November 2018 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Duckpunts and Flickas
by Rusty Knorr 23 Nov '18

23 Nov '18

Hi John, Oh, the Duckpunt! ❤️❤️❤️ I love that ugly little boat so much. It truly is a boat unlike any other, that can do what no other boat can do, and that will challenge your sailing skills, rewarding you when you sail well and punishing you for your mistakes. I think every sailor out there should build one! Here is a playlist of Duckpunt videos, enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0BwhVMcplm5TN40_DInR5rpQ_c2Zt7TG As for my beloved Flicka, I had it moored at the Port of Edmonds, where I lived on it for 6 or 7 years. I’d still be living on it if I hadn’t gone and fallen in love and gotten married! One of the finest designs ever created, I cried when it sailed away from me with its new owner. Perhaps someday I’ll be in a position to own another one. Until then I’ll happily sail my new Monty everywhere that I can! I hope to see you up here soon. Fair winds, Rusty > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:01:26 -0800 > From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: New purchase > Message-ID: <6871026c-6d8d-5bb4-8e31-93b0225570f4(a)eco-living.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Welcome Rusty, > > A duck punt on Green Lake eh? That's pretty good urban sailing. More > like a goose punt in those waters (I lived in Seattle for seven years, > around the time a lot of geese were ceasing to migrate and just hanging > around all year on the nicely groomed "goose restaurants" of city park > lawns). > > Where was your Flicka berthed? I may have seen it while paddling about > the Seattle waters. I had a crush on Flickas for a while. Still think > they're great, but not very portable. > > See you up there next season in my M17 perhaps... > > cheers, > John > >>

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turkey day greetings to the group
by brad kurlancheek 22 Nov '18

22 Nov '18

> > Happy Thanksgiving to All, and many thanks to everyone for the useful and pertinent information on Monty's others have posted here. It makes owning one twice the joy. - Brad > > >

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New purchase
by Rusty Knorr 22 Nov '18

22 Nov '18

Hello all, After selling my first M-15 so I could liveaboard on my Flicka 20, and subsequently selling it and swallowing the hook, I’ve recently purchased another M-15, hull number 235 “Vanilla”. Looking forward to enjoying small boat cruising on Puget Sound and the Salish Sea, and being a member of this great group again! Cheers, Rusty Knorr www.rustyknorr.weebly.com

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Another M/15/17 Difference
by Alex Conley 21 Nov '18

21 Nov '18

Here's another variable for the 15/17 comparison shoppers out there to consider. I recently bought an M15, and found it in great shape for a 32 year old boat. When I got home and saw how easily it backed through a normal sized garage door and settled into my shop, I realized why it looks so good (besides Jerry's build quality!) is that, like many other M15s, it's always been under cover. Were it a 17, it'd be sitting outside next to the shop while I got around to fitting up a decent cover... Plus every time I'm puttering the shop I get to look at her and daydream of voyages to come. Can't wait to get this boat out on the water! Alex Conley

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Re: M_Boats: Reefing
by Lawrence Winiarski 17 Nov '18

