April 2004 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Main sheet traveler
by Larry Yake 23 Apr '04

23 Apr '04

I have a question for you guys with the newer M17's. My 76 model has mid-boom sheeting with the main sheet traveler right behind the companionway hatch. That works fine, except when I have a passenger, in which case I have to reach past their legs to adjust the traveler. I see on the newer M17's the traveler is about 2 feet back which would be handier for the helmsman. My question is, what is the exact measurement back to the traveler, and is that the ideal location? I want to be far enough back to give the passenger some room, but far enough forward to have ample room between the tiller and mainsheet when jumping across the cockpit while tacking or adjusting the jib sheets. Thanks, Larry Yake M17 #200 Tullamore "In a power boat you get there faster. In a sailboat, you're already there."

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Re: M_Boats: Re: Montgomery Admirer
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 23 Apr '04

23 Apr '04

Hi Ron, Wish I owned on right now... I'd be able to give you more info. I work from May through December and take the rest of the year off. I should be sailing but... No Boat! After I got real interested in the M-15 I Emailed Bob Eeg (Owner of Montgomery boats - www.montgomeryboats.com/) and asked him to send a couple of pics to keep me up on getting one. One of the pics is now a screen saver and another is printed out and on the Fridge. This year I'm anxious to get to work to buy the boat for next winter - Maybe I'll go south for the winter at least for a while. See if anyone on the group can offer a test ride somewhere in your area. I know after I get my new M-15, I'll be happy to show her off. Have fun in your search, Bill

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Re: Montgomery Admirer
by PARALAX94＠aol.com 22 Apr '04

22 Apr '04

Thanks Bill and Randy for your input about the M-15. It get's me psyched up! I'll have to check one out. Ron

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Re: more on electric drive on M17--some caveats!
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 22 Apr '04

22 Apr '04

Since this hasn't come up in a while, I would like to add the following caveats to the discussion of electric trolling motors, batteries, and solar panels/chargers: 1) Calculate your total battery capacity at no more than 50% discharge. Even the best batteries will be very short lived if you repeatedly discharge them deeper than 50%. The best batteries for really deep discharge are Gel Cells, but you MUST limit the charging voltage according to manufacturer's specs (usually less than 14.1 volts), or you will ruin them in short order. AGM batteries will also tolerate relatively deep discharges, and some are more tolerant to higher (14.6v) charging voltages. Both Gel and AGM batteries have extremely low self-discharge rates, and can be left for long periods without consequence. 2) Using a smart charger (multi stage such as Xantrex/Statpower True Charge or equivalent) will dramatically extend battery life. If you are using traditional lead-acid batteries, equalize the cells periodically (better chargers h ave this capability) to prolong life. I have found the old-style Ferro-resonant type chargers to be a false economy in that they don't optimize the rate of charge, nor are they smart enough to compensate for temperature, etc. 3) Not all so-called 'Deep Cycle' batteries are. Most sold under this appellation (especially at car parts stores and discount chain stores) are merely slightly better car-type batteries. If you are serious about real capacity and longevity, buy one of the better brands that truly have different plate thickness and composition suited to long, deep discharges. I have found that the cheaper batteries are a false economy when compared to a properly maintained and charged true deep cycle or industrial battery. 4) Forget about charging your trolling motor battery with a solar panel unless you can wait several weeks (or even a month) between use. The Unisolar USF-11(of which I have on both my M15 and my Flicka) is a great panel, but you have to look at the numbers. Consulting the solar irradiance chart in the Unisolar manual, most of us in the northern half of the country aren't going to see more than 16 amp-hours/week TOTAL from this panel. Those in the sunny south will be lucky to get 20 amp-hours/week. You then need to multiply these figures by 0.75 to account for average efficiency lost to the battery/wiring/controls to get a realistic net number. Let's say you start with a fully charged group 31 battery with a total rated capacity of 105 AH. If you use the average electric trolling motor for 1.5 hours in a given day (at max output), you will deplete approximately 50-60 amp-hours. The Unisolar panel, under *ideal* conditions, produces 0.62 amp-hours. Derate this by 0.25, and you have about 0.465 AH. Even assuming five productive sun-hours per day (that is about the max you can expect, on average), you are talking 20 to 25 days to replace a 50% depth-of-discharge. I think you can see the trend. Let's say you use the trolling motor for just 20 minutes a day to get to and from your dock. It would still take the USF-11 more than five days to replace the energy used in one day. This is not to say that the panel is useless in this mix. They are great for topping-up small discharges, and for holding a battery at float (I use a charge regulator on mine now--note that float voltage for Gels and some AGM's is different from normal lead-acid type). The ideal (as I see it) is a good multistage charger with a solar panel for float. On the M15, I use my Unisolar to replace very shallow discharges while cruising from either an LED interior light or Davis 'Mega' anchor light. 5) If you are going to mount your battery (batteries) forward, and have your trolling motor on the stern, you are going to need some large gauge wire to stay within the recommended 3% voltage drop limits. Assuming a 20' run on an M17 (after snaking around bulkheads, etc.), you would want at least #6 wire for a trolling motor with a maximum draw of 40 amps, and #4 wire (smaller number is bigger wire) for one drawing a maximum of 50 amps. That's some pretty big (and expensive) wire!! Consider mounting your battery very close to the motor!! 6) If your motive is to save weight and or expense, a small, efficient four-stroke outboard may well prove the better choice. I agree that for small lake sailing, or for occasional use, the electric has its place, but I would argue that it is entirely inappropriate for a boat used for cruising, or when shore-side power is not available for overnight charges via a good AC battery charger. Sincerely, Scott Grometer M15 #478 'bebe' PSC Flicka (unnamed)

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Re: M_Boats: Teak finish
by IDCLLC＠aol.com 22 Apr '04

