> > 'fuel valve' so >>> > > when the >>> > >>> throttle is in idle some gas will leak? there is no >>> > 'off' >>> > >>> > throttle position. is >>> > there an >>> 'interconnect' that only allows the fuel >>> > to >>> > > feed if >>> the motor is turning (either >>> > running >>> or when being bulled)? >>> > > >>> > > that 'unscrew the bottle' >>> thing i >>> > don't like. this means >>> that if you sail >>> > > all day you >>> shouldn't keep the bottle >>> > in >>> place. if you need to get the >>> > >>> > >>> > motor running quickly you must >>> screw the bottle into place >>> > and pull >>> many >>> > > times to get fuel to the >>> > cylinder. i can fill a Honda 2HP >>> gasoline motor >>> > > and start it >>> faster than the prior >>> > described >>> process. or, just hope the >>> > > >>> > motor doesn't leak gas all day and >>> you don't find >>> > you are without >>> fuel when >>> > > wanting to >>> > start the motor. >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> > > On Mon, 1/13/14, Tom Jenkins <tjenk(a)gte.net> >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Dave, >>> > > >>> > >>> > I don't know why a choke would be >>> > > necessary, as their purpose is to >>> enrich >>> > the fuel mixture >>> > > until the engine is >>> > warm enough to vaporize all the fuel >>> > > >>> > droplets. >>> Propane is of course already a vapor at >>> > boating >>> > > >>> temperatures (unless you are >>> > boating >>> on Mars, which has some >>> > > >>> other >>> > negatives). >>> > > >>> > > As >>> > for >>> > > the >>> 12-15 pulls, that is equally >>> > puzzling >>> from a physics >>> > > >>> > perspective. I wonder if other folks >>> have this problem. >>> > > Glad you >>> brought it up for >>> > discussion. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Tom >>> > > M17 >>> Scintilla >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > On >>> > > Jan 13, 2014, at >>> 10:06 AM, W David >>> > Scobie wrote: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > i don't recommend a >>> > > >>> > short-shaft >>> outboard on an M17 ... cavitation city! >>> > sadly, >>> > > the >>> LEHR 2.5 is only available >>> > in a short >>> shaft. >>> > > > >>> > > > glad you like your >>> > > LEHR Steve. i'm not fully >>> happy >>> > with the one Sage >>> > > Marine purchased >>> > - >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > poor >>> fit/finish, doesn't run correctly >>> > >>> > (not running up to full RPM), difficult >>> > to start first time >>> > > (when cold or >>> > just after installing fuel bottle 12-15 >>> pulls >>> > > required), no choke (is >>> needed for a >>> > cold start to keep >>> > > motor running >>> > until warmed up), and no fuel cutoff. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > :: Dave Scobie >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> > > > On Mon, 1/13/14, Steve >>> Lindeman >>> > <lindeman.steven(a)gmail.com> >>> > > wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > I >>> > >>> switched to the Lehr 2.5 propane >>> > >>> > > >>> > aux power for my M-15 >>> last year. It >>> > > >>> > should have plenty >>> > > > of power for >>> > the >>> > > >>> M-17. I haven't used it >>> > much >>> yet but >>> > > > been happy so >>> > far. No hassle with >>> > > winterizing or >>> > gas >>> > > > >>> spills. It only >>> > > has F-N so >>> it requires a 180 turn for >>> > > >>> > >>> > > reverse. I >>> > was concerned about this but it >>> hasn't >>> > > been >>> > > > a >>> > >>> problem. >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> Steve Lindeman >>> > > > >>> > > M-15 Sadie >>> > >>> Lee >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> > > >-- >I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. >SPAMfighter has removed 9864 of my spam emails to date. >Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > >Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen > > >

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Removing stubborn clamcleat
by Tom Smith 14 Jan '14

14 Jan '14

I'm changing out the foresail halyard clamcleat on the cabin-top of my M17. Man, that baby is on there. Removed the bolts/nuts, but she no want to move. I hesitate to pry because it's so well seated I'm afraid a chunk of 'glass will come up too. Any suggestions on how to get this thing loosened up? The careful application of heat? Some kind of solvent? Suggestions appreciated. Tom t _/\_

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Re: M_Boats: How Much Should I Pay For This 1979 M17?
by bownez＠juno.com 13 Jan '14

13 Jan '14

Hi Henry, That M17 doesn't look too shabby to me. If you are not interested in her, I have a WI sailing buddy looking for one.... What is it worth? I would not venture to guess without a look see. Good luck. Bones in Mpls ____________________________________________________________ Do THIS before eating carbs (every time) 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52d4daec149265aeb6b18st01vuc

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Re: M_Boats: outboard motors
by Dave Scobie 13 Jan '14

