May 2008 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Quotation
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 30 May '08

30 May '08

Danelle, Sail slugs are hassle free and easy UNTIL; one or more breaks or a slug becomes jammed. GO. LB/GF! M-17 # 316a 'that ain't bad gelcoat -it's "patina"! Team Geezer Racing.....Old and in the Way **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

1 0

boltrope adventures
by Danelle Landis 30 May '08

30 May '08

Probably the biggest surprise I had, taking our M17 out for the first two sails, was that it really wasn't easier than sailing my family's 50' boat! Firstly, because I was a complete fumbler with the M17 mainsail - when you're used to a mainsail on slides or slugs - you're used to a sail that obediently slides down the mast, piling onto the boom for rolling/flaking. I was flustered when I let the mainsail down on the M17 and the whole sail seemed to simply fall off, flopping all over the deck like a flock of half-killed chickens. It just seemed wrong! <g> Another thing is that our 50' sailboat had two-speed self-tailing winches *everywhere* - our M17 seems to require more strength sometimes, hauling up halyards with no winches, and these difficult jam cleats rather than cam cleats or just regular cleats. Also, my dad had our big sailboat rigged for singlehanding - we had a windvane and a mechanical self-steering device, so if one had to go work on the deck, it wasn't a big problem. My dad single-handed up and down the coast in that boat, from Mexico to Sitka, AK and over to Hawaii. When I sailed from Hawaii-Seattle with him, we of course took 6 hour watches, so we may as well been single-handing. I was surprised by how many hands were needed to get our M17's sails up and down! Our halyards run into the cockpit, but that does not help when you must hand-feed the boltrope. (My Dad will be pleased when I tell him that I got spoiled on his boat.) My husband surprised me this evening, telling me he'd already ordered a mainsail pre-feeder from Charleston Yachting: http://www.charlestonyachting.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Produc… I really want to be able to single-hand, and raise that sucker from the cockpit! I did find a thread from this list from Feb 2007 discussing slugs vs bolt rope that was instructional. Boy, do I have a lot to learn! Danelle ----- Original Message ---- From: "Paint4Real(a)aol.com" <Paint4Real(a)aol.com> To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:22:12 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail finally! That bolt-rope jam surely is a nuisance if you're single-handing and there's a brisk breeze and a chop while you're trying to get some sail up. In fact, when I first set up my M15, 24 years ago now, I had all lines leading aft into the cockpit, including a jib downhaul, and I figured I'd be running the show from the helm at all times, but the first few attempts to raise the main required that I keep reaching forward to clear a bolt-rope jam -- and having to release my hold on the tiller if the jam was a 2-handed rescue -- and I realized it wasn't really a single-handed rig, quite. My solution was a terrific little ball-bearing guide that fit into the slot just below the opening into which you feed the bolt rope. The head of the sail was fed through the guide FIRST, and then into the wide opening of the slot and then on up the mast. The guide was essentially a pincer shape, the way your thumb and middle finger would look if ringed around a PVC tube, say, with steel ball-bearings attached to "the tips of your thumb and finger." The bearings were adjustable, so that the clearance between them permitted the sail to pass through, but the rope was captured behind them (inside the ring of the fingers, so to speak) and, so, fed cleanly into the opening and up the mast. Rigging at the ramp was a bit of a checklist, as the boom's gooseneck had to go in first and drop down out of the way, then the guide screwed into the slot above it (but still below the wider opening.) Unfortunately, there was one design flaw -- if the adjustment was too loose, the bearings would fall off, as the "designer" hadn't worked out how to include a retainer of some kind (or if there was one, was perhaps a plastic or rubber O-ring and disintegrated over time). When a bearing about 7/8 of an inch falls onto the cabin top on a boat being tossed about by the chop, while you're trying to get some sail area exposed, it can get lost. I had it for 23 years, carefully monitoring the adjustment, and then my son began to take his highschool football playing buddies out on the boat, and "suddenly" the bearings inexplicably disappeared. I have searched in vain for the device, though I have to believe it or something like it is still on the market. I have the design well remembered, and could fairly easily replicate it with some metal stock from the local hardware and a drill bit and die to cut some screw threads. (The steel bearings might be hard to come by. Wooden substitutes would work fine, I think.) I now always trailer, after years in a slip and the attendant weather wear on the boat, but the idea of switching over to slides is certainly intriguing. One thing it would permit is getting the main hanked on in the slip or before ramp launching, yet being able to keep it flaked low on the boom to minimize windage, which can be an issue in a marina if the breeze is up and you don't have a lot of room. With the bolt-rope arrangement, you're left to raise the main about halfway, just to get the job well underway, but there's that other half that's going to jam. I wish I could post photos here, at least of sketches, to make more clear the workings of the guide that feeds the bolt rope up into the mast opening. After I design and build a replacement for the now-lost version, I'll report back on it . . . unless I go with slides, in the interim. I'm not getting any younger, and I sometimes take the easy way out, especially if it frees up time for sailing. Steven Sweeney M15 #324 "Shenanigans" (1985) Stillwater, Minnesota ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