17 Nov '18

It's fairly easy to reach the higher jib clew from the m15, so It's not _so_ bad to just move the soft shackle that I have on the clew, but being as when you need to do it, there is usually plenty of excitement. If I let go of the bottom clew cringle,then it might get away from me before I can reattach at the top clew cringle and start flapping around wildly adding to the drama. You are making me think....I like the idea of having the jib sheets always attached and just released from the bottom cringle. From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com> To: lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 5:22 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Reefing Moving the jib sheets between leech cringles is not a problem from a forward hatch. I am not familiar with the M15 deck layout and spacing. It would seem possible to simply crawl forward to the mast. Just an idea here, form a continuous loop of line that runs through the upper cringle yet reaches to the bottom cringle when the jib sheets are there . When it comes time to reef, the loop you have run and which is held to the bottom cringle area with velcro wrapped around part of it and the other velcro stitched to the lower cringle area would allow you to reach that lower cringle area with the jib sheets but the pull of that loop will transfer to the upper cringle so your jib sheets will be controlling the sail shape and position from the upper cringle. Think about it. Fun stuff.Fair winds,Tom B On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 2:37 PM Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Unfortunately I have an m15, so I don't have the front hatch, but I can see that would make things alot nicer. The m15 isdefinitely tender up by the pulpit, I really like the idea of the laced bundler-furler Brilliant. That's going to make my life easer for sure. Thank you How do you attach/reattach your sheets to the new higher clew of the jib? From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi(a)gmail.com> To: lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Reefing Lawrence,Being able to reef a jib is very handy if you can't afford a roller furler. I changed the swing on my Monty forward hatch so it opens facing forward instead of backward. I also installed a barrel bolt on the inside of it so it would not fly open on the highway. Jerry thought about that with the original hinge placement to prevent that. Anyway, I also have some velcro inside the hatch cover so IF I forget to shoot the barrel bolt before I take off down the highway it will still stay closed. I usually moore my boat now so this has not been too much of a concern. Back to the jib reefing, with a forward opening hatch you can stand on the v-berth and pretty much reach everyplace you will have to on the foredeck and still have your legs inside the boat. The furling system I installed on any jib I may want to shorten is a zig-zag lacing with one line running through grommets set in the sail such that by standing in the hatch I can pull in on a line which runs from the jib tack to a second clew cringle mounted about a quarter the way up the leech which will gather the foot of the sail into a bundle. I then use a sail mounted cleat near that second clew cringle to belay off the gathered line. the tack position stays the same and you end up with a smaller "yankee cut" jib. The jib sheets are all within easy reach of the forward hatch position as well. You will have to move the snatch blocks on the jib sheets further aft but this can be done from further back in the boat if not from the forward hatch area. Try doing a mock up on a calm day with canvas clamps from a Walmart camping department to see if it works for you.Fair winds,Tom B, Monty 17 AS-IS On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:37 PM Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> wrote: My headsail has reefing ties (at the bottom) so I can reef it like the mainsail, but I don't really know the proper way to do it. My method has been to lower the head sail, go up front and move the snap shackle to the higher front tack cringle, siton the cabin and move the soft shackle and jib sheets at the clew end to the new higher clew cringle, then roll up the leftover with the reefing ties. The problems are that the bow is a little bouncy usually, and all the fiddling up front is kind of time consuming. Not sure how to do it economically with a storm jib either...Seems like a lot to get done while the boat is bucking around. I'd like to have a better method. One idea would be to have a separate downhaul on the jib tack reefing cringle, so I couldpull it down from the cabin, like the jib downhaul. That would eliminate getting all the way up to the pulpit. Not sure what the best way to deal with the jib sheets would be. From: Jon Barber <brbrbarber(a)gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 10:06 AM Subject: M_Boats: Reefing I tried the little twin horn reefing hook from Duckworks. The reef crinkle would fall off at the most inconvenient times. I bought another from West Marine and mounted it on the mast. Much better. It is more than ahook, once the crinkle is in place it can't come off. I've never timed myself reefing as being a single handed sailor both hands are full. One tactic I employ it to reef at the dock. If needed I will shake out reefs after assessing conditions. A further concern is the head sail. I see far to many of my sailing friends furl their head sails when the wind gets sporting, instead of reefing or double reefing the main. The next step is to fire the motor as without a head sail, these small pocket cruisers do not go to windward. Moving jib fair leads aft will flatten and depower the head sail. I recently sailed on the San Joaquin river into a 25 kt headwind, with gusting to 35. My 17 heeled and occasionally rounded up but did so in a predictable way. Shipped 1/2 g water (first time). Realized securing all openings a primary concern as I was unable to reach boards from the helm. Over my head, oh yes. Beyond the ability of my boat? Not even close . Everytime I sail in sporting conditions I learn more about my abilities and about the abilities of my boat. Thanks Jerry! 45 years young and still a great boat. Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 11:22 AM < montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > montgomery_boats-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 15M v 17M (Jazzy) > 2. Re: 15M v 17M (Peter Zimowsky) > 3. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 4. Re: 15M v 17M (Lawrence Winiarski) > 5. Re: 15M v 17M (Thomas Howe) > 6. Re: 15M v 17M (Lawrence Winiarski) > 7. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 8. Re: 15M v 17M (Thomas Howe) > 9. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 10. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 11. Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) (John Schinnerer) > 12. Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) (John Schinnerer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:21:42 -0800 > From: Jazzy <jazzydaze(a)gmail.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAHJ-33HA8cTe0RgQ-oRJe-r5bSm0HH3d7oPMyR7OXc_LkgSmcA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I just went out in a small vessel warning, severe weather watch in my 17 on > purpose for experience. Double reef and furled genny..was a hoot! Tested > me but the boat only messed up when I did and it saved me before I even > knew twice. Stout little boats. That's why I hunted one down. Sail smart > and itll have your back. A peaceful anchor on the lee shore of blake > island, puget sound , and more of the same home. All good and never felt > under boated. > > El Nino > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 9:17 PM Daniel Rich <danielgrich(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > Ah, I remember it well! Fun sailing with you back then. I had a baggy jib > > I think. When I replaced the sails, the pointing improved. Still though, > > with the current and the waves, still not sure we woulda made it without > > motoring! > > > > Daniel > > > > > On Nov 12, 2018, at 9:12 PM, John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > > wrote: > > > > > > I was in some 20+ knots, gusting higher, with steep wind chop, in an > M15 > > (Daniel Rich's) on Tomales Bay (CA) years ago, and we were trying to tack > > back upwind to the launch ramp. We couldn't make much if any headway, and > > ended up dropping sails and motoring. After we sorted that out, I noticed > > that at no point in trying to tack or giving up and dropping sails could > I > > recall being worried about the seaworthiness of the boat in those > > conditions. I was nervous, but not about the boat. We barely even got > > splashed. > > > > > > cheers, > > > John > > > > > > On 11/12/2018 03:42 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > > >> Thanks this should give me more confidence! > > >> Pete > > >> Sent from my iPhone > > >>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 15:52, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hi Pete, > > >>> > > >>> One of the M-15 owners sailed his M15 from San Diego to Hawaii, and > > recently wrote a book about his trip. He was 22 years old and sailed > solo. > > >>> > > >>> He does an excellent bit of writing; talking about his preparations; > > his initial departure; then the growing thought, "what have I gotten > myself > > into....?" and then the slow but steady growth of his feeling that it's > > really doable as the days pass / bad weather passes / and slowly he nears > > his destination, Hawaii. > > >>> > > >>> It was a 38 day ocean crossing in 1982. > > >>> > > >>> The book title is: "A Little Breeze to the West" by Michael Scott > > Mann ISBN No.9781517572242 > > >>> > > >>> It's great read. > > >>> > > >>> Ciao, > > >>> > > >>> Connie > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> On 11/12/2018 2:18 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > > >>>> Hi Brad: > > >>>> I really do love my M15 and it fits the bill for almost anything. I > > just worry about cruising in big water with it. I worry that I might be > > fool hearty going in some of the places I want to go with the bigger > boats. > > >>>> Being a whitewater river rafter and dory man, I?m very cautious > > >>>> Thanks for the discussion. > > >>>> Good winds > > >>>> Pete > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:57, brad kurlancheek < > bkurlancheek(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Pete, > > >>>>> I own a 15M only - but I can tell how much a difference it was > > >>>>> for me going from my 13 foot microcruiser to the M15. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In my 13, almost everything is within arm's reach. JUst a slight > > stretch > > >>>>> in one direction or the other, and voila, I had what I needed or > > could do > > >>>>> what I needed. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> And when I sit one one cockpit side, it's easy for me to rest my > > heels on > > >>>>> the edge > > >>>>> of the seat of the other side, and lean back a tad and be happy as > a > > clam. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Not so with the M15. I found that to do almost anything, required a > > whole > > >>>>> step > > >>>>> one way or the other, and then the stretch. In other words, I had > to > > go get > > >>>>> it (poor me!). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> And when sitting on one cockpit bench my feet did not so > comfortably > > find a > > >>>>> resting > > >>>>> place right on the other (i'm 5'9, or used to be). They could get > > there, > > >>>>> but it doesn't seem > > >>>>> as comfortable. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes, of course, I much enjoy the lavish cabin space (lavish to me > at > > least) > > >>>>> in the M15 as > > >>>>> compared to my 13 footer, and appreciate the added storage space, > > stability > > >>>>> and control immensely. > > >>>>> It's just that added step or additional reach required to get > things > > done, > > >>>>> that sometimes chaffs on me. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> My point I guess, is, that with regards to your going from a 15 to > > 17, > > >>>>> anticipate > > >>>>> that for every movement > > >>>>> you used to make in the M15 to accomplish something, doing the same > > in an > > >>>>> M17, will require even a little > > >>>>> bit more movement than what you're used to. Good luck. - Brad > > > > > > -- > > > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > - Eco-Living - > > > Whole Systems Design Services > > > People - Place - Learning - Integration > > > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > > > http://eco-living.net > > > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:47:37 -0700 > From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: <3B56D6DA-8E31-4780-81D1-BE704ED3F2C3(a)mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp > is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the > seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > Thanks, > > Pete Winter Sky > (Zimowsky) > M377 > outdoors writer and photographer > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > > > "Be with Tahlequah" > Talhequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of > 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues > to the world to help us save your Orca family. > > > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2018, at 1:21 AM, Jazzy <jazzydaze(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I just went out in a small vessel warning, severe weather watch in my 17 > on > > purpose for experience. Double reef and furled genny..was a hoot! > Tested > > me but the boat only messed up when I did and it saved me before I even > > knew twice. Stout little boats. That's why I hunted one down. Sail > smart > > and itll have your back. A peaceful anchor on the lee shore of blake > > island, puget sound , and more of the same home. All good and never felt > > under boated. > > > > El Nino > > > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 9:17 PM Daniel Rich <danielgrich(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > >> Ah, I remember it well! Fun sailing with you back then. I had a baggy > jib > >> I think. When I replaced the sails, the pointing improved. Still though, > >> with the current and the waves, still not sure we woulda made it without > >> motoring! > >> > >> Daniel > >> > >>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 9:12 PM, John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I was in some 20+ knots, gusting higher, with steep wind chop, in an > M15 > >> (Daniel Rich's) on Tomales Bay (CA) years ago, and we were trying to > tack > >> back upwind to the launch ramp. We couldn't make much if any headway, > and > >> ended up dropping sails and motoring. After we sorted that out, I > noticed > >> that at no point in trying to tack or giving up and dropping sails > could I > >> recall being worried about the seaworthiness of the boat in those > >> conditions. I was nervous, but not about the boat. We barely even got > >> splashed. > >>> > >>> cheers, > >>> John > >>> > >>> On 11/12/2018 03:42 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > >>>> Thanks this should give me more confidence! > >>>> Pete > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 15:52, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck(a)gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Pete, > >>>>> > >>>>> One of the M-15 owners sailed his M15 from San Diego to Hawaii, and > >> recently wrote a book about his trip. He was 22 years old and sailed > solo. > >>>>> > >>>>> He does an excellent bit of writing; talking about his preparations; > >> his initial departure; then the growing thought, "what have I gotten > myself > >> into....?" and then the slow but steady growth of his feeling that it's > >> really doable as the days pass / bad weather passes / and slowly he > nears > >> his destination, Hawaii. > >>>>> > >>>>> It was a 38 day ocean crossing in 1982. > >>>>> > >>>>> The book title is: "A Little Breeze to the West" by Michael Scott > >> Mann ISBN No.9781517572242 > >>>>> > >>>>> It's great read. