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A gremlin in the cb ballast compartment
by Thomas Buzzi 16 Mar '15

16 Mar '15

Help! My friend, Ken, is rehabbing a Montgomery 17, 1974, hull #52. Recently he has had to open up the ballast compartment to repair damage that occurred when a previous owner allowed the cb to smash the stopper bolt out the bottom of the hull. Ouch! While he was at that he decided to open up one side of the cb to see what was causing a bulge in the cb wall inside the trunk. He then added some lead and epoxied the removed pieces of hull back in place. At that time he noticed that something was preventing the usual hardening of the epoxy he was using. All did finally take a set and was fine for a couple of months until seepage formed at the bolt holding the stop pin in place and his repair of the side of the cb trunk higher on the trunk started softening up. He opened the upper patch and some yellow fluid oozed out. Anybody have any ideas what is going on and how it could be happening? I have used epoxy several times on the polyester hull of my M17 built in 1977 with no problems whatever. There is some chemical in the ballast compartment of Ken's boat that is raising havoc with the epoxy. Any suggestions will be much appreciated. Puzzled in Rockport, Tom B, M17, "AS IS"

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Re: M_Boats: 80% jib
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 16 Mar '15

16 Mar '15

Tom, My spin on the three questions: 1. - PaintBoy's keel retracts up into the cabin - it comes up vertically and is hoisted on a winch/frame that is located in the companionway hatch -bulb tucks up under the hull very nicely Stan did a GREAT job on the boat! 2. - Tall rig improvement is most noticeable by myself in light air. Fairly big deal around here in the desert as we have typically light conditions. - Mast is 21" longer - boom same - headsails can be 21" longer on the luff - not a big physical dimension but it works. (rig also weighs more) 3. - Ida Rudder would not be a 'penalty' - this group doesn't really care what kind of rudder (to some extent keels) you have - build a hollow one & fill it with helium - the change in performance would be negligible - straight, stiff and a good shape is most important - few meet the criteria - there is no one-design standard and many have/are building their own version (some beautiful) of a "Good Rudder". I just got a phone call from an owner about their 'new rudder'. Let's be realistic, - the boats are GREAT - but still pretty slow compared to other larger, faster boats - compared to other in its size range - it is spectacular! Some of the group is VERY serious - about sailing to the best of the boat/sailors abilities AND having fun - but they are just as good a source of instruction and sharing ANY and ALL skill, tips, even boats- as any group I have personally been associated with over years of cycling,auto and sail sports racing at local & national levels - No prima donnas here. One of the fleet members built me the 'new rudder' for my boat! Guess who?- a nice guy! IF there was active PHRF or mixed fleet racing using handicap formulae, this would be a different scenario - but racing between the same boats, most all of which have been 'modified' intentionally or accidentally, it seems to be working - few complaints if any. We are open to ANY & ALL commentary and assistance to make it accessible and FUN for ALL - this isn't world politics - it is 'racing short stubby boats' for fun and skill! Nothing more - it seems to amuse a group of us. Have FUn - Go Sail GO this response was sent to the list as it may show what the 'racing group' of the WrinkleBoat fleet is about- one persons version.

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Re: M_Boats: 80% jib
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 15 Mar '15

