December 2007 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Rowing an M15
by Rick Langer 05 Dec '07

05 Dec '07

Gary, The 10' oars seem to be the right length, but the height of the handles requires that I raise the bridge deck seat by about 10 inches. I used a small six-pack cooler to sit on. Very astute observation concerning the bow wave of the Nymph. It has definitely been a problem, but at least, it has always been a good excuse for me being the last one to the anchorage. Your suggestion might work, but I think the rocker on the Nymph is so extreme that lowering the eye won't change the upturned bottom from plowing through the water. The dink tracks well and probably wouldn't create a noticeable drag on a bigger boat, but being half the length of the M15 the drag is significant. Over the last couple of years most of the east coast M cruisers have converted to inflatable kayaks. They store in a small suitcase, inflate in a couple of minutes with a battery operated air pump, paddle surprisingly well and are very seaworthy. Some of us have even towed them. I flipped mind towing it in about 15 knots on the beam in the North Channel. I think the solution is to bring it up close to the stern or even lift the bow of the kayak up unto the stern. One slight downside is that there's a learning curve when it comes to getting in and out of the kayak from the mother ship. The saying goes something like this, "If you haven't made a fool of yourself getting into or out of your kayak, your about to". Eventually a workable system in mastered. Now the Nymph is easy to get into and out of, but that hasn't always been the case. There was this one particular cruise on the Chesapeake and I ain't naming names, but all the guys who were there are probably already laughing. Anyway in the midst of most us taking cockpit showers, just after anchoring, this one particular fellow lost his shirt in the wind. Did I say particular or peculiar? Well the shirt was moving away fast. The peculiar guy says, "Rick go get my shirt" and I, not having a stitch of clothes on says, "I can't you take my dink". He rushes across two or three boats and then steps into the bow of the Nymph. Well as you can see in that picture, by the time the bow got to the water it had momentum on it's side and the boat did a nose dive with the peculiar guy looking scared still standing in the bow. Not only was the shirt getting further away, but the water was filled with jellyfish (the stinging kind). That peculiar guy had perseverance though. Once we pulled him out of the drink he hop into that half swamped Nymph and retrieved his shirt. He was much more graceful getting out of the Nymph. Rick M15 #337 Bluebird > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:04:02 -0800 > From: Gary M Hyde <gmhyde1(a)mac.com> > Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rowing an M15 > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Message-ID: <6460BB23-5922-4371-B174-FEAEC52C33E6(a)mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Rick: > Nice web site! Was 10 feet about the right length for the oars, or > would longer or shorter be better? > I wonder if putting a towing eye down near the waterline on the bow > of you dingy would reduce the bow wave and make it tow better. > > --Gary Hyde > 2005 M17 sailboat #637 'Hydeaway 2' > We can't change the wind, but we can trim our sails. > > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Rick Langer wrote: > >> I made a pair of 10' oars that mount on oarlock cleats located on >> top of the coaming at about mid cockpit. The reason for the >> oarlock/cleat is that there were cleats already in that position >> when I got the boat. >> >> I rowed the boat for seven miles one totally windless day, one way >> with the current and the other way with no current half the way and >> a little push the rest of the way (Hudson River).. It was OK, but >> without the current it was no fun. I figure the boat is just too >> fat to row. I intended to carry the oars on the boat (for >> something to due when the wind dies), but between getting in the >> way and poor rowing quality, I leave them home most of the time. >> There's a picture of the setup on my website. >> >> http://www.sporadicfanatic.com/ >> >> Hey Frank, it's really cold here too and snowy. This is the >> earliest winter we've had in twenty years. >> >> Rick >> M15 #337 Bluebird

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re: re: M15: Rowing; Sculling
by Steve R. 05 Dec '07