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ciao, > >>>>> > >>>>> Connie > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/12/2018 2:18 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Brad: > >>>>>> I really do love my M15 and it fits the bill for almost anything. I > >> just worry about cruising in big water with it. I worry that I might be > >> fool hearty going in some of the places I want to go with the bigger > boats. > >>>>>> Being a whitewater river rafter and dory man, I?m very cautious > >>>>>> Thanks for the discussion. > >>>>>> Good winds > >>>>>> Pete > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:57, brad kurlancheek < > bkurlancheek(a)gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Pete, > >>>>>>> I own a 15M only - but I can tell how much a difference it was > >>>>>>> for me going from my 13 foot microcruiser to the M15. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In my 13, almost everything is within arm's reach. JUst a slight > >> stretch > >>>>>>> in one direction or the other, and voila, I had what I needed or > >> could do > >>>>>>> what I needed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And when I sit one one cockpit side, it's easy for me to rest my > >> heels on > >>>>>>> the edge > >>>>>>> of the seat of the other side, and lean back a tad and be happy as > a > >> clam. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Not so with the M15. I found that to do almost anything, required a > >> whole > >>>>>>> step > >>>>>>> one way or the other, and then the stretch. In other words, I had > to > >> go get > >>>>>>> it (poor me!). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And when sitting on one cockpit bench my feet did not so > comfortably > >> find a > >>>>>>> resting > >>>>>>> place right on the other (i'm 5'9, or used to be). They could get > >> there, > >>>>>>> but it doesn't seem > >>>>>>> as comfortable. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes, of course, I much enjoy the lavish cabin space (lavish to me > at > >> least) > >>>>>>> in the M15 as > >>>>>>> compared to my 13 footer, and appreciate the added storage space, > >> stability > >>>>>>> and control immensely. > >>>>>>> It's just that added step or additional reach required to get > things > >> done, > >>>>>>> that sometimes chaffs on me. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My point I guess, is, that with regards to your going from a 15 to > >> 17, > >>>>>>> anticipate > >>>>>>> that for every movement > >>>>>>> you used to make in the M15 to accomplish something, doing the same > >> in an > >>>>>>> M17, will require even a little > >>>>>>> bit more movement than what you're used to. Good luck. - Brad > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > >>> -------------------------------------------- > >>> - Eco-Living - > >>> Whole Systems Design Services > >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration > >>> john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > >>> http://eco-living.net > >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:23:40 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>, For and about Montgomery > Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAGjBOA5BiO8a04jC0_yknUWDSAGhRYSO9pAwyLNk74OnxYO+zg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on > a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp > > is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking > the > > seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > Thanks, > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > (Zimowsky) > > M377 > > outdoors writer and photographer > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:50:30 +0000 (UTC) > From: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: <1615424745.1095240.1542297030556(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > I'm a little worried about being overconfident. Obviously any boat > including a giant freighter has limits. I've been in 30mph winds on my > M15 and felt pretty relaxed with everything reefed, but that was on a > reservoir. I might feel > a lot less relaxed in 1/2 the wind but with choppier water/swells. > > > > Obviously any boat has limits, and I'd kind of like to get an idea from > others about what conditions they WOULDN'T go out in in an M15. With or > without passenger. > > > > For example, given this weather report for the next 5 days, what do you > think? > Thur?Fri?Sat?Sun?Mon? > > > PZZ150-151945- > Coastal Waters From Cape Flattery To James Island Out 10 Nm- > > 232 AM PST Thu Nov 15 2018 ...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY FOR HAZARDOUS SEAS IN > EFFECT THROUGH THIS EVENING... > > > TODAY S wind 5 to 15 kt rising to 15 to 20 kt in theafternoon. Wind waves > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 10 ft at 14 seconds. A > slight chance of rain in the morning then a chance of rain in the > > afternoon. > > > TONIGHT S wind 15 to 20 kt becoming W 5 to 15 kt aftermidnight. Wind waves > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 8 ft at 13 seconds. Rain > > likely in the evening then a chance of rain after midnight. > > > FRI N wind 10 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 8 ft at > 11 seconds. A slight chance of showers in the morning. > > > FRI NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 6 > ft at 11 seconds. > > > SAT E wind 10 to 20 kt. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 5 ft at > 13 seconds. > > > AT NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt becoming E 10 to 20 kt after > midnight. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 6 ft at 14 seconds. > > > SUN E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 5 ft. > > > MON E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 3 ft. > > ________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:54:16 +0000 > From: Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CY4PR11MB135212725FB29CCCECF2B4B1AFDC0(a)CY4PR11MB1352.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be > overcomplicated. > > Thomas Howe > McGrew Real Estate > 785-550-1169 > > -----Original Message----- > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> On > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > boat > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on > a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > > ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty > > taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > Thanks, > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > (Zimowsky) > > M377 > > outdoors writer and photographer > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:59:04 +0000 (UTC) > From: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com>, Dave Scobie > <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: <83795892.1106783.1542297544600(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > That's great info.???? Thanks again Dave! > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:24 AM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS.? When the > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam.? As > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll.? This > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy.? Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > line on the boom is simple and works!? Practice practice practice. > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > more than 30% sail reduction.? Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on > a roller furler!? The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp > > is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking > the > > seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > Thanks, > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > (Zimowsky) > > M377 > > outdoors writer and photographer > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:17:15 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAGjBOA4O2333duTA0srpqwLTPFinH5ppnEkDt8vcsyRjMWhKaA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Thomas: > > Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the > process - > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > wrote: > > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be > > overcomplicated. > > > > Thomas Howe > > McGrew Real Estate > > 785-550-1169 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > On > > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats > < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > boat > > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > the > > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As > > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. > This > > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are > prone > > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > > line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > > more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work > on > > a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed > and > > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > > > ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty > > > taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > > (Zimowsky) > > > M377 > > > outdoors writer and photographer > > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:22:40 +0000 > From: Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CY4PR11MB1352277EE1310A1E90EE7239AFDC0(a)CY4PR11MB1352.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does a > tack line attach to? > > Thomas Howe > McGrew Real Estate > 785-550-1169 > > -----Original Message----- > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> On > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > Thomas: > > Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the > process - > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > wrote: > > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > > be overcomplicated. > > > > Thomas Howe > > McGrew Real Estate > > 785-550-1169 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > > Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > boat > > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > > the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > > is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > > beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > > will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > > or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > > are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > complicated. > > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > > clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > > at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > > work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work > > correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > > 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > > > Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > > (Zimowsky) > > > M377 > > > outdoors writer and photographer > > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:26:23 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com>, For and about > Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > <CAGjBOA6wyfY-ss45vjMGXE_= > iaQLsuP2Xga2uAJnv6coxJ2HeA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Lawrence: > > Always go only if you are comfortable! > > The go-no-go decision is always the captain's. > > Decision based on skills, experience and knowledge of the area. > > To gain skills and experience can be done in many ways: challenge self out > of comfort zone, classes and sailing with more experienced skippers. I > learned a lot in the many cruise in company events like Larry Yake's old > MSOG San Juan and Gulf Islands cruise; and small boat races like the old > Wrinkleboat, old HPCC and the Cruiser Challenge. > > One of the best has been sailing and racing with Jerry Montgomery. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:51 AM Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > > > I'm a little worried about being overconfident. Obviously any boat > > including a giant freighter has limits. I've been in 30mph winds on my > > M15 and felt pretty relaxed with everything reefed, but that was on a > > reservoir. I might feel > > a lot less relaxed in 1/2 the wind but with choppier water/swells. > > > > > > > > Obviously any boat has limits, and I'd kind of like to get an idea from > > others about what conditions they WOULDN'T go out in in an M15. With or > > without passenger. > > > > > > > > For example, given this weather report for the next 5 days, what do you > > think? > > Thur?Fri?Sat?Sun?Mon? > > > > > > PZZ150-151945- > > Coastal Waters From Cape Flattery To James Island Out 10 Nm- > > > > 232 AM PST Thu Nov 15 2018 ...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY FOR HAZARDOUS SEAS IN > > EFFECT THROUGH THIS EVENING... > > > > > > TODAY S wind 5 to 15 kt rising to 15 to 20 kt in theafternoon. Wind waves > > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 10 ft at 14 seconds. A > > slight chance of rain in the morning then a chance of rain in the > > > > afternoon. > > > > > > TONIGHT S wind 15 to 20 kt becoming W 5 to 15 kt aftermidnight. Wind > waves > > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 8 ft at 13 seconds. Rain > > > > likely in the evening then a chance of rain after midnight. > > > > > > FRI N wind 10 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 8 ft at > > 11 seconds. A slight chance of showers in the morning. > > > > > > FRI NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 6 > > ft at 11 seconds. > > > > > > SAT E wind 10 to 20 kt. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 5 ft at > > 13 seconds. > > > > > > AT NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt becoming E 10 to 20 kt after > > midnight. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 6 ft at 14 seconds. > > > > > > SUN E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 5 ft. > > > > > > MON E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 3 ft. > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:33:35 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAGjBOA75NzooH63Ona7o2oKK0Fusaxxt2woRYBasmW2wdvm3nw(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats: > > - lower main > - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) > - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is filling and > hard to correctly set the luff) > > The tack reef line is described in this post - > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/ > > > Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & > luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done. > > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > wrote: > > > I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does > a > > tack line attach to? > > > > Thomas Howe > > McGrew Real Estate > > 785-550-1169 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > On > > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > Thomas: > > > > Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses > the > > process - > > > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > > > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > > wrote: > > > > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > > > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > > > be overcomplicated. > > > > > > Thomas Howe > > > McGrew Real Estate > > > 785-550-1169 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > > On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > > > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > > > Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > > boat > > > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > > > > > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > > > the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > > > is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > > > beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > > > will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > > > > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > > > > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > > > or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > > > are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > > complicated. > > > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > > > clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > > > > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > > > at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > > > work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work > > > correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > > > 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > > :: M6'8" #650 > > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > > boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > > > > Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > > > (Zimowsky) > > > > M377 > > > > outdoors writer and photographer > > > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:18:09 -0800 > From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: M_Boats: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) > Message-ID: <3eb8c313-f7bd-0bc2-9bca-c913e078012e(a)eco-living.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Some time back I posted an excellent article on clean simple > reefing...can't find the link now but it speaks to all this with > pictures etc. > > I have tack hooks on my M17 boom - came that way... > They were bolted through the second hole from front of boom (in the > gooseneck tangs on the boom). Way too far back from the mast. I moved > them up to the first hole, a bit better. > If you look at even better tack hook setups they are actually mounted on > the gooseneck hardware itself (the tack pin assembly itself, or > something like that). So they are much closer to centerline. > > If you use hooks, you want 'em as close to the centerline (mast track) > as possible. On the boom is IMO not good enough. Because when you > re-tension the main halyard, you're pulling up on the hook at least a > little bit off-center of the boom. so you're twisting the boom sideways. > Harder the pull, harder the twist. Stress on the gooseneck and/or limits > gooseneck motion. > > Tack line is pulling right down the middle, and right at foot of sail. > And you don't have to lower main as far with tack line as with hooks. > And you can even use the tack line as a downhaul to adjust luff tension > (if luffing w/no pressure on sail). > > I can't get my hooks where I'd want 'em so I will switch to tack lines > for next season. The setup was in place but the clamcleats are worn out > so just need to replace those. > > As mine came, clew cleats were too far back on the boom, and the > location of the cheek blocks was not right (placed for original sail, > not moved for newer sail that came with the boat, is what it looks > like). So I moved all that, and clamcleats instead of the old horn cleats. > > cheers, > John > > > On 11/15/2018 08:33 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: > > IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats: > > > > - lower main > > - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) > > - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is filling > and > > hard to correctly set the luff) > > > > The tack reef line is described in this post - > > > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/ > > > > > > Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & > > luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done. > > > > > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > > wrote: > > > >> I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What > does a > >> tack line attach to? > >> > >> Thomas Howe > >> McGrew Real Estate > >> 785-550-1169 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > On > >> Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > >> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > >> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >> > >> Thomas: > >> > >> Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses > the > >> process - > >> > >> https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > >> > >> > >> :: Dave Scobie > >> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >> :: M6'8" #650 > >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > >> wrote: > >> > >>> ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > >>> I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > >>> be overcomplicated. > >>> > >>> Thomas Howe > >>> McGrew Real Estate > >>> 785-550-1169 > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > >>> To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > >>> Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >>> > >>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>> boat > >>> ramp is not like being on the open water. > >>> > >>> > >>> Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > >>> the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > >>> is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > >>> beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > >>> will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > >>> > >>> Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > >>> > >>> Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > >>> or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > >>> are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > >> complicated. > >>> The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > >>> clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > >>> > >>> Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > >>> at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > >>> work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work > >>> correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > >>> 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > >>> > >>> :: Dave Scobie > >>> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >>> :: M6'8" #650 > >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >>> > >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > >>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > >>> > >>>> I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > >>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>> boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > >>>> Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> > >>>> Pete Winter Sky > >>>> (Zimowsky) > >>>> M377 > >>>> outdoors writer and photographer > >>>> www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:22:30 -0800 > From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) > Message-ID: <89436dba-24b2-6a68-c56e-265cd23481c4(a)eco-living.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue... > > My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway > in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original > sail was boltrope not slugs. > And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at > the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, > some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them > back in one side or another, then put the stop back in. > > With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one > less slug to deal with. > > But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need > for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible. > > That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack > cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards > the boom as far as one might like. > > cheers, > John > > On 11/15/2018 10:18 AM, John Schinnerer wrote: > > Some time back I posted an excellent article on clean simple > > reefing...can't find the link now but it speaks to all this with > > pictures etc. > > > > I have tack hooks on my M17 boom - came that way... > > They were bolted through the second hole from front of? boom (in the > > gooseneck tangs on the boom). Way too far back from the mast. I moved > > them up to the first hole, a bit better. > > If you look at even better tack hook setups they are actually mounted on > > the gooseneck hardware itself (the tack pin assembly itself, or > > something like that). So they are much closer to centerline. > > > > If you use hooks, you want 'em as close to the centerline (mast track) > > as possible. On the boom is IMO not good enough. Because when you > > re-tension the main halyard, you're pulling up on the hook at least a > > little bit off-center of the boom. so you're twisting the boom sideways. > > Harder the pull, harder the twist. Stress on the gooseneck and/or limits > > gooseneck motion. > > > > Tack line is pulling right down the middle, and right at foot of sail. > > And you don't have to lower main as far with tack line as with hooks. > > And you can even use the tack line as a downhaul to adjust luff tension > > (if luffing w/no pressure on sail). > > > > I can't get my hooks where I'd want 'em so I will switch to tack lines > > for next season. The setup was in place but the clamcleats are worn out > > so just need to replace those. > > > > As mine came, clew cleats were too far back on the boom, and the > > location of the cheek blocks was not right (placed for original sail, > > not moved for newer sail that came with the boat, is what it looks > > like). So I moved all that, and clamcleats instead of the old horn > cleats. > > > > cheers, > > John > > > > > > On 11/15/2018 08:33 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: > >> IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats: > >> > >> - lower main > >> - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) > >> - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is > >> filling and > >> hard to correctly set the luff) > >> > >> The tack reef line is described in this post - > >> > >> https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/ > >> > >> > >> Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & > >> luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done. > >> > >> > >> > >> :: Dave Scobie > >> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >> :: M6'8" #650 > >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What > >>> does a > >>> tack line attach to? > >>> > >>> Thomas Howe > >>> McGrew Real Estate > >>> 785-550-1169 > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: montgomery_boats > >>> <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> On > >>> Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > >>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > >>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >>> > >>> Thomas: > >>> > >>> Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that > >>> discusses the > >>> process - > >>> > >>> https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > >>> > >>> > >>> :: Dave Scobie > >>> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >>> :: M6'8" #650 > >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > >>>> ? I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > >>>> be overcomplicated. > >>>> > >>>> Thomas Howe > >>>> McGrew Real Estate > >>>> 785-550-1169 > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com > > > >>>> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > >>>> To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > >>>> Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >>>> > >>>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>>> boat > >>>> ramp is not like being on the open water. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS.? When > >>>> the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > >>>> is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > >>>> beam.? As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > >>>> will roll.? This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > >>>> > >>>> Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > >>>> > >>>> Know how to reef and make it simple and easy.? Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > >>>> or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > >>>> are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > >>> complicated. > >>>> The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > >>>> clew line on the boom is simple and works!? Practice practice > practice. > >>>> > >>>> Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > >>>> at more than 30% sail reduction.? Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > >>>> work on a roller furler!? The sails are cut differently to work > >>>> correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > >>>> 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully > extended. > >>>> > >>>> :: Dave Scobie > >>>> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >>>> :: M6'8" #650 > >>>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > >>>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > >>>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>>> boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > >>>>> Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Pete Winter Sky > >>>>> (Zimowsky) > >>>>> M377 > >>>>> outdoors writer and photographer > >>>>> www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > montgomery_boats mailing list > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > ------------------------------ > > End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 189, Issue 7 > ************************************************ >