15 Mar '15

Tom, Only difference in M-17 ratings recently applied around here (West US) were : Standard rig, tall rig and OMG-look-at-that-rig-and-keel' versions - the later is a highly modified freestanding rotating CF rig with fathead main and bulbed retracting keel - SOOO fast in light to moderate air it is AMAZING - heavy air - almost normal if no the same- name of yacht - "Paintboy" Equipment 'on board' is not 'rated' - usually just the configuration of the boat and any/all modifications that would improve performance (keels, rigs, rudders, spinn poles, etc), SAILS and typical deck rigging are NOT an issue as long as sails measure to correct sizes. Really more 'smoke blowing' at the level the M-Boats have been racing in this geographic area - we try hard to keep it fair as that helps all feel honestly treated. We have had ZERO protests for infractions and ALL are very open about the equipment. As example - my boat has a tall rig - It carries or is assessed a rating 'penalty' for the larger rig (21 inches taller than standard rig) the boat has an 'almost completed new rudder' that is actually more 'optimized and well shaped' than larger/smaller/lighter etc - the previous rudder was approx. 39# (!) this one is not nearly that heavy - but could be replicated in wood if one desired (there is no one design rudder for the M-17 - numerous versions were used including semi balanced models). - I think the current rudder on a 'new boat' is CA machine shaped plastic foil with kick-up mechanism. PaintBoy is highly modified, we have a M-15 gaff cutter type rig - and another highly modified M-17 in building/stages (slowly building a fast M-17) The goal we have strived for in our "Racing" program is to share information,tips etc and encourage ALL levels of boat/sailors via skill building. No blood-thirsty-line-barging folk that I have seen - others may chime in as to their experiences. The "Intergalactic" moniker - was suggested by a participant as we are not able to call the event a 'National' or 'World' , 'North American' or 'Pan American' Championship due to ISAF/US Sailing rules hence - Intergalactic - as it is beyond their perview! No parachutes required. ALWAYS watch the boat ahead of you when racing especially if it is the same type - they are ahead for a reason! 2016 may see a number of boats coincidentally converging on LH,AZ in February - too early to know at this time? Take Care, Have Fun, Go Sailing! GO In a message dated 3/15/2015 3:04:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com writes: Wow!. So two M 17's sitting side by side may get different ratings according to equipment aboard? Is that what you meant by "more and accurate ratings"? Guess I will just show up someday and see what happens. Maybe bring some good binocs so I can spy on Jerry to see what he is doing;-} For that "Intergalactic" thing do I need to pack a triple parachute for reentry? Good stuff! On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 4:25 PM, <_GILASAILR(a)aol.com_ (mailto:GILASAILR@aol.com) > wrote: Tom, - many times the M-Boats are scored under Portsmouth (D-PN) as there are more and accurate ratings for the 'short boats' in Portsmouth. - PHRF if you are sailing a 17 or larger in a mixed fleet- this depends on the event organizers. For the WrinkleBoat Intergalactic Championship Regatta we use D-PN for M-15, M-17, M-23 and Sage 17 _www.ussailing.org_ (http://www.ussailing.org/) › Racing › US Offshore - look for "Portsmouth Ratings' - 'Offshore' for M-17, M-23 - I think the M-15 is under 'Centerboard Classes' >From what I recall the last LHPCC Long Distance Race used PHRF ratings - Doug Kelch would know as I believe he was on R/C. GO In a message dated 3/14/2015 2:19:25 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, _thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com) writes: I don't plan to formally race the boat. Interesting about the "inhauler" though. I just want to go where I want to go when I want to. Is that PHRF stuff used at places like Lake Havasu? I used to crew on a boss's old 38 Pearson sloop. Since I didn't know much about sailing at the time circa 1967 they put me on "monkey detail" cranking the jib sheet. Once it was all done I thought about the tension on that sheet block and what would happen if any part of it let go. Even on a small boat (Mont.17) the forces can surprise you when things go "pop". fair winds, Tom