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Re: re : mcdonalds
by Arthur Gadney 12 Jul '02

12 Jul '02

Hello. >Possibly this love-hate relationship is an inescapable mechanism concerning >the relation between "smaller" countries and a country which dominates the >smaller ones, be it culturally, technically, economically and >military/politically. How not to admire American music, literature, art, >fashion of the last half century? How not to buy American hi tech or to >realize the American power in the political sphere? But at the same time >this hurts. Hm, I think this comes dangerously close to the "inferiority complex" theory that somehow "we" envy USA because they are so good and succesfull. I think this really only explains a very minor part of the anti-American (I actually don't like this expression) feeling around the world. And to repeat my point, I do actually think that USA is one of the countries in the world which people from the outside have the most nuanced views of, and generally there is a very broad understanding that everything is not "George Bush and MacDonalds" as Steve put it (Try to compare it with how people view Japan for example...) Bye, _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Re: re : mcdonalds
by Arthur Gadney 12 Jul '02

12 Jul '02

Hello, I've just been reading throught the recent postings of Patrice and Steve, and found them to be quite interesting, but also painfully obvious (feel free to disagree). >I've been quietly sitting here on my hands for days now, quietly wishing >that >a small handful of smug, sanctimonious individuals would just fucking TRY >to >remember once in a while that George W. Bush is not synonymous with >"America" >and imperialism/colonialism is not synonymous with "America" and McDonald's >is >not synonymous with "America." > >Still, the monolithic view from the outside persists. I think the last line is utterly false and that most people do infact agree with Steve's first paragraph. This has certainly been my experience in dealing with people from around the world and especially when travelling through Europe, which is what I have done most. And besides that, I think the statistics back it up. What I meet everywhere, is the exact same love-hate relationship that Steve himself seems to have. When asked, the youth in Europe state very claerly that the one country in the world where they would most like to live next to their own is USA. By a long shot. But a the same time, they are intensly skeptical about the same things as Steve are. >But to the next person who wants to flog "us" with 'Fast Food Nation' (a >brutally fascinating book, BTW), please try to remind yourself that >wherever >you are, chances are good that someone near you chose to apply for that >McDonald's franchise instead of opening a quaint little local eatery, >capice? >When I went to Istanbul two years ago, it was a local who insisted on >treating >me to a Quarter Pounder, not vice versa. And he wasn't being condescending: >it >was where he wanted to eat. Gee, why does this discussion always boil down to burgers!? Cheers. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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re : mcdonalds
by > chromasoom audio visuele communicatie > 12 Jul '02

12 Jul '02

> > I think the Belgians invented French Fries?! > Well, damn yes we did! From the years 1600 on. First the poor people fried little fish they caught. In the winter the water froze, and people couldn't catch fish. As a replacement they cut potatoes in the shape of fish and fried them. The Belgian fries were born! And we eat them with mayonnaise! Eating mcd in France, because u can't find any better/cheaper? How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture... JaWe

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A (fairly) newcomer to Zorn wants to know what else is worthwile.
by matt 12 Jul '02

12 Jul '02

That subject makes no sense. Okay, I got into Zorn last October when I picked up the first Naked City record on a recomendation. It blew me away. Since then I've been buying a bunch of Zorn and most have blown me away (Big Gundown, Live in Sevilla, Ganryu Island, Parachute Years boxset, Locus Solus) and some have left me cold (IAO, Taboo and Exile, the Gift (even though it is a beautiful record)). I seem to over all perfer Zorn's early works to his more recent works (except for Masada) and I basically want to know what else of Zorn's later and middle works I would enjoy. thanks, matt.

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McDonalds
by SonataPathetique＠aol.com 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

I wish I never mentioned McDonald's or European food. I had no idea the dialogue would never end.