05 Dec '07

Gary I can not promise you a free lunch. But I believe the principals I touch on will save you energy thereby reducing both your appetite and grocery bill. You have raised an excellent point about the relationship between boat speed and oar speed. Please feel free to review and comment on these numbers. Let us assume that an oar with a 10 ft. lever arm is used to propel a boat at 1 mile per hour. The boat speed may also be expressed as being roughly 1.5 feet per second (fps). Assume the rower swings through an arc of 90 degrees and recovery time equals rowing time. Consider the rate that the rower strokes. If the rower makes 30 strokes per minute, the oar blade is traveling at 15 fps, or 10 times faster than the boat speed. At 15 strokes per minute, the oar is traveling 7.5 fps, or 5X boat speed. For 10 strokes per minute, the oar is traveling just under 4 fps, or 2+ times boat speed. I must conclude that the rower is wasting a phenomenal amount of kinetic energy. Since kinetic energy is proportional to the mass of the displaced water multiplied by velocity squared, the faster you move an oar blade through the water the more energy it takes. It is better to have a large blade moving slowly than a small blade moving rapidly. I whole heartedly agree with your statement regarding short oars for slow boats. These calculations show that long oars are a waste of energy for slow boats. Therefore I repeat what I said in my initial post. I believe the geometry is wrong for efficient use of oars with our small boats. To improve the status quo, it would be better to use a short oar through an oar port, or a longer oar with an oarlock mounted on an outrigger arm. I did not say it would be easy to do. I said it would be more efficient. I hope that collectively we could come up with some idea of how to do either or both of these things. There is no doubt in my mind that some optimum combination of oar length, blade size and oarlock position will improve rowing our boats. I did not arrive at my initial post by calculation, but by observing a number of Oriental craft in magazine photos and travel logs that use a single oar hung over the transom. The oar tends to be slightly longer than the vessel, and is usually rowed by someone standing near the bow while stroking at a leisurely pace. The operator is often a small child. This method of propulsion has been described by European writers for centuries. It may very well be several thousand years old. If this principal of leverage works in the Orient it seems to me that it would work on this side of the globe as well. However, those who try it on this side of the Pacific stand six feet from the transom and proclaim that it is difficult to do. If you moved to the bow it seems to me that it would be easier, but that is basically impossible with the cabin and deck structure of our boats. Is there some other method that we could try? If you have a suggestion I am all ears. steve Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington, KY --- gmhyde1(a)mac.com wrote: Well I think we may have a slight case of not considering all the factors. In the past day or so I ran across a sight (somewhere) that said you use short oars for a slow boat and long oars for a fast boat. Force on the water is important, but speed of the oar tip relative to the boat is also important. Work is force times distance, and power is force times distance per unit time; i.e., force times velocity. Moving the pivot point out so that you put more force on the water means you have to move the handle further and faster for a given boat speed, so there is a tradeoff. I find that my oars have the pivot point about 23 inches from the handle on an oar that is about 6.5 feet long for a 10-foot rowboat. So you don't go 4.5 times further with the same effort. There ain't no free lunch. --Gary On Dec 3, 2007, at 5:34 PM, Steve R. wrote: > Howard, Gary, and others: > > Let me throw some numbers at you for your comment. > > First, assume there is no friction or other losses. :{) > > Assume the blade of that 15 ft. oar is 3 ft long. The distance > from the handle end to the center of the blade is then 13 and 1/2 ft. > > Assume the distance from the handle to the oarlock is 3 ft. > > The distance from the oarlock to the center of the blade is then 10 > and 1/2 ft. > > If you apply 10 pounds of pressure to the oar handle, you only > transfer 2.9 pounds of force to the water. That is, 10 pounds > multiplied by the ratio of 3 over 10 and 1/2. > > If you could locate the oarlock at the midpoint of the 13 and ½ ft. > distance, then 10 pounds of force would be transferred to the water > for every 10 pounds you pull. So an arm would have to extend > roughly 4 ft. from each side to support the oarlock. By doing > this, you have multiplied your rowing effort by a factor of 3.5. > If you could row for 1 mile before, now you can row for 3.5 miles > with the same effort. > > There is an additional benefit as well by reducing the arc. By my > quick calculations, if you swing an oar through a 90 degre arc, > only 63% of your effort goes into propelling the boat forward. The > reminder goes to pushing water away from the boat at the beginning > of the stroke, and pushing water toward the boat at