Years and years after her last album, vocalist-pianist-composer Robin Holcomb is finally set to release a new disc of her lovely, melancholy songs. Nonesuch is going to issue 'The Big Time' on June 11. The songs are drenched in Holcomb's standard deep rootsiness - some of them are actually songs from the Harry Smith anthology - but they're also marked by her unique harmonic sense, with unusual chords and voicings in abundance. The album somehow once again manages to transcend the wide gap between the singer-songwriter format and more adventurous fare, though Zornlisters who find little to like about recent Frisell and Horvitz projects may just scratch their heads. Hard for me to say much more than that, since I'm listening to it for the first time, but it very much picks up where 'Rockabye' left off in 1992. The band is Zony Mash (Wayne Horvitz, Keith Lowe, Timothy Young and Andy Roth) with guest appearances by Kate and Anna McGarrigle, Julie Wolf (Ani DiFranco band), Doug Wieselman, Danny Barnes and Eyvind Kang. And best of all, apparently she's finally ready to tour again. Hopefully, more details to come. For Patrice, a few specifics: Robin Holcomb: The Big Time (2002, Nonesuch 79653) 1. Pretend 4:20 2. Like I Care 4:30 3. Sit Right Down 2:20 4. You Look So Much Better 3:46 5. A Lazy Farmer Boy 2:44 6. If You Can't Make the Curve 3:31 7. I Want to Tell the Story 3:40 8. Engine 143 6:01 9. I Tried to Believe 4:12 10. The Big Time 3:14 11. Tell the Good Friend on Your Left 4:40 12. Lullaby 1:23 Produced by Wayne Horvitz. All songs by Robin Holcomb except 5 and 8, from the Harry Smith Anthology Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Robin Holcolmb, "Sit Right Down," 'The Big Time' (Nonesuch)
You're right. The missing word is "mainstream," which belongs immediately before "singer-songwriter" - the operative notion being that many of these songs wouldn't sound out of place on a Triple-A format radio station, and yet there's usually something really interesting happening just below the surface since Holcomb's such a unique and distinctive composer. The connection between her more abstract compositions and her songwriting is very clear. She's got a very distinctive musical thumbprint, in that regard. I guess I was typing too quickly once this thing fell out of its envelope! My public apologies especially to Skip, who's written more than a few genuinely great songs himself. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Robin Holcomb, "I Want to Tell the Story," 'The Big Time' (Nonesuch) -----Original Message----- From: skip Heller [mailto:velaires@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 4:13 PM To: ssmith36@sprynet.com; Zorn-List (E-mail) Subject: Re: Robin Holcomb, at last on 6/1/02 1:02 PM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote:
the wide gap between the singer-songwriter format and more adventurous fare
That's a loaded sentence fragment if ever there was such a thing. skip h NP: BEST OF LIGHTNIN' SLIM
On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 16:18:44 -0400 "Steve Smith" wrote:
I guess I was typing too quickly once this thing fell out of its envelope! My public apologies especially to Skip, who's written more than a few genuinely great songs himself.
I keep on reading and reading again what Steve wrote and I can't find any reason for him to apologize. He finds words to describe Robin's very personal style of songwriting, words that exhibit a genuine interest in her art and understanding of her sensibility. I would have said something similar in spirit, although without Steve's ease with words. Can Skip explain what Steve said that is so outrageous (unless of course if it so obvious and I am just totally clueless)? Patrice.
on 6/3/02 9:46 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
Can Skip explain what Steve said that is so outrageous (unless of course if it so obvious and I am just totally clueless)?
Patrice.
Gladly and happily. The term "singer/songwriter" has been categorically stigmatized. Whenever the term is thrown around, it almost automatically infers some self-congradulatory self-piteous, professionally sensitive tripe, ala Cat Stevens or Jackson Browne. It (the term) alludes any kind positive connotation, and there are really amazing singer-songwriters in the most classic sense of the term who do not fall into the "professionally sensitive" mold -- Tom Waits, Lyle Lovett, Randy Newman, Dave Alvin, Lauryn Hill, and Paul Westerberg have all referred to themselves as singer-songwriters. But the mainstream perception of the term has lost any value, largely because it means "someone like Dan Fogelberg". skip h
On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:57:34 -0700 skip Heller wrote:
The term "singer/songwriter" has been categorically stigmatized. Whenever the term is thrown around, it almost automatically infers some self-congradulatory self-piteous, professionally sensitive tripe, ala Cat Stevens or Jackson Browne. It (the term) alludes any kind positive connotation, and there are really amazing singer-songwriters in the most classic sense of the term who do not fall into the "professionally sensitive" mold -- Tom Waits, Lyle Lovett, Randy Newman, Dave Alvin, Lauryn Hill, and Paul Westerberg have all referred to themselves as singer-songwriters. But the mainstream perception of the term has lost any value, largely because it means "someone like Dan Fogelberg".
I am really puzzled by what you are saying because I never realized the negative connotation of the expression. I thought it was supposed to mean that somebody was not just an interpreter, but also somebody capable of writing songs. And when you say "categorically stigmatized", you mean by who? And to help me, what expression is considered positive for somebody who both sings and writes songs? Patrice.
on 6/3/02 10:03 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
On Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:57:34 -0700 skip Heller wrote:
I am really puzzled by what you are saying because I never realized the negative connotation of the expression.