B. On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 2:15 PM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats <_montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com_ (mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com) > wrote: Re. Barber haul / In haul Quote from J -105 Owners Group - "The class doesn't specifically prohibit inhauling, but doesn't allow an inhauler rig. You can get good results by using the lazy sheet on the opposite winch. This is very effective at improving point." Discussions found as to inhaul (technically the opposite of Barber haul - Barber haul - for outboard lead & inhaul - for inboard lead) for the headsails on J-105 as a One Design (neither 'haul' is allowed in class rules) and PHRF (typically allowed). Be sure to allow for some twist at the upper leech in heavy air and waves. >From Viper 640 Group - "use the lazy sheet to pull the foot of the jib inboard" Lazy sheet method seems best - no additional hardware - snap shackles on sheets or clew in heavy air is a recipe for damage and possible injury IMO ( have witnessed the ugly result of a flailing shackle and a crew's face - horrible!). Have Fun Go Sailing - GO In a message dated 3/12/2015 12:41:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, _jdavies104(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:jdavies104@gmail.com) writes: Tom, The barber hauler is a good idea. Has anyone deployed one on an M17? If so, I'd be interested in the setup. Will it work with a roller furled genoa with an adjustable jib sheet car? Regarding reefing, I've sailed Lynne L in a 15-18 kt breeze gusting to around 25 in short, steep river chop with a single reefed main and the genoa rolled up to around 80 to 90, and she foots easily to windward at 4.5 kt. Did get kinda wet, though . . . Seems like sailing with the jib alone would be pretty unbalanced. Appreciate any suggestions. Thanks, Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, March 12, 2015, Thomas Buzzi <_thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com) <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','_thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com) ');>> wrote: > Thanks for the feedback, Tom. > I have flown jibs with a pendant before. Reefing the main sounds like a > good idea always. A double reef sometimes maybe? How long are the supports > (cannot think of that term) for the roach on the jib? I once had a row of > reef points put in a 110 jib when I owned a Flicka. That worked quite well > also, it let the boat sail on her lines better in a stiff wind. Be very > interesting to see how high I could point with an 80 in front of a reefed > main with a barber hauler closing the angle to about 10degrees on the jib. > Fun in little boats! > > Fair winds, > Tom B > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Tom Smith <_openboatt(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:openboatt@gmail.com) > wrote: > > > Hi Tom. I've sailed under small headsail alone a few times (the boat > still > > points quite well...), but prefer to reef the main when sailing in higher > > winds. The luff of the jib Don built for me is a foot or 18 inches short > > of the full length of the fore-stay, and I use a length of pendent at the > > tack so I have a bit of viewing distance under the sail. Works good, > and I > > understand most of the work is being performed at the top of the sail > > anyway. t > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:18 PM, Thomas Buzzi <_thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com_ (mailto:thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com) > > > wrote: > > > > > Don Yager sent me a description of the 80% jib he built for Tom Smith. > It > > > sounds "bomb proof" and of excellent quality. He said I could use it to > > > sail back (up wind) when conditions did not permit use of an outboard, > > too > > > much wave action I presume. Tom or anybody, have you used just a jib to > > > sail to windward in blustery conditions? Seems like with the lee helm > > > generated (?) you couldn't point very high with just that jib set. Is > > that > > > "80" cut high enough so you can see under it when heeled over? It is > > pricey > > > but having been blown down wind from my take out point at one time (was > > not > > > flying a jib, just the main on my 17) I know that isn't much fun. > > > > > > fair winds, > > > Tom B, Mont.17 #258, "AS IS" > > > > > >