the end of the > stroke. If you could reduce the arc to 60 degrees, your propulsion > fraction increases to 70%. For 40 degrees of arc it is 80%. I > think with oarlocks on the coaming you would have roughly a 90 > degree arc if you do “full extension” rowing. By moving the > oarlock to the mid point it is closer to 30 degrees. > > By combining both factors, you would go from rowing one mile to > about 4.5 miles with the same effort. > > I have run these numbers by non-sailors and they agree with this > analysis. What do you guys think? > > steve > > Steve R. > M-15 #119 > Lexington, KY > > > ************************************************************* > > I thought the way Bob put those oarlocks on was pretty neat. Have > wondered how well it worked to row the boat. I've also heard of guys > fitting oar locks into the top of sheet winches, which are about the > right location, but that leaves the oar height somewhat high. > > On the Japanese sculling oar, I've built one of those too. First > attempt > was a crude one to see how well it worked. Initial attempt on the > Spindrift was disappointing as it didn't want to rotate in the > oarlock, > so I went back and modified it some. Didn't have a chance to try it > again and it's gotten pretty cold now for boating. I think it might > work, but so would the other one. > > http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/haudsley/Picture260.jpg > > http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/haudsley/Picture262.jpg > > http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/haudsley/Picture263.jpg > > The Spindrift gets rowed or sailed. The oars on it do pretty well and > 1.5 to 2 knots is pretty easy to get. You can cover a lot of ground > doing 2 knots. This was just playing around on it. I view the rowing > option on the Montgomery as a third, emergency form of propulsion. > Something I know will work when there is no wind and the motor won't > start. > > ***************************************************** > > Rowing the M17: Check out the Strawanza photos at the following link. > Bob Eeg mounted oarlocks on the toe rail track and used 12-foot break- > down oars. > http://www.MSOGPhotoSite.com/mpage.htm > > I'm playing around with the idea of a Japanese sculling oar design, > called a "Ro", ironically. It places the blade vertically at rest > rather than horizontally and may be more efficient. > The following web site discusses that design with video. > http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/articles/howto/sculling_oar/ > > --Gary Hyde > 2005 M17 sailboat #637 'Hydeaway 2' > We can't change the wind, but we can trim our sails. > > > On Dec 2, 2007, at 8:41 AM, Steve R. wrote: > >> Hi Harry, >> >> Welcome to the group. >> >> You raise some interesting points for an off season discussion. >> >> I have been pondering a post I read here (I think) recently about >> the difficulty of using a single oar as an Oriental yuloh. I >> believe the geometry is wrong for efficient use of oars with our >> small boats. Our boats have a narrow beam, short cockpit and high >> freeboard. If you place an oarlock on the top of the coaming or >> transom, you have poor leverage for seated rowing or use of a yuloh >> (yulohing?). Some people stand up, which increases the angle of >> the blade in the water, and improves the leverage situation by >> allowing use of a shorter oar. I would be comfortable standing in >> calm water, but not in extreme conditions. >> >> So…if I HAD to use an oar I would think about installing oar >> ports. The ports would be located about waist high along the sides >> if I wanted to row or in the transom for a yuloh. Bolger has used >> oar ports as did the Dovekie. In extreme weather the ports could >> also function as cockpit scuppers or be closed off if necessary. >> Ports would also have the advantage of allowing the use of shorter >> oars. >> >> Or..I would consider using some sort of an arm that would locate >> the oar lock several feet outboard. The leverage situation would >> be improved, although longer oars would be needed. Modern racing >> shells often have oar locks mounted outboard. >> >> And..I would give a lot of thought to a sliding seat with a >> pivoting brace for the feet. >> >> steve >> >> Steve R. >> M-15 #119 >> Lexington, KY >> >> ************************************************ >> >> Greetings from N. shore of L. Superior: -15F,snow& wind last >> couple of >> nights but at least my M15 is safely tucked away in its dome shelter! >> Bob Eeg's tale of the specially equipped M17 that he constructed >> for the >> Austrian man was fascinating and raised a couple of questions about >> the >> M15: (1) Has anyone tried rowing one, and if so how was it? and (2) >> What >> were the worst conditions a M15 has survived intact (wind, waves) >> with >> all sails down and only motor power? Pardon me if these questions >> have >> been asked before- I joined just last year. If they have please >> point me >> in the right direction and I'll check it out. Thanks and safe >> sailing to >> the lucky souls in the south. Harry Elmslie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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OREGON COAST WEATHER
by Arnold Sharpe 05 Dec '07

