March 2014 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: Mast loading on an M17
by jerry montgomery 14 Mar '14

14 Mar '14

No- I saw your email regarding mast compression. I'd leave the post in; a masthead rig has more compression than a fractional. On the Sage we use 1" of balsa on the cabin top and 1/2" down the sides fwd of the window abd obn the side decks, with three layers of carbon on each side of the balsa. I haven't had my Sage in more than about 20 knots of wind but can't see any flex at all, and I think it's stiff enough to drive a truck over. It would be pretty hard to retrofit a similar sandwich unless you turned the boat upside down! jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Buzzi To: jerry montgomery Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 5:21 PM Subject: Mast loading on an M17 Hi Jerry, My emails don't seem to be getting to the site, for some reason. So I will ask you, if you think a beam of some sort running below the headliner and attached at the chairplates would take the compression load of the M17 mast? Then I could do away with the compression post on the v-berth and have a "Sage" type v-berth. Regards, Tom B -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 10286 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen

1 0

Re: M_Boats: proper boom placement
by W David Scobie 13 Mar '14

13 Mar '14

Thom: with the sliding gooseneck you need to have a line that keeps the 'mast end' of the boom from rising. you also need a vang to keep the boom from rising when off the wind. the vang is also used when going to weather based on the conditions and your preferences in adjusting sail shape. be sure to review the information shared by JudyB ... i agree with all she said (yes, it is true that as sail become older than five or so years need to be replaced even if not heavy used). a sail original to your boat is way past replacement date. :: Dave Scobie -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/11/14, Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Subject: Re: M_Boats: proper boom placement To: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2014, 7:04 PM Hi Dave.Not sure who made my mainsail, but I'll check.Is it safe to say that the boom should sit wherever it wants to naturally sit on the mast when the sail is fully raised? I guess I'm also wondering if a boom vang is sufficient for keeping downward tension on the boom, or if you advise also rigging some kind of downhaul from the bottom of the gooseneck to the deck (i.e. some means of locking the gooseneck in place).Thanks,Thom From: W David Scobie <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> To: Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: proper boom placement Thom: was your main made by McKibben (sic)? my M15's ('84) and my M17's ('83) mains were/are McK sails. both set the aft end of the boom low (good for hitting heads). when i talked to Harry Pattison, with E/P sailmakers, about this his guess (besides the sails being old and blow out) is McK cut the sails this way to gain a few extra square feet of sail area. when Harry made the new main for my M15 it was cut so the boom was 'flat'. i had Harry re-cut the foot of my M17's blown out old main to be loose foot and set the boom flat. :: Dave Scobie -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/11/14, Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Dave.1987. The main is older I think, but in good shape. The previous owner didn't sail much and there's no indication that it's blown out. From: W David Scobie <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:26 PM Thom: what year is your M15? how old is the main? :: Dave Scobie -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/11/14, Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Hello All. I've recently replaced the mast on my M15 and have noticed that when my mainsail is hoisted as far as it will go up the mast, and the luff is relatively taught, that the end of the boom droops at a downward angel from the gooseneck when the topping lift is eased. It's almost as if the foot of my mainsail is cut at an angle, but I can't confirm that at the moment. In looking at pictures online, it is difficult to tell if this is the way the boom is supposed to sit, or if there is something wrong with my rig. I have not yet installed a boom vang and I don't actually know how high off of the deck the boom should sit at the gooseneck. I have no cunningham rigged and to keep the boom from inching up in the mast, I usually tie it to the deck from a loop in the gooseneck. Can anyone enlighten me as to how hight off the deck my boom should sit and whether or not the boom should angle down as it moves aft? Thanks Thom

3 4

Just purchased M15 #191
by Thomas Nixon 13 Mar '14

13 Mar '14

I drove down to Bakersfield on Wednesday and brought home a 1981 M15, hull # 191, that looks like it was built yesterday. 639 mile round trip (I live about an hour drive north of San Francisco in Sonoma County) and the trip back was made all the more exciting by worries about the rusty trailer, but it all went well. Left at 9am and was home by 11:30 pm. As I said the boat is pristine. Maybe a bit over powered by a Tohatsu 5hp. The one area of concern I have is that edges where the hull meets the centerboard trunk appear not to be bonded in a few places, one as long as a 6 inch run. The previous owners report no leakage but their experience was only one sail on Lake Tahoe. Part of the seam looks to have been caulked with a white epoxy(?). Anyone have experience with this joint, what it's supposed to look like, or the making of repairs. Incidentally, I will be sailing the boat on Tomales Bay to begin with, a beautiful 6 mile long, 1 mile (avg.) wide bay bordered by Point Reyes National Seashore to the West, and with the San Andreas Fault running down the middle; working my way up to sailing San Francisco Bay, and North to San Pablo and Susiun Bays and the Sacramento River Delta. I have some experience with boats and the sea as a commercial fisherman, but I am new to sailing. I've taken some lessons on SF Bay and will beginning a six week course of lessons through Sailing Experience Adventures (SEA), a non-profit that teaches adult and youth sailing on SF Bay. I'm very excited about this new adventure. Thank you in advance for any help on my centerboard questions. Sincerely, Tom Nixon M15 #191