2 1

Re: M_Boats: boltrope adventures
by Paint4Real＠aol.com 30 May '08

30 May '08

In a message dated 5/30/08 12:21:31 AM, anniesark9(a)yahoo.com writes: > Probably the biggest surprise I had, taking our M17 out for the first two > sails, was that it really wasn't easier than sailing my family's 50' boat! > I learned to sail in small boats, in gusty, fluky winds on inland lakes all over Minnesota and Montana, and when the time came to throw serious money into the water and charter 30-footers up on Lake Superior for a few seasons, I figured I'd be in way over my head, if only metaphorically. (Superior is arctic-cold, year-round, so "in over one's head," if literally, is about 10 minutes from the end of the story.) As gloriously thrilling as it was to ride a heavy displacement vessel in 20+ winds over the swells and waves on an inland sea, in terms of actually sailing, it was about 1/3 the effort of keeping the M15 going and dry, without the tons of ballast, the winches for every line, and so on. I've always told folks that if they learn to handle a small boat in all conditions on inland lakes and rivers, they'll be overqualified to sail the bigger vessels when the time comes. My son was an infant, lodged up in the cabin forepeak the first time he "sailed" our 15. I later watched him easily earn his Boy Scout sailing merit badge, which required a deliberate capsize and recovery. Now he's in college, at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, in New York www.usmma.edu. He'll spend a lot of years at sea on vessels that won't require the skipper and crew to move in an instant to the windward side as the boom sweeps across above them -- so he'll have to keep his sailing skills sharp some other way. The academy midshipmen have dozens of boats at their disposal for personal use -- most of them Lasers and other small boats, which really sort out the sailors from the passengers out on the Sound. Small Boats Rule! ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

2 1

Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Quotation
by JDavies104＠aol.com 30 May '08

30 May '08

Hi Danelle, I'm also something of an M-17 newbie, sailing only since late last summer, and, like you, coming off a twenty-year or so hiatus in my sailing career, and since I mainly single-hand and I ain't that young, ease of handling is paramount to me. My main has slugs, and with a sail track stop to hold them into the track, raising and dropping the main is a quick slam-dunk operation. I don't have to leave the helm more than a minute or so (I haven't timed it) to get the sail up or down, which I can do without leaving the cockpit. One foot on the cabin step and the other on the front of the v-berth. The halyard cleats on the mast. The slugs are fed and locked into the track with the stop when the main goes on, and stay there until you want them to come out. There may be other arguments in favor of boltropes, but for hassle-free handling I strongly recommend slugs. Rick Davies M-17 Lynne L Hull #633 ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

1 0

Mainsail Quotation
by Danelle Landis 30 May '08

30 May '08

I apologize for the sudden flurry of messages... I was reading this charming little book my husband dug up for me today (gosh, he's racking up points today!) called "Small Boat Sailing" written in 1962 by "Commander D.A. Rayner " and just now I was reading his thoughts on styles of mainsails, and I'll quote his final word in chapter 5: "In a small cabin boat it is much more difficult (because one cannot hoist the sail without standing on deck) to get under way in a hurry when the mainsail goes up in a groove. I do feel most strongly that any arrangement other than the one which permits the sail to lower and yet remain secure to the mast and ready to re-hoist is most un-seamanlike and most dangerous." I have to say, I felt this in every fiber of my stressed-out being when we were floating toward those islands this weekend, and I was clinging to the mast in rough chop, fussing with a very uncooperative and slow system! Danelle (again) "Ceto" M17 #378 Ketchikan, AK ----- Original Message ---- From: "Paint4Real(a)aol.com" <Paint4Real(a)aol.com> To: GILASAILR(a)aol.com; montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:44:43 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Feeders re: Steve Sweeney's mail. In a message dated 5/29/08 10:51:31 PM, GILASAILR(a)aol.com writes: > http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270807.asp > Again, to all who posted or wrote, thanks. I have the Sailfeeder guide ordered and on its way to me. Pricey, yes, but less so than going with conversion to slides. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