05 Dec '07

Our Oregon weather has been nasty for 3-4 days but appears to be slacking off. I would not want to be offshore in anything much less my M-17. That said however one should recall that John Guzzwell sailed his little "Trekka" (a 20ft yawl) down our coast way back in 1955 and stated that the weather was the worst he ever endured in his whole circumnavigation. His book is great reading...see...."TREKKA ROUND THE WORLD" by John Guzzwell. Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 'LITTLE BREEZE"

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Link to float coats hard to find
by Bill Lamica 04 Dec '07

04 Dec '07

The site that has all the info on float has bad links. Duh Here is the link to G02marine prices (I have no idea who they are) www.go2marine.com/category.do?no=12147 Now that I've studied Float Jackets I want one. Not for sailing, but for walking outside here in Oregon. It's raining hard! The Rogue River is rising! 23 people have fallen off their bicycles and almost drowned. Everyone looks tanned... but it's rust! Remember the question of a 15 M-Boat in the Oregon off shore weather? If one was to put on a Strawanza type door, make the cabin watertight and most important add a couple of straps or hand holds inside the cabin. It may be safer in the M15 than in a 40 footer when (not if) the roll comes. Imagine bouncing around in the cabin of one of those big guys. Might be fun for some one 30 years younger than I. Me... I'd take the bus. Bill

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Float Coats
by Jim Sadler 04 Dec '07

04 Dec '07

Any of you skippers have suggestions on float coats. I would like to get one for my first mate for Christmas. Captain James Albert Sadler skipper sailing vessel Pelican M-15 jimsadler(a)jascopacific.com

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Re: M_Boats: M15 and wild conditions
by bownez＠juno.com 04 Dec '07

04 Dec '07

Well said Frank and Mark! I agree. I seem to recall the coast of Oregon is where they do training for coast guard rescue personnel and Navy Seals due to the wild conditions. Personally, I'm out sailing to enjoy myself, relax, experience nature, meet with fellow small boats owners, and to explore. Granted, we will all sooner or later experience trying conditions, but I won't be looking for them. More snow on the way for me... Bones in Mpls

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Trimaran
by Bill Lamica 04 Dec '07

04 Dec '07

I posted Brian Gilbert's battery box install. He saw the rotten write up I did so he took time off his writing job to do it right. If you want particulars on the box work see that recent album. Gary Hyde made me aware of a beautiful home built trimaran that sails and races the Northwest. I contacted the owner and started a page for his boat about 14 months ago. Well, it's finished... finally Both are available at the What's New section http://www.msogphotosite.com/WhasNew.html Bill

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Rowing an M15
by Rick Langer 04 Dec '07