5 5

Re: M_Boats: proper boom placement
by W David Scobie 13 Mar '14

13 Mar '14

Thom: what year is your M15? how old is the main? :: Dave Scobie -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/11/14, Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Hello All. I've recently replaced the mast on my M15 and have noticed that when my mainsail is hoisted as far as it will go up the mast, and the luff is relatively taught, that the end of the boom droops at a downward angel from the gooseneck when the topping lift is eased. It's almost as if the foot of my mainsail is cut at an angle, but I can't confirm that at the moment. In looking at pictures online, it is difficult to tell if this is the way the boom is supposed to sit, or if there is something wrong with my rig. I have not yet installed a boom vang and I don't actually know how high off of the deck the boom should sit at the gooseneck. I have no cunningham rigged and to keep the boom from inching up in the mast, I usually tie it to the deck from a loop in the gooseneck. Can anyone enlighten me as to how hight off the deck my boom should sit and whether or not the boom should angle down as it moves aft? Thanks Thom

4 5

Trailer vehicle
by Thomas Buzzi 13 Mar '14

13 Mar '14

I use a Chevy Silverado small eight. The truck came with a trailering package, whatever that means. It tows the boat well, haven't tried any mountain passes with it though. They are farrrrrr away from southeast Texas.

2 1

Re: M_Boats: Hi Res Line Art
by Dave Scobie 13 Mar '14

13 Mar '14

Email jerry, jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org, as he has the sailplan drawing. :: Dave Scobie Henry Rodriguez <heinzir(a)gmail.com> wrote: >Can anyone point me to a high resolution line drawing/sail plan of an M17? > I have downloaded all of the ones on the MSOG site but when I try to >enlarge them they don't look so hot. I would like to print them out at >almost poster size (16 x 25) to hang in my "man cave," the downstairs >bathroom. I already have line art of Chiquita and our unnamed Force 5 >there. I would like to also get similar art of my new-to-me M17 as well as >my Mirror and El Toro Dinghies. > >All I need is high res versions of the basic line art. A graphic artist >friend on the VN23 forum will add the blueprint effect and get the sizing >right. Check out the album below to see what I mean. > > >https://plus.google.com/photos/101215806559438798863/albums/598954478629858… > >Thanks! > >-- >Henry >https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir

1 0

Cabin roof
by Thomas Buzzi 13 Mar '14

13 Mar '14

While lying on the vberth looking through the opening yesterday that used to have a cabin window in it I started wondering what it would take by way of a cross beam to carry the compression load of the mast so as to be able to remove the cabin post and open up the v berth ala the Sage. I am well able to fabricate something to fit but don't know it the cabin sides, about an inch thick since the chain plates are there in line with the mast step, and the adjacent deck structure would stand the strain. Since I have the boat pretty well torn up at present now would be a good time for such an alteration. Thoughts? fair winds, Tom B M 17 #258, 1978

1 0

Hi Res Line Art
by Henry Rodriguez 13 Mar '14

13 Mar '14

Can anyone point me to a high resolution line drawing/sail plan of an M17? I have downloaded all of the ones on the MSOG site but when I try to enlarge them they don't look so hot. I would like to print them out at almost poster size (16 x 25) to hang in my "man cave," the downstairs bathroom. I already have line art of Chiquita and our unnamed Force 5 there. I would like to also get similar art of my new-to-me M17 as well as my Mirror and El Toro Dinghies. All I need is high res versions of the basic line art. A graphic artist friend on the VN23 forum will add the blueprint effect and get the sizing right. Check out the album below to see what I mean. https://plus.google.com/photos/101215806559438798863/albums/598954478629858… Thanks! -- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir

1 0

Re: M_Boats: proper boom placement
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 12 Mar '14