2 1

Bella Coola
by Danelle Landis 30 May '08

30 May '08

Thanks for the tips on the boltrope, Tod. I think a lot of practice is going to make a lot of things smoother for us, definitely! I've heard about how interesting Bella Coola BC is. Isn't that the place with such a steep, rugged terrain coming down into it that the government wouldn't fund a road, so the community hired loggers to do it, or something close? I think my Dad may have told me that. I'll have to ask him if he sailed there. Was BuscaBrisas trailered there? A very twisty, steep road doesn't sound like trailering fun! Our family spent much of our time living on our sailboat on the east coast of Vancouver island. One of our favorite family stories is about a guy named Frank that we met, who lived on a sailboat he'd built out of driftwood, sealed up with creosote, I think. He was based on Hornby island where there was a sort of hippy enclave that we visited a couple of times. The most interesting thing, (to the teenage me and my sister), was that Frank preferred to always sail nude in the summertime! (And hike nude, and swim nude...) Danelle "Ceto" M17 #378 Ketchikan, AK ----- Original Message ---- From: "htmills(a)zoominternet.net" <htmills(a)zoominternet.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:27:44 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: First sail finally! Quite the tale, Danelle! My boat, BuscaBrisas, has been up towards your way even if I haven't. A previous owner sailed her from Port Angeles, WA to Bella Coola BC and back one summer. Still quite a ways from Ketchikan, but... Regarding the boltrope, you have a couple of options: You can stay with the boltrope and just work on your technique, which will make a very big difference or you can add (or have someone add if you prefer) slugs to the sail. If you stay with the boltrope, on a 17 you'll probably need to get up next to the mast on the starboard side. What I've done on boats with a boltrope is first get the sail generally situated and straightened out, then guide it with my right hand by loosely holding the boltrope below the opening and along the mast just forward of the opening. The exact position usually isn't critical and the best place varies depending on the shape of the opening. Then pull on the halyard with my left hand while loosely guiding with the right, passing the halyard to my right (which is also holding the sail) so that the halyard doesn't go swinging off somewhere or the sail come sliding back down. Then I reach up again with the left for another purchase on the halyard, pull it down while feeding with the right, pass off to the right and reach up again... After doing it a few times it becomes a smooth motion, easier done than said. If you add slugs, technique is less important and I find I can leave my left foot in the cockpit and just place my right foot on the side deck to reach the halyard on the mast and haul away. Alternatively, you could run the halyard back to the cockpit, but I prefer mine at the mast as it is convenient there if reefing the sail. The slugs all stack up just above the gooseneck. With such a short foot, one long sail tie isn't so bad if you tie it on using the "log hitch". I generally use two, sometimes three, ties though. If the sail doesn't slide easily in the groove, you can get a special dry lubricant made especially for the purpose, such as McLube. Can make a big difference. I use that once or twice a season. A can has lasted me a few years now. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2/1471 - Release Date: 5/28/2008 5:33 PM _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

1 0

Re: M_Boats: Sail Feeders re: Steve Sweeney's mail.
by Paint4Real＠aol.com 30 May '08

30 May '08

In a message dated 5/29/08 10:51:31 PM, GILASAILR(a)aol.com writes: > http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270807.asp > Again, to all who posted or wrote, thanks. I have the Sailfeeder guide ordered and on its way to me. Pricey, yes, but less so than going with conversion to slides. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

1 0

Re: M_Boats: Mainsail pre-feeder
by Paint4Real＠aol.com 30 May '08

30 May '08

In a message dated 5/29/08 10:53:46 PM, leyake(a)juno.com writes: > http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearchView?catalo > gId=10001&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&keyword=mainsail+feeder&Ntt=mainsail+f > eeder&N=377+710&y=8&x=32&storeId=10001&Ntk=Primary+Search&ddkey=SiteSearc > h > Thanks to you also. I searched West and didn't find this. It isn't what I had, quite, but is an improvement, as there's nothing to bounce off the cabin roof and into the green. Yes, it's pricey . . . my take on that these days is always to amortize it over the next ten years during which I want the mainsail to hoist without a snag, from my cockpit position (since I usually do sail alone, mostly because I like it that way). So would I pay $7 a year to have that benefit? No contest. ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

1 0

Re: M_Boats: Sail Feeders re: Steve Sweeney's mail.
by Paint4Real＠aol.com 30 May '08

30 May '08

In a message dated 5/29/08 10:51:31 PM, GILASAILR(a)aol.com writes: > http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d273000/e270807.asp > Thanks muchly. The "Spinlock Sailfeeder" looks like the closest approximation to what I had (and lost by proxy). They don't give those things away, do they? Who do I talk to about getting a cut of that action? [ . . . getting VISA out of the wallet . . . linking up on my ancient dial-up . . .] ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

1 0

Re: M_Boats: Mainsail pre-feeder
by Larry E Yake 30 May '08

30 May '08

Well, I see the link doesn't work, but GO's link has the same product (the Spinlock model) at a better price. On Thu, 29 May 2008 20:52:11 -0700 Larry E Yake <leyake(a)juno.com> writes: > >My solution was a terrific little ball-bearing guide that fit into > the > slot > just below the opening into which you feed the bolt rope. > > The item you describe is still available. Here's the West Marine > link. > I've considered getting one, but they're rather expensive, and I > really > don't have much trouble with my boltrope. > > > http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearchView?catalo > gId=10001&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&keyword=mainsail+feeder&Ntt=mainsail+f > eeder&N=377+710&y=8&x=32&storeId=10001&Ntk=Primary+Search&ddkey=SiteSearc > h > ____________________________________________________________ > Are you safe? Click for quotes on a home security system. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ni3cvXCKIcaZVXB9Rr7Ouv ayqQx9P04X4TcGIrzWxFhw7yR/ > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

1 0