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Re: re : mcdonalds
by Steve Smith 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

God (or whoever) bless Patrice Roussel. I've been quietly sitting here on my hands for days now, quietly wishing that a small handful of smug, sanctimonious individuals would just fucking TRY to remember once in a while that George W. Bush is not synonymous with "America" and imperialism/colonialism is not synonymous with "America" and McDonald's is not synonymous with "America." Still, the monolithic view from the outside persists. Dig: Not every one of us is proud of what some of us have done or said or committed on behalf of the rest of us here some or even most of the time, most of us still recognize that in the mean time we have a lot to be proud of, including William Faulkner and George Herriman and Jack Kirby and John Coltrane and Harry Partch and Los Bros Hernandez and Robert Johnson and John Zorn and Philip Roth and a whole lot of other things Patrice and Skip already mentioned and -- at least for the moment -- the right for all of us who actually live here to complain openly about just what it is WE don't like about our country, thank you very much, and to take action when action is warranted. And lo and behold, while I sit and steam and sulk, it takes a certafiably cynical Frenchman like Patrice to finally step up and give voice to that which I was too pissed off and offended to accurately verbalize. So thanks, Patrice. I honestly feel a lot better now. But to the next person who wants to flog "us" with 'Fast Food Nation' (a brutally fascinating book, BTW), please try to remind yourself that wherever you are, chances are good that someone near you chose to apply for that McDonald's franchise instead of opening a quaint little local eatery, capice? When I went to Istanbul two years ago, it was a local who insisted on treating me to a Quarter Pounder, not vice versa. And he wasn't being condescending: it was where he wanted to eat. If I lose "cool" points on the Zornlist because of this tirade, I could fucking care less. I support Greenpeace and I support the ACLU and I voted vehemently against both Bushes even though -- or maybe because -- I grew up in Texas, which often views itself as less a state and more an occupied territory. I think Cheney's one of the most evil and mendacious plutocrats ever installed in Washington, D.C., and right now I'm looking to help organize some kind of resistance to the Patriot Act and other Ashcroft transgressions against our freedom and civil liberties -- and yet I still say that this seemingly shallow little mongrel un-culture has a lot more going for it than most lapsed empires of the world care to admit. And when it comes to Islamic fundmentalism, America may be a leading target for its meddling, but every advanced culture in the world that runs on imported petroleum -- allowing the few to become obscenely wealthy in the presence and at the expense of the many -- shares in that blame. End of screed. Steve Smith ssmith36(a)sprynet.com NP - Anthony Braxton, "Composition 286 (Tentet)," 'Six Compositions (GTM) 2001' (Rastascan/Limited Sedition/Barely Auditable)

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Texas Medley
by Antonio Martín 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

Si veis que me pongo pesado con esto me lo decis, pero es que no lo puedo evitar. Estoy negociando con un americano (norteamericano, mejor dicho) unos discos, entre ellos los dos conciertos completos del 3 y 4 de marzo del 88 en Chicago. Bien, como se hablÃ³ del Texas Medley hace un tiempo, pues viendo los titulos Ã©ste tema aparece en el concierto del dÃa 3 de la misma forma que se volviÃ³ a interpretar al dÃa siguiente. La versiÃ³n que aparece en el Apocrypha es la del 13 de marzo en Springfield (MA). El sonido parece ser excelente (seguro que mejor que la del Apocrypha) y creo que incluye una pista con una entrevista a Zappa. En total son 4 cds. Bien, si los consigo ya os lo dirÃ©, porque me parece esa gira excelente, ya conoceis la trilogÃa de la gira del 88, quÃ© os voy a contar ahora, y aquella superbanda. Os incluyo los titulos: 3-Mar 1988, Auditorium Theatre, Chicago, IL 130 min, Aud, A- w/ Mr. Sting The Black Page #2, We're Turning Again, Alien Orifice, Any Kind Of Pain, Why Don't You Like Me? (BTHW), Texas Motel Medley, When The Lie's So Big, Jesus Thinks You're A Jerk, Sofa, Stolen Moments, Murder By Numbers (BTHW), Ain't Got No Heart, Love Of My Life, City Of Tiny Lights, Pound For A Brown, Stairway To Heaven, Whippin' Post, I Am The Walrus, Catholic Girls, Crew Slut (YCDTOSA6), Strictly Genteel 4-Mar 1988, Auditorium Theatre, Chicago, IL 135 min, Aud, A Stinkfoot, When The Lie's So Big, Planet Of The Baritone Women, Any Kind Of Pain, What's New In Baltimore?, Stick Together, My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama, Willie The Pimp, Montana, Inca Roads, Zoot Allures, Texas Motel Medley, What Kind Of Girl? Peaches En Regalia, Torture Never Stops Medley, Yo Cats, Packard Goose, Jesus Thinks You're A Jerk, The Illinois Enema Bandit Como veis (aunque no lo he verificado en los creditos de los discos) 3 temas del concierto del dÃa 3 de marzo se utilizaron para los discos Broadway the Hardway y el volumen 6 del You CanÂ´t Do That.... Saludos