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Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
by Gary Oberbeck 17 Nov '18

17 Nov '18

John, The tackle used for cunningham/reef is a small Harken block set (40mm?) that has a camcleat on the lower block (attached to the mast step organizer plate) - release cleat, pull the hook out of cunni. cringle - move it up to the reef cringle- use one hand. Easy. I really like 'easy'! I have never had good luck with reef hooks - they seem to allow the cringle to fall off the hook as you are tensioning the halyard - like a clock! Two lines as OEM are fine but they would bind and are of small diameter - not really strong and quick to engage if the sail is loaded up. But they were fine and present which is more than many small boats of the class. The cunni/reef tackle is attached at the starboard side of the mast organizer plate ahead of the sail slot such that it pulls forward and down - a good lead for both purposes. Photo of "Excellent crew" and great friend Craig Painter - shows the hook and pennant at the cunni. cringle - (both tack and cunningham cringles get tied around the mast to keep the boltrope from point loading -tear-out! Use small diameter dyneema or similar - tied around spar at cringles - it slides on mast and prevents the sail -slug or boltrope - from pulling out when halyard is released) Sorry, not great photo of anything there - yellow line on top of boom is aft reefline -(not reeved at photo as it was a 'light' weekend of racing) Matching cleat at bottom of boom is outhaul. Have fUn, go sailing!GO -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Fri, Nov 16, 2018 10:26 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) Thanks GO...I like the cunningham/reef tackle idea. You need to slack the line and move the hook to next reef point. how much of a hassle do you find that, vs. having two reef lines & cleats in place (OEM setup)? Can second the value of a little silicone spray (pure silicone stuff only, NOT petroleum-laced!!!) in the track. Partly from my M17, which has slugs (came that way...) and even a half-hearted bit of spraying made for smoother raising. Even more so from a friend's Corsair 31, which has a boltrope luff and an 'effing huge tall mast and (relative to ours at least) enormous mainsail...he was often there with spray can as we raised the main, spraying as it went into the slot (it's a loooooong way to the top on one of those puppies...thank Dog for low gear on the winch...). cheers, john On 11/16/2018 09:43 AM, Gary Oberbeck via montgomery_boats wrote: > Reefing -approaches to problems on small trailerable boats. > I see so many people have this as a concern and it comes up almost annually - so my unsolicited response follows: > The operation of the boat needs to be dead nuts simple (where possible) AND reliable in 'freak-out' conditions. > I HATE drilling holes in any parts of my boats or attaching additional gee gaws. I dislike them SO much so I will walk away from a potential used boat to purchase if it is even remotely 'riddled with holes' - and those bulkhead compass holes/thru deck bilge pumps/hawse pipes - YEOWWW! Enough of my mental /social defects......back to reefing. > There are no slugs on the mainsail, a fixed gooseneck and use a 4:1 stand alone tackle with reef hook attached to the mast step area organizer for forward reef (serves duty as cunningham when not used for reef) - No problems at all. Easy and fast as is now required with advancing age and declining strength of yours truly. > > Aft reef line is internal at boom - terminating approx. 14" from gooseneck - cleat facing aft. (pull reef towrds yourself as I am in companionway while reefing) > Just for giggles, someday when you are bored - remove the slugs from your mainsail and clean your sail slot (full length of the slot and use SailCote to lubricate slot and boltrope) then try reefing in 'non-emergency conditions' - you will be surprised. (This clean/lube is typically a once a year maintenance item on 'Tiny Purple Fishes') > PS - my mainsail 'falls down' when the halyard is released fast enough to startle. 99+% of the time hoists as fast as I can haul - unless the operator does something less than stylish. No binding slugs. This makes reefing quick and 'clean'. FWIW - back in my MIP days - I made good money installing slugs on new boat mainsails - and selling replacement slugs, and mast gates, and sail slug stops. Decided they really didn't work based on value/performance. > The easier it is - the safer/faster/more likely to get used and perform it's function. > K.I.S.S ailor! > WARNING - DO NOT get dry film teflon lubricant anywhere you want secure footing! Mask if needed to prevent overspray. > Give it a shot -Take Care, Have fUn, go sailing! > GO > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Re: M_Boats: Reefing
by Gary Oberbeck 17 Nov '18

17 Nov '18

The masthead rig will sail well in higher wind ranges with the full jib (even genoa!) and a reefed mainsail - try it sometime you will be surprised. GO -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Fri, Nov 16, 2018 7:37 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Reefing Ditto this part... On 11/16/2018 08:47 AM, Jon Barber wrote: ... > A further concern is the head sail. I see far to many of my sailing friends > furl their head sails when the wind gets sporting, instead of reefing or > double reefing the main. The next step is to fire the motor as without a > head sail, these small pocket cruisers do not go to windward. Moving jib > fair leads aft will flatten and depower the head sail. As Jerry and Dave have said here many times, the M17 is a masthead rig and jib is primary power source (that's how I understood it anyhow). Until I got the reefing jib I had to play it safe with what hank-on jib to start out with, so as not to be overpowered and have to douse the jib and live with just the main. So usually I was a bit "under-jibbed." With the reefable jib, I am able to play with having a full reef in main and more jib, and it definitely seems more powerful that way. And less easily overpowered. I will say that my M17 at least (#38, close cousin to your #44 Jon) is not a complete dog with only the main. Definitely not as much power, but caught downwind on a lake once in rising gustiness, I doused the jib and tacked back to marina on main alone (with flattening reef in) and she did OK. I might have had to take one more tack than normal, on a straight-line distance of ~2 miles. And she went a bit slower so it took maybe an extra 20% of the usual time. But she just chugged along through the chop, safe and comfortable. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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M-Boater offer to other sailors.
by Gary Oberbeck 17 Nov '18

17 Nov '18

I live at Lake Havasu for the winter and sail my M15. I stay at Crazy Horse Campground which is situated right on the lake. There is tent camping right at the beach in that campground. There are good bathrooms with good showers as well plus a small store, pool, and small marina. Its one half mile from town on the island. Why do I bring this up? If anyone wants to come early or stay late for the AZ Winter Messabout at Lake Pleasant and spend some time at Lake Havasu, I am in a 40’ fifth wheel right on the beach. There is room for one or a couple in my luxury fifth wheel or in a tent at my fifth wheel location. I have lots of room where I am situated. Or you could tent camp on the sand by the lake but there is a small fee. Just offering this as an option free of charge. We have campfires on the beach at night, have group guitar led sing-a-longs, and go sailing. Caution: Sometimes the wind is much too strong to sail. Feel free to post this anyway you want or disregard it entirely. Doug BoudinotBend, OR1980 M15

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Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
by Dave Scobie 17 Nov '18

17 Nov '18

John. Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you. I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:52 AM John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net wrote: > Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue... > > My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway > in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original > sail was boltrope not slugs. > And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at > the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, > some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them > back in one side or another, then put the stop back in. > > With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one > less slug to deal with. > > But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need > for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible. > > That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack > cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards > the boom as far as one might like. > > cheers, > John > >

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Reefing
by Jon Barber 17 Nov '18