13 Jan '14

Bones is right that the best four horsepower was the Yamaha. The problem is that the current build 4 horsepower is really the 6 horsepower motor ... So you have a motor that weighs 70 or so pounds. I am not aware of any true 4 horsepower motor still being made. All that I am aware are really 6 horsepower, heavy, motors. :: Dave Scobie bownez(a)juno.com wrote: >Tom, > >I tried an older 3hp Johnson 2 stroke on my M17 years ago that had steering via the head and no transmission. It worked OK out on the water, (as far as an old smelly, noisy, polluting 2 stroke goes) but in the marina it was a pain. There is no neutral so once it is started, you are moving. In a tight docking situation, it presented anxious moments. > >I an using a 2001 Yamaha 4hp, 4 stroke with F-N-R and think it's the premier engine for an M17. I think Dave Scobie mention they are no longer being made. > >You may wish to contact Jerry Lee for the one he has up for sale..... > >Good luck! > >Bones >____________________________________________________________ >How Cruise Lines Fill All Those Unsold Cabins? >(HINT: You will want to book a cruise after you read this...) >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52cf752a33b5e75291951st02vuc >

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How Much Should I Pay For This 1979 M17?
by Henry Rodriguez 13 Jan '14

13 Jan '14

I posted this on the Trailersailers Montgomery board and thought I would also post it here. If you monitor both forums I apologize for the duplication. I just thought I would get some additional opinions here. A friend of mine bought this 79 M17 last spring. It had been sitting in a barn for a dozen years or more. He asked me to help get it ready to sail since he has limited experience with dinghies and none with pocket cruisers. The boat seems to be in pretty good shape even though the sails and everything else appear to be OEM. It has the short traveler T-track at the forward end of the cockpit, a 110% jib, no jib or genoa tracks, an old MSD with holding tank and deck pump-out, water tank with deck fill, and the original wire/rope halyards. The cushions appear to be ok but the electrical system (what there was of it) is toast. The exterior looks decent except for some rusted screws and bolts a previous owner had used to mount some long forgotten pieces of gear. IIRC (the boat is about 250 miles from here) there are some gel coat cracks on the transom that could use some work. The exterior woodwork is in bad shape and the hatch boards are missing but that is no big deal. The outboard mount is stiff and the wood pad is rotted. Except for rotted tires and bad wiring the trailer is in pretty good shape. The keel cable looks to be in good shape as far as I can tell without lifting the boat, and the keel goes up and down ok. My friend decided he wanted a little bit bigger boat and found a Halman 20 he liked the looks of in Toronto. (see latest Small Craft Advisor for a review of this model). He bought the boat over the phone and will go get it this spring. Now he is thinking of selling the M17. I have a chance to buy it at what I hope will be a good price. He also mentioned the possibility of buying in for half ownership at half price, whatever that is. My dilemma is this: I already have a beautiful pocket cruiser that I have owned for over 35 years and dearly love, my 1974 Macgregor Venture of Newport, Chiquita. If I bought the M17 I would have two small cruisers. Unlike Sean's Dauntless and Scout, however, there is not that big a difference in size. So I don't think I would have two entirely different sailing experiences; they would be more alike than different. Raising 3 grandkids (possibly soon to be 4)and living on Soc Sec makes money tight. My rationalization for owning two cruising boats (in addition to the Mirror, El Toro, and Force 5 sailing dinghies) is this: I could leave Chiquita in the water here and hook up the M17 to take off with 1 or 2 of the grandkids for a few days or a week to explore any of Minnesota's 10000+ lakes any time I felt like it. Also, the M17 could become my primary boat as I get older if Chiquita gets to be too much to handle. I cannot fathom ever selling Chiquita; she would go to my oldest daughter or to the grandkids. So what are your opinions? Here are my specific questions: 1. How much do you think this boat is worth? What would be a fair price and what would be a really good deal? 2. Should I go for it? Depending on price, of course. 3. perhaps for a later discussion,if I did buy this boat, what mods would you consider essential? Looking forward to your input. Henry Chiquita ps - The tanbark jib in the pictures is one I bought on ebay to use as a heavy weather staysail on Chiquita. I hanked it on to the M17 along with the M17's own jib just to see how it would fit. -- Henry Rodriguez https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir (see the album "Jay's 1979 Montgomery 17")

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Re: M_Boats: outboard motors
by Steve Lindeman 13 Jan '14

13 Jan '14

I switched to the Lehr 2.5 propane aux power for my M-15 last year. It should have plenty of power for the M-17. I haven't used it much yet but been happy so far. No hassle with winterizing or gas spills. It only has F-N so it requires a 180 turn for reverse. I was concerned about this but it hasn't been a problem. Steve Lindeman M-15 Sadie Lee

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Re: M_Boats: outboard motors
by Steve Lindeman 13 Jan '14

13 Jan '14

Sounds like the short shaft makes the Lehr poor choice for the M-17. Dave, I have not experienced the problems you are having. I purchased my motor from the Lehr dealer for the Annapolis area. They gave it a full tune up and adjustment. It was mentioned that the factory does not do a good job of adjusting them. I would seek out your local Lehr service and have it adjusted. When they gave me the short lesson on owning a propane motor, maintenance, etc - they indicated that I should remove the propane when winterizing and if I am not going to use it for several weeks. It was not mentioned or suggested that the fuel tank be removed for regular usage. I will follow-up with my dealer to be sure. As for fit and finish, I completely agree. The Hondas and my old Nissan were well made motors. The Lehr feels a bit cheap. The plastic cover for example is pretty thin and flexs quite a bit. Seems like they were cutting corners or trying the reduce weight. Hopefully it will hold up over many years of use. Steve M-15 Sadie Lee

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