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Re: re : mcdonalds
by Dgasque＠aol.com 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, jzitt(a)metatronpress.com writes: > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:48:38 +0200 > "> chromasoom audio visuele communicatie >" <mail(a)chromasoom.be> wrote: > > > How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture... > > How odd, you really seem to have no clue as to American culture. There > are actually a wide variety of American food cultures and regional > cooking styles. A moment of actual research and thought might avoid > foolish comments such as that. He definitely needs to visit South Carolina. Our "meat 'n three" resturants and our barbeque buffets are cuisines untouched by anyone else. -- =dg=

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Benoit Viguier
by Tim Blechmann 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

sorry for using this group for this: Benoit Viguier, if you recieve this message, please contact me privately. if anyone has his email address, please let me know. thanks for your time... Tim mailto:TimBlechmann@gmx.net ICQ: 96771783 http://www.nyds-exp-discogs.tk -- The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!" Jack Kerouac

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Re: mcdonald's
by thesubtlebody 11 Jul '02

11 Jul '02

S.Smith wrote: > I've been quietly sitting here on my hands for days > now, quietly wishing that > a small handful of smug, sanctimonious individuals > would just fucking TRY to > remember once in a while that George W. Bush is not > synonymous with "America" > and imperialism/colonialism is not synonymous with > "America" and McDonald's is > not synonymous with "America." But that is what we're working with/against now---those modes of commerce/politics are basically what dominant in the way power works in our country. Aside from the rhetorical excesses of the inevitable bilious minority, it's worth noting that for at least those of us who are Americans, we are in a better position to criticize the shortcomings of our own culture than someone else's, and it needs to be done. There are more people spraining shoulders congrtulating themselves on living in this wealthy unstoppable juggernaut of a nation. Dubya IS synonymous with America to billions of people, and---quite unfortunately---American citizens are responsible to one degree or another for what happens while he presides over our government (the same applies in a less iconic way to our legislative bodies in general). There's nothing smug about pointing out that America does whatever it wants to (this driven home by two hardly-critical political scientists on NPR just yesterday evening), due to its peerless economic and military strength; and what our military, corporate, and political institutions does comes home to roost for normal people, powerless individuals, working people. Questions of tone notwithstanding, how is it "smug" to question what's happening? Because I don't see that happening on TV, and I don't hear it happening on the radio, and public discourse is a wasteland for anything resembling humility or autocritical dialogue. > But to the next person who wants to flog "us" with > 'Fast Food Nation' (a > brutally fascinating book, BTW), Please. Myself and one other listmember mentioned the book, and not in a sanctimonious fashion. Our mentioning it might, however, qualify as a public service. It's an amazing, essential, terribly polemical read. I still eat flesh without losing sleep, but FAST FOOD NATION is a powerful reminder of how diets are molded for profit on a massive level, with serious impacts that will roost on our grandkids' heads. After reading that book, the "uncritical acceptance" (paraphrasing Patrice) of McD's by European youth starts to take on the patina of masochism exploited, or novelty used as fulcrum...kind of like trading everything for trinkets and beads because of one's own "naive" sense of value. Some of the things America invents, or perfects, also yield disastrous consequences here first; America would beat the world to the "finish line", at which...the abyss. So here some of us come running, back toward the world, saying, "Turn back! There's NOTHING THERE!" >...please try to > remind yourself that wherever > you are, chances are good that someone near you > chose to apply for that > McDonald's franchise instead of opening a quaint > little local eatery, capice? Oh, I'm reminded wherever I go, as are many of my friends in Europe, China, and elsewhere. Many people think this fact, this choice, is a crying shame, and that the cards are increasingly stacked against the "new", unfranchised restaurants from the get-go. >...and yet I > still say that this > seemingly shallow little mongrel un-culture has a > lot more going for it than > most lapsed empires of the world care to admit. I am not a big fan of the American philosopher Richard Rorty's work, but it is interesting, and more significantly, Rorty seems to position American ideas prominently among both analytic (Anglo-American) and continental European thought, shaping a bold and socially conscious new political philosophy. He's one of many who trace lineages of brilliance, improvisation, and contribution back through America's history, and he does so without appearing to feed the fires of jingoism. I don't think we need to be apologists for the non-choice and no-future being peddled by fast food culture, in order to assert that America is a remarkable country with great achievements. -----s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com

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