04 Dec '07

I made a pair of 10' oars that mount on oarlock cleats located on top of the coaming at about mid cockpit. The reason for the oarlock/cleat is that there were cleats already in that position when I got the boat. I rowed the boat for seven miles one totally windless day, one way with the current and the other way with no current half the way and a little push the rest of the way (Hudson River).. It was OK, but without the current it was no fun. I figure the boat is just too fat to row. I intended to carry the oars on the boat (for something to due when the wind dies), but between getting in the way and poor rowing quality, I leave them home most of the time. There's a picture of the setup on my website. http://www.sporadicfanatic.com/ Hey Frank, it's really cold here too and snowy. This is the earliest winter we've had in twenty years. Rick M15 #337 Bluebird

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re: M15: Rowing; Worst conditions
by Steve R. 04 Dec '07

04 Dec '07

Hi Harry, Welcome to the group. You raise some interesting points for an off season discussion. I have been pondering a post I read here (I think) recently about the difficulty of using a single oar as an Oriental yuloh. I believe the geometry is wrong for efficient use of oars with our small boats. Our boats have a narrow beam, short cockpit and high freeboard. If you place an oarlock on the top of the coaming or transom, you have poor leverage for seated rowing or use of a yuloh (yulohing?). Some people stand up, which increases the angle of the blade in the water, and improves the leverage situation by allowing use of a shorter oar. I would be comfortable standing in calm water, but not in extreme conditions. So…if I HAD to use an oar I would think about installing oar ports. The ports would be located about waist high along the sides if I wanted to row or in the transom for a yuloh. Bolger has used oar ports as did the Dovekie. In extreme weather the ports could also function as cockpit scuppers or be closed off if necessary. Ports would also have the advantage of allowing the use of shorter oars. Or..I would consider using some sort of an arm that would locate the oar lock several feet outboard. The leverage situation would be improved, although longer oars would be needed. Modern racing shells often have oar locks mounted outboard. And..I would give a lot of thought to a sliding seat with a pivoting brace for the feet. steve Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington, KY ************************************************ Greetings from N. shore of L. Superior: -15F,snow& wind last couple of nights but at least my M15 is safely tucked away in its dome shelter! Bob Eeg's tale of the specially equipped M17 that he constructed for the Austrian man was fascinating and raised a couple of questions about the M15: (1) Has anyone tried rowing one, and if so how was it? and (2) What were the worst conditions a M15 has survived intact (wind, waves) with all sails down and only motor power? Pardon me if these questions have been asked before- I joined just last year. If they have please point me in the right direction and I'll check it out. Thanks and safe sailing to the lucky souls in the south. Harry Elmslie

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re: re: M15: Rowing; Sculling
by Steve R. 04 Dec '07