17 Nov '18

I tried the little twin horn reefing hook from Duckworks. The reef crinkle would fall off at the most inconvenient times. I bought another from West Marine and mounted it on the mast. Much better. It is more than ahook, once the crinkle is in place it can't come off. I've never timed myself reefing as being a single handed sailor both hands are full. One tactic I employ it to reef at the dock. If needed I will shake out reefs after assessing conditions. A further concern is the head sail. I see far to many of my sailing friends furl their head sails when the wind gets sporting, instead of reefing or double reefing the main. The next step is to fire the motor as without a head sail, these small pocket cruisers do not go to windward. Moving jib fair leads aft will flatten and depower the head sail. I recently sailed on the San Joaquin river into a 25 kt headwind, with gusting to 35. My 17 heeled and occasionally rounded up but did so in a predictable way. Shipped 1/2 g water (first time). Realized securing all openings a primary concern as I was unable to reach boards from the helm. Over my head, oh yes. Beyond the ability of my boat? Not even close . Everytime I sail in sporting conditions I learn more about my abilities and about the abilities of my boat. Thanks Jerry! 45 years young and still a great boat. Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 11:22 AM < montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > montgomery_boats-request(a)mailman.xmission.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > montgomery_boats-owner(a)mailman.xmission.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 15M v 17M (Jazzy) > 2. Re: 15M v 17M (Peter Zimowsky) > 3. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 4. Re: 15M v 17M (Lawrence Winiarski) > 5. Re: 15M v 17M (Thomas Howe) > 6. Re: 15M v 17M (Lawrence Winiarski) > 7. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 8. Re: 15M v 17M (Thomas Howe) > 9. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 10. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) > 11. Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) (John Schinnerer) > 12. Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) (John Schinnerer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:21:42 -0800 > From: Jazzy <jazzydaze(a)gmail.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAHJ-33HA8cTe0RgQ-oRJe-r5bSm0HH3d7oPMyR7OXc_LkgSmcA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I just went out in a small vessel warning, severe weather watch in my 17 on > purpose for experience. Double reef and furled genny..was a hoot! Tested > me but the boat only messed up when I did and it saved me before I even > knew twice. Stout little boats. That's why I hunted one down. Sail smart > and itll have your back. A peaceful anchor on the lee shore of blake > island, puget sound , and more of the same home. All good and never felt > under boated. > > El Nino > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 9:17 PM Daniel Rich <danielgrich(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > Ah, I remember it well! Fun sailing with you back then. I had a baggy jib > > I think. When I replaced the sails, the pointing improved. Still though, > > with the current and the waves, still not sure we woulda made it without > > motoring! > > > > Daniel > > > > > On Nov 12, 2018, at 9:12 PM, John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > > wrote: > > > > > > I was in some 20+ knots, gusting higher, with steep wind chop, in an > M15 > > (Daniel Rich's) on Tomales Bay (CA) years ago, and we were trying to tack > > back upwind to the launch ramp. We couldn't make much if any headway, and > > ended up dropping sails and motoring. After we sorted that out, I noticed > > that at no point in trying to tack or giving up and dropping sails could > I > > recall being worried about the seaworthiness of the boat in those > > conditions. I was nervous, but not about the boat. We barely even got > > splashed. > > > > > > cheers, > > > John > > > > > > On 11/12/2018 03:42 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > > >> Thanks this should give me more confidence! > > >> Pete > > >> Sent from my iPhone > > >>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 15:52, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hi Pete, > > >>> > > >>> One of the M-15 owners sailed his M15 from San Diego to Hawaii, and > > recently wrote a book about his trip. He was 22 years old and sailed > solo. > > >>> > > >>> He does an excellent bit of writing; talking about his preparations; > > his initial departure; then the growing thought, "what have I gotten > myself > > into....?" and then the slow but steady growth of his feeling that it's > > really doable as the days pass / bad weather passes / and slowly he nears > > his destination, Hawaii. > > >>> > > >>> It was a 38 day ocean crossing in 1982. > > >>> > > >>> The book title is: "A Little Breeze to the West" by Michael Scott > > Mann ISBN No.9781517572242 > > >>> > > >>> It's great read. > > >>> > > >>> Ciao, > > >>> > > >>> Connie > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> On 11/12/2018 2:18 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > > >>>> Hi Brad: > > >>>> I really do love my M15 and it fits the bill for almost anything. I > > just worry about cruising in big water with it. I worry that I might be > > fool hearty going in some of the places I want to go with the bigger > boats. > > >>>> Being a whitewater river rafter and dory man, I?m very cautious > > >>>> Thanks for the discussion. > > >>>> Good winds > > >>>> Pete > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:57, brad kurlancheek < > bkurlancheek(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Pete, > > >>>>> I own a 15M only - but I can tell how much a difference it was > > >>>>> for me going from my 13 foot microcruiser to the M15. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In my 13, almost everything is within arm's reach. JUst a slight > > stretch > > >>>>> in one direction or the other, and voila, I had what I needed or > > could do > > >>>>> what I needed. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> And when I sit one one cockpit side, it's easy for me to rest my > > heels on > > >>>>> the edge > > >>>>> of the seat of the other side, and lean back a tad and be happy as > a > > clam. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Not so with the M15. I found that to do almost anything, required a > > whole > > >>>>> step > > >>>>> one way or the other, and then the stretch. In other words, I had > to > > go get > > >>>>> it (poor me!). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> And when sitting on one cockpit bench my feet did not so > comfortably > > find a > > >>>>> resting > > >>>>> place right on the other (i'm 5'9, or used to be). They could get > > there, > > >>>>> but it doesn't seem > > >>>>> as comfortable. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes, of course, I much enjoy the lavish cabin space (lavish to me > at > > least) > > >>>>> in the M15 as > > >>>>> compared to my 13 footer, and appreciate the added storage space, > > stability > > >>>>> and control immensely. > > >>>>> It's just that added step or additional reach required to get > things > > done, > > >>>>> that sometimes chaffs on me. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> My point I guess, is, that with regards to your going from a 15 to > > 17, > > >>>>> anticipate > > >>>>> that for every movement > > >>>>> you used to make in the M15 to accomplish something, doing the same > > in an > > >>>>> M17, will require even a little > > >>>>> bit more movement than what you're used to. Good luck. - Brad > > > > > > -- > > > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > - Eco-Living - > > > Whole Systems Design Services > > > People - Place - Learning - Integration > > > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > > > http://eco-living.net > > > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:47:37 -0700 > From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: <3B56D6DA-8E31-4780-81D1-BE704ED3F2C3(a)mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp > is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the > seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > Thanks, > > Pete Winter Sky > (Zimowsky) > M377 > outdoors writer and photographer > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > > > "Be with Tahlequah" > Talhequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of > 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues > to the world to help us save your Orca family. > > > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2018, at 1:21 AM, Jazzy <jazzydaze(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I just went out in a small vessel warning, severe weather watch in my 17 > on > > purpose for experience. Double reef and furled genny..was a hoot! > Tested > > me but the boat only messed up when I did and it saved me before I even > > knew twice. Stout little boats. That's why I hunted one down. Sail > smart > > and itll have your back. A peaceful anchor on the lee shore of blake > > island, puget sound , and more of the same home. All good and never felt > > under boated. > > > > El Nino > > > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 9:17 PM Daniel Rich <danielgrich(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > >> Ah, I remember it well! Fun sailing with you back then. I had a baggy > jib > >> I think. When I replaced the sails, the pointing improved. Still though, > >> with the current and the waves, still not sure we woulda made it without > >> motoring! > >> > >> Daniel > >> > >>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 9:12 PM, John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I was in some 20+ knots, gusting higher, with steep wind chop, in an > M15 > >> (Daniel Rich's) on Tomales Bay (CA) years ago, and we were trying to > tack > >> back upwind to the launch ramp. We couldn't make much if any headway, > and > >> ended up dropping sails and motoring. After we sorted that out, I > noticed > >> that at no point in trying to tack or giving up and dropping sails > could I > >> recall being worried about the seaworthiness of the boat in those > >> conditions. I was nervous, but not about the boat. We barely even got > >> splashed. > >>> > >>> cheers, > >>> John > >>> > >>> On 11/12/2018 03:42 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > >>>> Thanks this should give me more confidence! > >>>> Pete > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 15:52, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck(a)gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Pete, > >>>>> > >>>>> One of the M-15 owners sailed his M15 from San Diego to Hawaii, and > >> recently wrote a book about his trip. He was 22 years old and sailed > solo. > >>>>> > >>>>> He does an excellent bit of writing; talking about his preparations; > >> his initial departure; then the growing thought, "what have I gotten > myself > >> into....?" and then the slow but steady growth of his feeling that it's > >> really doable as the days pass / bad weather passes / and slowly he > nears > >> his destination, Hawaii. > >>>>> > >>>>> It was a 38 day ocean crossing in 1982. > >>>>> > >>>>> The book title is: "A Little Breeze to the West" by Michael Scott > >> Mann ISBN No.9781517572242 > >>>>> > >>>>> It's great read. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ciao, > >>>>> > >>>>> Connie > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/12/2018 2:18 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > >>>>>> Hi Brad: > >>>>>> I really do love my M15 and it fits the bill for almost anything. I > >> just worry about cruising in big water with it. I worry that I might be > >> fool hearty going in some of the places I want to go with the bigger > boats. > >>>>>> Being a whitewater river rafter and dory man, I?m very cautious > >>>>>> Thanks for the discussion. > >>>>>> Good winds > >>>>>> Pete > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:57, brad kurlancheek < > bkurlancheek(a)gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Pete, > >>>>>>> I own a 15M only - but I can tell how much a difference it was > >>>>>>> for me going from my 13 foot microcruiser to the M15. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In my 13, almost everything is within arm's reach. JUst a slight > >> stretch > >>>>>>> in one direction or the other, and voila, I had what I needed or > >> could do > >>>>>>> what I needed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And when I sit one one cockpit side, it's easy for me to rest my > >> heels on > >>>>>>> the edge > >>>>>>> of the seat of the other side, and lean back a tad and be happy as > a > >> clam. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Not so with the M15. I found that to do almost anything, required a > >> whole > >>>>>>> step > >>>>>>> one way or the other, and then the stretch. In other words, I had > to > >> go get > >>>>>>> it (poor me!). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And when sitting on one cockpit bench my feet did not so > comfortably > >> find a > >>>>>>> resting > >>>>>>> place right on the other (i'm 5'9, or used to be). They could get > >> there, > >>>>>>> but it doesn't seem > >>>>>>> as comfortable. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes, of course, I much enjoy the lavish cabin space (lavish to me > at > >> least) > >>>>>>> in the M15 as > >>>>>>> compared to my 13 footer, and appreciate the added storage space, > >> stability > >>>>>>> and control immensely. > >>>>>>> It's just that added step or additional reach required to get > things > >> done, > >>>>>>> that sometimes chaffs on me. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> My point I guess, is, that with regards to your going from a 15 to > >> 17, > >>>>>>> anticipate > >>>>>>> that for every movement > >>>>>>> you used to make in the M15 to accomplish something, doing the same > >> in an > >>>>>>> M17, will require even a little > >>>>>>> bit more movement than what you're used to. Good luck. - Brad > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > >>> -------------------------------------------- > >>> - Eco-Living - > >>> Whole Systems Design Services > >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration > >>> john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > >>> http://eco-living.net > >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:23:40 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>, For and about Montgomery > Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAGjBOA5BiO8a04jC0_yknUWDSAGhRYSO9pAwyLNk74OnxYO+zg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on > a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp > > is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking > the > > seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > Thanks, > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > (Zimowsky) > > M377 > > outdoors writer and photographer > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:50:30 +0000 (UTC) > From: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: <1615424745.1095240.1542297030556(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > I'm a little worried about being overconfident. Obviously any boat > including a giant freighter has limits. I've been in 30mph winds on my > M15 and felt pretty relaxed with everything reefed, but that was on a > reservoir. I might feel > a lot less relaxed in 1/2 the wind but with choppier water/swells. > > > > Obviously any boat has limits, and I'd kind of like to get an idea from > others about what conditions they WOULDN'T go out in in an M15. With or > without passenger. > > > > For example, given this weather report for the next 5 days, what do you > think? > Thur?Fri?Sat?Sun?Mon? > > > PZZ150-151945- > Coastal Waters From Cape Flattery To James Island Out 10 Nm- > > 232 AM PST Thu Nov 15 2018 ...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY FOR HAZARDOUS SEAS IN > EFFECT THROUGH THIS EVENING... > > > TODAY S wind 5 to 15 kt rising to 15 to 20 kt in theafternoon. Wind waves > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 10 ft at 14 seconds. A > slight chance of rain in the morning then a chance of rain in the > > afternoon. > > > TONIGHT S wind 15 to 20 kt becoming W 5 to 15 kt aftermidnight. Wind waves > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 8 ft at 13 seconds. Rain > > likely in the evening then a chance of rain after midnight. > > > FRI N wind 10 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 8 ft at > 11 seconds. A slight chance of showers in the morning. > > > FRI NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 6 > ft at 11 seconds. > > > SAT E wind 10 to 20 kt. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 5 ft at > 13 seconds. > > > AT NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt becoming E 10 to 20 kt after > midnight. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 6 ft at 14 seconds. > > > SUN E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 5 ft. > > > MON E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 3 ft. > > ________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:54:16 +0000 > From: Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CY4PR11MB135212725FB29CCCECF2B4B1AFDC0(a)CY4PR11MB1352.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be > overcomplicated. > > Thomas Howe > McGrew Real Estate > 785-550-1169 > > -----Original Message----- > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> On > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > boat > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on > a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > > ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty > > taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > Thanks, > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > (Zimowsky) > > M377 > > outdoors writer and photographer > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:59:04 +0000 (UTC) > From: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com>, Dave Scobie > <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: <83795892.1106783.1542297544600(a)mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > That's great info.???? Thanks again Dave! > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:24 AM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS.? When the > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam.? As > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll.? This > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy.? Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > line on the boom is simple and works!? Practice practice practice. > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > more than 30% sail reduction.? Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on > a roller furler!? The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > ramp > > is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking > the > > seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > Thanks, > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > (Zimowsky) > > M377 > > outdoors writer and photographer > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:17:15 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAGjBOA4O2333duTA0srpqwLTPFinH5ppnEkDt8vcsyRjMWhKaA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Thomas: > > Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the > process - > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > wrote: > > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be > > overcomplicated. > > > > Thomas Howe > > McGrew Real Estate > > 785-550-1169 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > On > > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats > < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > boat > > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > the > > wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is > > increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As > > the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. > This > > simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or > > Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are > prone > > to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. > > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew > > line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at > > more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work > on > > a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a > > incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed > and > > make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of > > > course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat > > > ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty > > > taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > > (Zimowsky) > > > M377 > > > outdoors writer and photographer > > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:22:40 +0000 > From: Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CY4PR11MB1352277EE1310A1E90EE7239AFDC0(a)CY4PR11MB1352.namprd11.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does a > tack line attach to? > > Thomas Howe > McGrew Real Estate > 785-550-1169 > > -----Original Message----- > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> On > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > Thomas: > > Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the > process - > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > wrote: > > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > > be overcomplicated. > > > > Thomas Howe > > McGrew Real Estate > > 785-550-1169 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > > Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > boat > > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > > the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > > is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > > beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > > will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > > or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > > are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > complicated. > > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > > clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > > at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > > work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work > > correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > > 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > > > Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > > (Zimowsky) > > > M377 > > > outdoors writer and photographer > > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:26:23 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski(a)yahoo.com>, For and about > Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > <CAGjBOA6wyfY-ss45vjMGXE_= > iaQLsuP2Xga2uAJnv6coxJ2HeA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Lawrence: > > Always go only if you are comfortable! > > The go-no-go decision is always the captain's. > > Decision based on skills, experience and knowledge of the area. > > To gain skills and experience can be done in many ways: challenge self out > of comfort zone, classes and sailing with more experienced skippers. I > learned a lot in the many cruise in company events like Larry Yake's old > MSOG San Juan and Gulf Islands cruise; and small boat races like the old > Wrinkleboat, old HPCC and the Cruiser Challenge. > > One of the best has been sailing and racing with Jerry Montgomery. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:51 AM Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > > > I'm a little worried about being overconfident. Obviously any boat > > including a giant freighter has limits. I've been in 30mph winds on my > > M15 and felt pretty relaxed with everything reefed, but that was on a > > reservoir. I might feel > > a lot less relaxed in 1/2 the wind but with choppier water/swells. > > > > > > > > Obviously any boat has limits, and I'd kind of like to get an idea from > > others about what conditions they WOULDN'T go out in in an M15. With or > > without passenger. > > > > > > > > For example, given this weather report for the next 5 days, what do you > > think? > > Thur?Fri?Sat?Sun?Mon? > > > > > > PZZ150-151945- > > Coastal Waters From Cape Flattery To James Island Out 10 Nm- > > > > 232 AM PST Thu Nov 15 2018 ...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY FOR HAZARDOUS SEAS IN > > EFFECT THROUGH THIS EVENING... > > > > > > TODAY S wind 5 to 15 kt rising to 15 to 20 kt in theafternoon. Wind waves > > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 10 ft at 14 seconds. A > > slight chance of rain in the morning then a chance of rain in the > > > > afternoon. > > > > > > TONIGHT S wind 15 to 20 kt becoming W 5 to 15 kt aftermidnight. Wind > waves > > 1 to 3 ft. W swell 8 ft at 13 seconds. Rain > > > > likely in the evening then a chance of rain after midnight. > > > > > > FRI N wind 10 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 8 ft at > > 11 seconds. A slight chance of showers in the morning. > > > > > > FRI NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 6 > > ft at 11 seconds. > > > > > > SAT E wind 10 to 20 kt. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 5 ft at > > 13 seconds. > > > > > > AT NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt becoming E 10 to 20 kt after > > midnight. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 6 ft at 14 seconds. > > > > > > SUN E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 5 ft. > > > > > > MON E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 3 ft. > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:33:35 -0800 > From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > Message-ID: > < > CAGjBOA75NzooH63Ona7o2oKK0Fusaxxt2woRYBasmW2wdvm3nw(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats: > > - lower main > - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) > - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is filling and > hard to correctly set the luff) > > The tack reef line is described in this post - > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/ > > > Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & > luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done. > > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > wrote: > > > I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does > a > > tack line attach to? > > > > Thomas Howe > > McGrew Real Estate > > 785-550-1169 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > On > > Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > Thomas: > > > > Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses > the > > process - > > > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > > > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > > wrote: > > > > > ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > > > I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > > > be overcomplicated. > > > > > > Thomas Howe > > > McGrew Real Estate > > > 785-550-1169 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > > On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > > > To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > > > Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > > > > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > > boat > > > ramp is not like being on the open water. > > > > > > > > > Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > > > the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > > > is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > > > beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > > > will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > > > > > > Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > > > > > > Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > > > or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > > > are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > > complicated. > > > The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > > > clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > > > > > > Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > > > at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > > > work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work > > > correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > > > 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > > > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > > :: M6'8" #650 > > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > > > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > > > > > > > I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > > > > Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > > > > boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > > > > Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Pete Winter Sky > > > > (Zimowsky) > > > > M377 > > > > outdoors writer and photographer > > > > www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:18:09 -0800 > From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: M_Boats: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) > Message-ID: <3eb8c313-f7bd-0bc2-9bca-c913e078012e(a)eco-living.