22 Apr '04

Sounds like a plan to me! Steve In a message dated 4/21/2004 10:54:40 PM Central Standard Time, burmeyer(a)sbcglobal.net writes: Thanks for the tip about Cetol, Steve, but I have used Cetol before and it turns the wood really orange. Cetol Light is better (IMHO) but that gives a kind of honey finish on teak. Guess what I'll do is just use a few scraps (teak scraps! an oxymoron?) and test out oils until I find the right match. Thanks again for the help George

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Re: M_Boats: Teak finish
by IDCLLC＠aol.com 22 Apr '04

22 Apr '04

See if you can borrow a dollop of Cetol, which definitely gives a red or red-orange cast. Cetol is tough and easy to maintain. It's possible that your teak is refinished with it. Steve Tyree, P-15 #2098 "Amy Ann" In a message dated 4/19/2004 11:46:38 PM Central Standard Time, burmeyer(a)sbcglobal.net writes: My problem is finishing the new rails to as close a match as possible to the teak already on the boat which is oiled (and/or stained?) a nice deep, reddish brown color, and I'm wondering if this sounds like it's the original finish, and if so, has anyone had any success at matching it? Obviously, a perfect match is going to be tough, but I'd like to get as close as possible. Any ideas? Thanks, George M15 #385

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Re: M_Boats: Montgomery admirer
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 22 Apr '04

22 Apr '04

Hi Bob, Sorry I cannot take advantage of a ready to sail away M-15. I'm scheduled to be able to purchase in about 4 months... Five at the latest! Luckily we sail all year in the SF Bay area. Thanks for the picture of her - you're right she is beautiful!!! Bill

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Re: M_Boats: Re: more on electric drive on M17--some caveats!
by Wilsometer＠aol.com 21 Apr '04

21 Apr '04

>nice , but you have a lot of assumptions in these calculations. >My U-1 is kept full charge with my solar panel and the Flex charge 7 amp >model from west marine. >the electric motor is for NO wind conditions, there are those who like >to >sail and use motors as a last resort I am not clear on what constitutes "a lot" in the example provided. The only assumptions I made in these calculations were battery size (largest practical) and current draw of an average electric trolling motor (an average of typical models at high speed setting). The rest of the data regarding panel output, daily or weekly totals, solar radiation gain by region, and efficiency loss is straight from the Unisolar USF-11 owner's manual. My real-world experience with both the USF-11 panel and the battery size in the example corroborate the sample calculations. The point is, a panel with a *maximum* output 0.62 amp-hours will always take somewhat *more* than one hour to replace 0.62 amperes consumed. If your trolling motor draws 10 amp-hours at a lower setting, and you use it for one hour, replacing the lost power with the panel in question would take more than 16 hours. Adjust the numbers to suit your combination of panel, motor, and battery. I too prefer sailing to motoring. Some of us sail in areas where the wind is not consistent, seas are large, there is no AC power available for battery charging, there is significant cloud cover for most of the year, or sail distances or durations where having more than a couple of hours of one-time auxiliary capacity is either desirable or requisite for safety. My motive for taking the time to write this was to share my direct experience, and to correct the possible misconception that the Unisolar panel would be sufficient to recover batteries deeply discharged by use of an electric trolling motor within a reasonable time frame, and without the use of an auxiliary AC charger. I also hoped to clarify relative battery capacities for the purpose of estimating the reasonable range obtainable with an electric motor. To reiterate, the Unisolar (or other small panels) are great at their intended purpose--namely *maintenance* charging, and as I stated before, both electric trolling motors and small solar panels have their proper application. I think it is wise to know in advance the capacities and limitations of such equipment. Scott M15 #478 'bebe' Pacific Seacraft Flicka (unnamed)

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Re: M_Boats: Montgomery admirer
by Randy Watkins 21 Apr '04

21 Apr '04

Hi Ron, I don't think you'll be disappointed in the M15. I'm on my 2nd one. I did own a P15 for a while and enjoyed it. I beach the M15 about as much as I did the P15 so the small keel really isn't much of an issue. The cockpit on the M15 is larger and very comfortable. I sail with the Texas Potter club on a regular basis and the M15 is usually a bit faster and very stable boat. You don't worry about it flipping over. Hope this helps a little. Regards, Randy W. M15 "Becca Anne" and Ranger 20. >>> PARALAX94(a)aol.com 04/20/04 9:13 PM >>> Hi all! I currently sail a WWP 15, but have been interested in the Montgomery's. I'd like an M-17, but my budget would better afford the M-15. Have any of you had experience with the WWP 15, that could compare it to the M-15? One of the things that I find really attractive about the Montgomery's is the weighted keel. Thanks, Ron P. WWP 15 Ogden, Utah _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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Re: M_Boats: Re: more on electric drive on M17--some caveats!
by chbenneck＠juno.com 21 Apr '04

21 Apr '04

Hi Bill and Gang, All that mention of microwaves, coffee makers, toasters, etc. brought to mind an experience I had at a truck stop. The Admirable and I stopped to get fuel and a cup of coffee, and then wandered through the truck "goodies" store. We were amazed. Truckers, living in the cabs of their 18 wheeler tractors need things in small quantities. Not only that, but they also need (or would like to have) all the usual appliances that are found in the home. We were amazed to find 12 volt fans, hair dryers, coffee makers, and I don't remember what all else. They also had everything packaged in small quantities: food, laundry detergent; etc. For some strange reason, all the things that are standard in the trucker's world are not being sold in the sailing world. So for an eye-opener, the next time you pass a large truck stop, go in there and check out the store and investigate what they have. It might solve a lot of sailor's problems (aside from 12 volt devices). It's the age old problem. You get too soon old and too late smart. ..........and why is there no cross connection between groups with similar problems? Connie

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