12 Mar '14

Thom, nuther source of confusion here - You should have a 'downhaul' on the gooseneck if it is a sliding type. Before you run out and buy new sails (it is exciting to have new ones though) - rig a 'cunningham' (check Harken/Ronstan web sites for examples) - there may or may not be a grommet about 6-10"s above the tack cringle (grommet) run a line thru the cunningham grommet and make it adjustable to be able to provide luff tension to the mainsail - you may get away with the elderly sail for non racing purposes for awhile by tensioning the mainsail luff to move the draft forward. Outhaul will flatten lower section of main. A vang is essential - period - I will recommend we ALL get on a list for a sailmaker or two and get and practice their 'Trim Tips' here is a recent link from my sailmaker - This is NOT an advertisement - I am suggesting we all make use of info from the people in the business that design/build/race sails day in and out. Pattison Ullman,UK, North, and others have 'Trim Tips' that are aimed at improving our being able to get the most from our boats. Take pictures while sailing of your 'sail concern' and send them to your sailmaker friend for answers to your question. Just remember they ARE in business to sell sails - so buy one every week or two!! http://ullmansailsnewportbeach.blogspot.com/2014/02/sail-trim-unlocked.html Pattison has good articles too. In the interest of caring for your sails - roll them - OFF the boom OR parallel to the spar (not around the boom) and gently tie the sail - wide 3" or wider Velcro works nicely from Home Depot or __. Store your sails in an environment YOU are comfortable in - garage,boat, shed - all leave much to be desired for storage locations - treat them like royalty and you will be rewarded with long life and good performance from your sails - even the elderly ones! (my sails are all stored in 'sausage bags' in my home office -wife doesn't mind - Happy Hubby=Happy Life) Treat ur sails like _____ and they will return the favor - Be Nice to 'em If you want to go 'hardcore' - Home Depot -ABS/PVC 4" drain pipe makes a nice mandrel to roll your sails up on for storage. Meat of the Matter If we slack off on sails and sail controls, eventually the performance - Sailing fun - (not necessarily talking racing) - suffers, and the experience is a shadow of what it can be -It is pretty amazing how these little boats scoot thru the water/air using adjustable 'wings' - take care of the 'wings' and make effective adjustments to them and it is MAGICAL ! Pretty cool Solar Powered transportation ! My rant and opining are on hold for another week or two - excuse the 'gas' - your mileage WILL vary- always wear eye protection, and IT IS HIP to WEAR a PFD WHILE SAILING ! Be Safe ! Have Fun, Go Sailing ! ! GO BTW - in the 70's-80's it was common to see 'droopy booms' max luff, foot and luff -head to clew dimensions made for some interesting shapes - I have an older North mainsail that shows designed -in-droop, -not too common nowadays. If your sail was sewn by Mr McKibbin it is collectible and probably worn out - he did nice ones in the day - had many a green sailbag - where is that Wayback Machine?. Hard Sails, Hood narrow panels,McKibbins - geezer talk...... J In a message dated 3/12/2014 12:04:09 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, wdscobie(a)yahoo.com writes: Thom: with the sliding gooseneck you need to have a line that keeps the 'mast end' of the boom from rising. you also need a vang to keep the boom from rising when off the wind. the vang is also used when going to weather based on the conditions and your preferences in adjusting sail shape. be sure to review the information shared by JudyB ... i agree with all she said (yes, it is true that as sail become older than five or so years need to be replaced even if not heavy used). a sail original to your boat is way past replacement date. :: Dave Scobie -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/11/14, Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Subject: Re: M_Boats: proper boom placement To: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> Date: Tuesday, March 11, 2014, 7:04 PM Hi Dave.Not sure who made my mainsail, but I'll check.Is it safe to say that the boom should sit wherever it wants to naturally sit on the mast when the sail is fully raised? I guess I'm also wondering if a boom vang is sufficient for keeping downward tension on the boom, or if you advise also rigging some kind of downhaul from the bottom of the gooseneck to the deck (i.e. some means of locking the gooseneck in place).Thanks,Thom From: W David Scobie <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> To: Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: proper boom placement Thom: was your main made by McKibben (sic)? my M15's ('84) and my M17's ('83) mains were/are McK sails. both set the aft end of the boom low (good for hitting heads). when i talked to Harry Pattison, with E/P sailmakers, about this his guess (besides the sails being old and blow out) is McK cut the sails this way to gain a few extra square feet of sail area. when Harry made the new main for my M15 it was cut so the boom was 'flat'. i had Harry re-cut the foot of my M17's blown out old main to be loose foot and set the boom flat. :: Dave Scobie -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/11/14, Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Dave.1987. The main is older I think, but in good shape. The previous owner didn't sail much and there's no indication that it's blown out. From: W David Scobie <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:26 PM Thom: what year is your M15? how old is the main? :: Dave Scobie -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/11/14, Thom Loftus <thom_loftus(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Hello All. I've recently replaced the mast on my M15 and have noticed that when my mainsail is hoisted as far as it will go up the mast, and the luff is relatively taught, that the end of the boom droops at a downward angel from the gooseneck when the topping lift is eased. It's almost as if the foot of my mainsail is cut at an angle, but I can't confirm that at the moment. In looking at pictures online, it is difficult to tell if this is the way the boom is supposed to sit, or if there is something wrong with my rig. I have not yet installed a boom vang and I don't actually know how high off of the deck the boom should sit at the gooseneck. I have no cunningham rigged and to keep the boom from inching up in the mast, I usually tie it to the deck from a loop in the gooseneck. Can anyone enlighten me as to how hight off the deck my boom should sit and whether or not the boom should angle down as it moves aft? Thanks Thom

2 1

Re: M_Boats: Bow chocks for M17 with aluminum toe-rail.
by Dave Scobie 11 Mar '14

11 Mar '14

My M17, Sweet Pea, as aluminum toe rails and has chocks prior owner installed. They work fine. When I return to the shop from the arizona trip I'm currently on I'll take pictures to share. :: dave scobie :: m17 #373 sweet pea - www.m17-375.webs.com swwheatley(a)comcast.net wrote: >I am planning to keep my 1976 M17 (aluminum toe-rails) on a mooring this summer, but it is curiously bereft of bow chocks and I'm trying to decide what to do about that. The toe-rails are pretty smooth; do people just put some chafe gear on their mooring pendant and let it hang over the side? If not, what have people done to integrate bow chocks with the aluminum toe-rail? Photos of particularly elegant solutions would be appreciated. Thanks.

11 11