04 Dec '07

Howard, Gary, and others: Let me throw some numbers at you for your comment. First, assume there is no friction or other losses. :{) Assume the blade of that 15 ft. oar is 3 ft long. The distance from the handle end to the center of the blade is then 13 and 1/2 ft. Assume the distance from the handle to the oarlock is 3 ft. The distance from the oarlock to the center of the blade is then 10 and 1/2 ft. If you apply 10 pounds of pressure to the oar handle, you only transfer 2.9 pounds of force to the water. That is, 10 pounds multiplied by the ratio of 3 over 10 and 1/2. If you could locate the oarlock at the midpoint of the 13 and ½ ft. distance, then 10 pounds of force would be transferred to the water for every 10 pounds you pull. So an arm would have to extend roughly 4 ft. from each side to support the oarlock. By doing this, you have multiplied your rowing effort by a factor of 3.5. If you could row for 1 mile before, now you can row for 3.5 miles with the same effort. There is an additional benefit as well by reducing the arc. By my quick calculations, if you swing an oar through a 90 degre arc, only 63% of your effort goes into propelling the boat forward. The reminder goes to pushing water away from the boat at the beginning of the stroke, and pushing water toward the boat at the end of the stroke. If you could reduce the arc to 60 degrees, your propulsion fraction increases to 70%. For 40 degrees of arc it is 80%. I think with oarlocks on the coaming you would have roughly a 90 degree arc if you do “full extension” rowing. By moving the oarlock to the mid point it is closer to 30 degrees. By combining both factors, you would go from rowing one mile to about 4.5 miles with the same effort. I have run these numbers by non-sailors and they agree with this analysis. What do you guys think? steve Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington, KY ************************************************************* I thought the way Bob put those oarlocks on was pretty neat. Have wondered how well it worked to row the boat. I've also heard of guys fitting oar locks into the top of sheet winches, which are about the right location, but that leaves the oar height somewhat high. On the Japanese sculling oar, I've built one of those too. First attempt was a crude one to see how well it worked. Initial attempt on the Spindrift was disappointing as it didn't want to rotate in the oarlock, so I went back and modified it some. Didn't have a chance to try it again and it's gotten pretty cold now for boating. I think it might work, but so would the other one. http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/haudsley/Picture260.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/haudsley/Picture262.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/haudsley/Picture263.jpg The Spindrift gets rowed or sailed. The oars on it do pretty well and 1.5 to 2 knots is pretty easy to get. You can cover a lot of ground doing 2 knots. This was just playing around on it. I view the rowing option on the Montgomery as a third, emergency form of propulsion. Something I know will work when there is no wind and the motor won't start. ***************************************************** Rowing the M17: Check out the Strawanza photos at the following link. Bob Eeg mounted oarlocks on the toe rail track and used 12-foot break- down oars. http://www.MSOGPhotoSite.com/mpage.htm I'm playing around with the idea of a Japanese sculling oar design, called a "Ro", ironically. It places the blade vertically at rest rather than horizontally and may be more efficient. The following web site discusses that design with video. http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/articles/howto/sculling_oar/ --Gary Hyde 2005 M17 sailboat #637 'Hydeaway 2' We can't change the wind, but we can trim our sails. On Dec 2, 2007, at 8:41 AM, Steve R. wrote: > Hi Harry, > > Welcome to the group. > > You raise some interesting points for an off season discussion. > > I have been pondering a post I read here (I think) recently about > the difficulty of using a single oar as an Oriental yuloh. I > believe the geometry is wrong for efficient use of oars with our > small boats. Our boats have a narrow beam, short cockpit and high > freeboard. If you place an oarlock on the top of the coaming or > transom, you have poor leverage for seated rowing or use of a yuloh > (yulohing?). Some people stand up, which increases the angle of > the blade in the water, and improves the leverage situation by > allowing use of a shorter oar. I would be comfortable standing in > calm water, but not in extreme conditions. > > So…if I HAD to use an oar I would think about installing oar > ports. The ports would be located about waist high along the sides > if I wanted to row or in the transom for a yuloh. Bolger has used > oar ports as did the Dovekie. In extreme weather the ports could > also function as cockpit scuppers or be closed off if necessary. > Ports would also have the advantage of allowing the use of shorter > oars. > > Or..I would consider using some sort of an arm that would locate > the oar lock several feet outboard. The leverage situation would > be improved, although longer oars would be needed. Modern racing > shells often have oar locks mounted outboard. > > And..I would give a lot of thought to a sliding seat with a > pivoting brace for the feet. > > steve > > Steve R. > M-15 #119 > Lexington, KY > > ************************************************ > > Greetings from N. shore of L. Superior: -15F,snow& wind last couple of > nights but at least my M15 is safely tucked away in its dome shelter! > Bob Eeg's tale of the specially equipped M17 that he constructed > for the > Austrian man was fascinating and raised a couple of questions about > the > M15: (1) Has anyone tried rowing one, and if so how was it? and (2) > What > were the worst conditions a M15 has survived intact (wind, waves) with > all sails down and only motor power? Pardon me if these questions have > been asked before- I joined just last year. If they have please > point me > in the right direction and I'll check it out. Thanks and safe > sailing to > the lucky souls in the south. Harry Elmslie > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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