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Some time back I posted an excellent article on clean simple > reefing...can't find the link now but it speaks to all this with > pictures etc. > > I have tack hooks on my M17 boom - came that way... > They were bolted through the second hole from front of boom (in the > gooseneck tangs on the boom). Way too far back from the mast. I moved > them up to the first hole, a bit better. > If you look at even better tack hook setups they are actually mounted on > the gooseneck hardware itself (the tack pin assembly itself, or > something like that). So they are much closer to centerline. > > If you use hooks, you want 'em as close to the centerline (mast track) > as possible. On the boom is IMO not good enough. Because when you > re-tension the main halyard, you're pulling up on the hook at least a > little bit off-center of the boom. so you're twisting the boom sideways. > Harder the pull, harder the twist. Stress on the gooseneck and/or limits > gooseneck motion. > > Tack line is pulling right down the middle, and right at foot of sail. > And you don't have to lower main as far with tack line as with hooks. > And you can even use the tack line as a downhaul to adjust luff tension > (if luffing w/no pressure on sail). > > I can't get my hooks where I'd want 'em so I will switch to tack lines > for next season. The setup was in place but the clamcleats are worn out > so just need to replace those. > > As mine came, clew cleats were too far back on the boom, and the > location of the cheek blocks was not right (placed for original sail, > not moved for newer sail that came with the boat, is what it looks > like). So I moved all that, and clamcleats instead of the old horn cleats. > > cheers, > John > > > On 11/15/2018 08:33 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: > > IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats: > > > > - lower main > > - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) > > - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is filling > and > > hard to correctly set the luff) > > > > The tack reef line is described in this post - > > > > https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/ > > > > > > Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & > > luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done. > > > > > > > > :: Dave Scobie > > :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > > :: M6'8" #650 > > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > > wrote: > > > >> I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What > does a > >> tack line attach to? > >> > >> Thomas Howe > >> McGrew Real Estate > >> 785-550-1169 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > On > >> Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > >> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > >> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >> > >> Thomas: > >> > >> Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses > the > >> process - > >> > >> https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > >> > >> > >> :: Dave Scobie > >> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >> :: M6'8" #650 > >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > >> wrote: > >> > >>> ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > >>> I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > >>> be overcomplicated. > >>> > >>> Thomas Howe > >>> McGrew Real Estate > >>> 785-550-1169 > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > >>> To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > >>> Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >>> > >>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>> boat > >>> ramp is not like being on the open water. > >>> > >>> > >>> Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When > >>> the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > >>> is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > >>> beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > >>> will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > >>> > >>> Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > >>> > >>> Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > >>> or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > >>> are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > >> complicated. > >>> The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > >>> clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice. > >>> > >>> Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > >>> at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > >>> work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work > >>> correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > >>> 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended. > >>> > >>> :: Dave Scobie > >>> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >>> :: M6'8" #650 > >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >>> > >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > >>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > >>> > >>>> I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > >>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>> boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > >>>> Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> > >>>> Pete Winter Sky > >>>> (Zimowsky) > >>>> M377 > >>>> outdoors writer and photographer > >>>> www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:22:30 -0800 > From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) > Message-ID: <89436dba-24b2-6a68-c56e-265cd23481c4(a)eco-living.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue... > > My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway > in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original > sail was boltrope not slugs. > And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at > the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, > some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them > back in one side or another, then put the stop back in. > > With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one > less slug to deal with. > > But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need > for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible. > > That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack > cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards > the boom as far as one might like. > > cheers, > John > > On 11/15/2018 10:18 AM, John Schinnerer wrote: > > Some time back I posted an excellent article on clean simple > > reefing...can't find the link now but it speaks to all this with > > pictures etc. > > > > I have tack hooks on my M17 boom - came that way... > > They were bolted through the second hole from front of? boom (in the > > gooseneck tangs on the boom). Way too far back from the mast. I moved > > them up to the first hole, a bit better. > > If you look at even better tack hook setups they are actually mounted on > > the gooseneck hardware itself (the tack pin assembly itself, or > > something like that). So they are much closer to centerline. > > > > If you use hooks, you want 'em as close to the centerline (mast track) > > as possible. On the boom is IMO not good enough. Because when you > > re-tension the main halyard, you're pulling up on the hook at least a > > little bit off-center of the boom. so you're twisting the boom sideways. > > Harder the pull, harder the twist. Stress on the gooseneck and/or limits > > gooseneck motion. > > > > Tack line is pulling right down the middle, and right at foot of sail. > > And you don't have to lower main as far with tack line as with hooks. > > And you can even use the tack line as a downhaul to adjust luff tension > > (if luffing w/no pressure on sail). > > > > I can't get my hooks where I'd want 'em so I will switch to tack lines > > for next season. The setup was in place but the clamcleats are worn out > > so just need to replace those. > > > > As mine came, clew cleats were too far back on the boom, and the > > location of the cheek blocks was not right (placed for original sail, > > not moved for newer sail that came with the boat, is what it looks > > like). So I moved all that, and clamcleats instead of the old horn > cleats. > > > > cheers, > > John > > > > > > On 11/15/2018 08:33 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: > >> IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats: > >> > >> - lower main > >> - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) > >> - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is > >> filling and > >> hard to correctly set the luff) > >> > >> The tack reef line is described in this post - > >> > >> https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/ > >> > >> > >> Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & > >> luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done. > >> > >> > >> > >> :: Dave Scobie > >> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >> :: M6'8" #650 > >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What > >>> does a > >>> tack line attach to? > >>> > >>> Thomas Howe > >>> McGrew Real Estate > >>> 785-550-1169 > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: montgomery_boats > >>> <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com> On > >>> Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM > >>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > >>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >>> > >>> Thomas: > >>> > >>> Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that > >>> discusses the > >>> process - > >>> > >>> https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing > >>> > >>> > >>> :: Dave Scobie > >>> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >>> :: M6'8" #650 > >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas(a)thomashoweonline.com > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> ..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." > >>>> ? I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may > >>>> be overcomplicated. > >>>> > >>>> Thomas Howe > >>>> McGrew Real Estate > >>>> 785-550-1169 > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com > > > >>>> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie > >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM > >>>> To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz(a)mac.com>; For and about Montgomery > >>>> Sailboats < montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > >>>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M > >>>> > >>>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>>> boat > >>>> ramp is not like being on the open water. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS.? When > >>>> the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave > >>>> is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the > >>>> beam.? As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat > >>>> will roll.? This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size. > >>>> > >>>> Again this is a breaking wave not swells. > >>>> > >>>> Know how to reef and make it simple and easy.? Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, > >>>> or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing > >>>> are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more > >>> complicated. > >>>> The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and > >>>> clew line on the boom is simple and works!? Practice practice > practice. > >>>> > >>>> Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates > >>>> at more than 30% sail reduction.? Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to > >>>> work on a roller furler!? The sails are cut differently to work > >>>> correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse > >>>> 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully > extended. > >>>> > >>>> :: Dave Scobie > >>>> :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > >>>> :: M6'8" #650 > >>>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > >>>> montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. > >>>>> Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the > >>>>> boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the > >>>>> Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Pete Winter Sky > >>>>> (Zimowsky) > >>>>> M377 > >>>>> outdoors writer and photographer > >>>>> www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > montgomery_boats mailing list > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! > > > ------------------------------ > > End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 189, Issue 7 > ************************************************ >

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