I haven't followed the rap scene for a few years but never got the impression that El P had been shunned by the rap community. Consequently, I'm not familiar with the Anticon crew, but maybe one reason they haven't made an impact is that they're not located in/near the large cities (isn't Sole from ME)? It's my impression that the "sellout"/"keep it real" thing isn't as prominent in rap as, say, in the mid 90s, when people were attacking Hammer and Puffy and rappers who had a more R'n'B edge. I'm thinking Tribe's "Check the Rhyme", Fat Joe's "Shit Iz Real", the various "Keep it Real" refrains we heard at that time (KRS "I represent the real hip-hop", Jeminas, etc.), the poor reception of Big Daddy Kane's later albums (which I don't recall being THAT bad). Does anybody today accuse Nas and Jay-Z of selling out? Who are the sell-outs? I haven't heard the latest Outkast but was confused at the critical acclaim heaped upon Stankonia. It's a decent album, but a step back from the P-Funk craziness of Aquemini. And terribly misogynistic too. Ben

From: Gavin Castleton <gavin@gruvismalt.com> To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: Pop innovators (was The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:49:10 -0500

My comment wasn't unfounded. Anticon has been virtually blacklisted for their various attempts to steer hip hop into something more abstract. I'm not saying Anticon is good or bad, I'm saying that their attempts are not welcome by the majority of the hip hop community. Perhaps it is because they're white. There is a strong distaste amongst hip hop creators for the idea of white people abstracting an art form they recently abducted. I disagree that you could make that "tired accusation" about any genre. Purists are not nearly as prominent (please note, I didn't say "Purists don't exist in any other American music forms") in any other American music form as they are in hip hop. You don't hear people getting angry at Radiohead for pushing rock in a more electronic direction. You don't hear anyone crying about what Rachels has done with classical music... the idea of a pop purist is hilarious. But in hip hop, purists are in the majority. Even the most sparkly of MCs rap about how everyone else is a sell out. That's the point. And black (or "african americans" if you're afraid of being called a racist) hip listeners and performers are not excited about the advent of yet another hijacking (though most would argue it happened already, way back in the 80's). And they're not quiet about it. And the negative result of that clinging is that hip hop is veritably stagnant. When anticon or El P try to push it outwards, they get shunned. When Outkast do it, it's "innovative." Reverse racism is just as stupid and detrimental to the art form. Neither is pushing out far enough in my opinion. If you want to shout racism to avoid the discussion, go for it. but I'd say that's the more "tired accusation." If you don't think race plays a role in the perception of hip hop by a nation of music listeners, than you're not only naive, but you don't listen to hip hop. For the record, yes, I listen to a lot of hip hop. And I'm white. And having explored much of the US underground hip hop, I find that most producers that consider themselves makers of hip hop are constantly segregated into sister genres like "trip hop," "electronica" and "drum n bass." Gavin

PS. Yes, I'm wearing a white sheet over my head as I type.

Joseph Zitt wrote:

...

On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 14:53, Gavin Castleton wrote:

...

There are far more innovative producers in Hip Hop. But one must remember, if you start doing anything really innovative with hip hop, than it can no longer be called "hip hop."

One could make this tired accusation about any genre. Remember when they derided Coltrane as "anti-jazz"?

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