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80% jib
by Thomas Buzzi 14 Mar '15

14 Mar '15

Don Yager sent me a description of the 80% jib he built for Tom Smith. It sounds "bomb proof" and of excellent quality. He said I could use it to sail back (up wind) when conditions did not permit use of an outboard, too much wave action I presume. Tom or anybody, have you used just a jib to sail to windward in blustery conditions? Seems like with the lee helm generated (?) you couldn't point very high with just that jib set. Is that "80" cut high enough so you can see under it when heeled over? It is pricey but having been blown down wind from my take out point at one time (was not flying a jib, just the main on my 17) I know that isn't much fun. fair winds, Tom B, Mont.17 #258, "AS IS"

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Re: M_Boats: 80% jib
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 14 Mar '15

14 Mar '15

Re. Barber haul / In haul Quote from J -105 Owners Group - "The class doesn't specifically prohibit inhauling, but doesn't allow an inhauler rig. You can get good results by using the lazy sheet on the opposite winch. This is very effective at improving point." Discussions found as to inhaul (technically the opposite of Barber haul - Barber haul - for outboard lead & inhaul - for inboard lead) for the headsails on J-105 as a One Design (neither 'haul' is allowed in class rules) and PHRF (typically allowed). Be sure to allow for some twist at the upper leech in heavy air and waves. >From Viper 640 Group - "use the lazy sheet to pull the foot of the jib inboard" Lazy sheet method seems best - no additional hardware - snap shackles on sheets or clew in heavy air is a recipe for damage and possible injury IMO ( have witnessed the ugly result of a flailing shackle and a crew's face - horrible!). Have Fun Go Sailing - GO In a message dated 3/12/2015 12:41:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jdavies104(a)gmail.com writes: Tom, The barber hauler is a good idea. Has anyone deployed one on an M17? If so, I'd be interested in the setup. Will it work with a roller furled genoa with an adjustable jib sheet car? Regarding reefing, I've sailed Lynne L in a 15-18 kt breeze gusting to around 25 in short, steep river chop with a single reefed main and the genoa rolled up to around 80 to 90, and she foots easily to windward at 4.5 kt. Did get kinda wet, though . . . Seems like sailing with the jib alone would be pretty unbalanced. Appreciate any suggestions. Thanks, Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, March 12, 2015, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com');>> wrote: > Thanks for the feedback, Tom. > I have flown jibs with a pendant before. Reefing the main sounds like a > good idea always. A double reef sometimes maybe? How long are the supports > (cannot think of that term) for the roach on the jib? I once had a row of > reef points put in a 110 jib when I owned a Flicka. That worked quite well > also, it let the boat sail on her lines better in a stiff wind. Be very > interesting to see how high I could point with an 80 in front of a reefed > main with a barber hauler closing the angle to about 10degrees on the jib. > Fun in little boats! > > Fair winds, > Tom B > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Tom. I've sailed under small headsail alone a few times (the boat > still > > points quite well...), but prefer to reef the main when sailing in higher > > winds. The luff of the jib Don built for me is a foot or 18 inches short > > of the full length of the fore-stay, and I use a length of pendent at the > > tack so I have a bit of viewing distance under the sail. Works good, > and I > > understand most of the work is being performed at the top of the sail > > anyway. t > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:18 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Don Yager sent me a description of the 80% jib he built for Tom Smith. > It > > > sounds "bomb proof" and of excellent quality. He said I could use it to > > > sail back (up wind) when conditions did not permit use of an outboard, > > too > > > much wave action I presume. Tom or anybody, have you used just a jib to > > > sail to windward in blustery conditions? Seems like with the lee helm > > > generated (?) you couldn't point very high with just that jib set. Is > > that > > > "80" cut high enough so you can see under it when heeled over? It is > > pricey > > > but having been blown down wind from my take out point at one time (was > > not > > > flying a jib, just the main on my 17) I know that isn't much fun. > > > > > > fair winds, > > > Tom B, Mont.17 #258, "AS IS" > > > > > >

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Re: M_Boats: jibs
by Bruce Ward 11 Mar '15

11 Mar '15

Apologies to the list. I realized after my statement that it could be offensive to some regarding my choice to buy sails made in America instead of mass produced ones in other countries . Perhaps it is my own ignorance or lack of research as I know that quality can come anywhere. I could have bought Canadian built sails but the quotes I received simply did not stack up. I'm weary of globalization and the myths it creates in everyone being better off. only the corporate state of that equation benefits. I better get off this stump. Sent from my iPad

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Re: M_Boats: jibs
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 11 Mar '15

11 Mar '15

In a message dated 3/10/2015 11:32:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, northwave(a)telus.net writes: "I don't want some sweatshop derivative offshore" made sails. Yager, Elliott/Pattison, Ullman Newport Beach, made in the United States of America. A time and a place for nationalism - Jobs for 'locals' is a fair and good reason. Quality is another - quality of life, service and support of OUR workforce. End of politics. BTW - I like some German cars and machinery, Swiss chocolate, French water, British cheese, Japanese cameras, Canadian crackers.........Some of the best sails in the world are made in the USA! Mine have come from Ullman Newport Beach for over 30 years and I have no reason to change. Have a great day - Go Sailing! GO

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Re: M_Boats: jibs
by Bruce Ward 11 Mar '15

11 Mar '15

I. Have had both furling 150 and mainsail made for our M17 and a furling 140 and mainsail for our M23 built by Don Yager from Spokane. Outstanding quality designed and built in the USA. btw, I'm from northern British Columbia and swallowed the Canadian dollar against the U.S. And still used Don because he makes a great build and I don't want some sweatshop derivative offshore. Bruce Sent from my iPad

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jibs
by Nick and Pam Field 10 Mar '15

10 Mar '15

Any advice /recommendation on who I should use for a new jib for Montgomery 17, I have CDI furling Nick and Pam

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Re: M_Boats: Slugs on the mainsail
by Steven C. Gordon 04 Mar '15

04 Mar '15

Slug diameters are measured in fractions of an inch. I think I ordered 3/8" for my M17. If you go to sailrite.com you can see the different sizes and options. On February 25, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com> wrote: Would someone tell me what size slugs to specify to a sailmaker when I have slugs placed on my mainsail? Is measuring as simple as sliding a wooden dowel into the track and then measuring the diameter of the dowel in fractions of an inch or is there some sort of industry jargon like gauge as in wire size or shotgun pellet size or.....? Thanks, Tom B

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