I thought it was supposed to mean that somebody was not just an interpreter, but also somebody capable of writing songs.
In the pure sense, you're right.
And when you say "categorically stigmatized", you mean by who?
American journalists in the wake of punk rock, mostly, when anyone with an accoustic guitar was subject to blanket ridicule. Which is probably why Elvis Costello was never labelled a singer-songwriter (nor was Graham Parker).
And to help me, what expression is considered positive for somebody who both sings and writes songs?
The term has been slighly redeemed in the late 80s, largely by guys like Dave Alvin, Steve Earle and Lyle Lovett, who were each a big hit with the press, but the term still -- in the US -- is generally uttered with at least a hint of scorn. skip h
Yeah, even I still snicker up my sleeve at Tracey Chapman and the Indigo Girls sometimes... ;-) But Aimee Mann is awesome. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com -----Original Message----- From: skip Heller [mailto:velaires@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 1:23 PM The term has been slighly redeemed in the late 80s, largely by guys like Dave Alvin, Steve Earle and Lyle Lovett, who were each a big hit with the press, but the term still -- in the US -- is generally uttered with at least a hint of scorn.
Skip is on the money here, through I'd perhaps substitute "James Taylor" for "Jackson Browne," who at least gained considerably more rock'n'roll cache during his "Running on Empty" and "Lawyers in Love" phase. Otherwise, for a popular vision of what "singer-songwriter" has come to imply in the public sphere, one need only recall Bluto Blutarski's response to hearing "Twelfth of Never" on the stairway in Delta House... ;-) But as a fan of each and every one of the singer-songwriters he mentions - as well as Bob Dylan, Willie Nelson, Mark Eitzel, Gordon Haskell, Bob Mould, Mark "E" Everett, Michael Penn... and Skip Heller, too - mine was a most unintended slight. All I really meant was that Robin's work was harmonically advanced, clever and inventive, yet for the most part a listener hearing her songs on the radio, played between those of, say, Cat Stevens and Dan Fogelberg, wouldn't automatically turn the dial (unless, of course, they couldn't abide her distinctive prairie voice, which poses no problem for me). Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Tobias Picker, 'Therese Raquin' - Dallas Opera (Chandos) -----Original Message----- From: skip Heller [mailto:velaires@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 12:58 PM The term "singer/songwriter" has been categorically stigmatized. Whenever the term is thrown around, it almost automatically infers some self-congradulatory self-piteous, professionally sensitive tripe, ala Cat Stevens or Jackson Browne. It (the term) alludes any kind positive connotation, and there are really amazing singer-songwriters in the most classic sense of the term who do not fall into the "professionally sensitive" mold -- Tom Waits, Lyle Lovett, Randy Newman, Dave Alvin, Lauryn Hill, and Paul Westerberg have all referred to themselves as singer-songwriters. But the mainstream perception of the term has lost any value, largely because it means "someone like Dan Fogelberg".
on 6/3/02 10:20 AM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote:
Skip is on the money here, through I'd perhaps substitute "James Taylor" for "Jackson Browne,"
And here we disagree. James Taylor is responsible for some of the most beautiful and unconventional chord progressions of the 1970's (check out "If I Keep My Heart Out Of Sight" or "Chanson Francais") while Jackson Browne was -- during RUNNING ON EMPTY -- turning out stuff like "The Road" (which surely puts him in Fogelberg territory). As a guitar player, I always thought of James as the Bill Evans of fingerpickers. sh
Skip, you're correct in your musical analysis, of course. But in this case, I was referring only to public perception and pop-market credibility, not actual musical content. In my own purview, Jackson got to play the rock'n'roll star at least for a while during the Eagles era, while James Taylor has always been a warm snuggle-bunny due to things like "You've Got a Friend." I just thought Taylor was better suited to your own argument about general public perception and tastes than Taylor - Browne was MTV for at least a while, while Taylor has been VH1 since before the station existed - but, as always, to each his own! I do like your "Bill Evans" analogy, though. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com -----Original Message----- From: skip Heller [mailto:velaires@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 1:33 PM on 6/3/02 10:20 AM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote:
Skip is on the money here, through I'd perhaps substitute "James Taylor" for "Jackson Browne,"
And here we disagree. James Taylor is responsible for some of the most beautiful and unconventional chord progressions of the 1970's (check out "If I Keep My Heart Out Of Sight" or "Chanson Francais") while Jackson Browne was -- during RUNNING ON EMPTY -- turning out stuff like "The Road" (which surely puts him in Fogelberg territory). As a guitar player, I always thought of James as the Bill Evans of fingerpickers.
on 6/3/02 10:37 AM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote:
Skip, you're correct in your musical analysis, of course. But in this case, I was referring only to public perception and pop-market credibility, not actual musical content. In my own purview, Jackson got to play the rock'n'roll star at least for a while during the Eagles era, while James Taylor has always been a warm snuggle-bunny due to things like "You've Got a Friend." I just thought Taylor was better suited to your own argument about general public perception and tastes than Taylor - Browne was MTV for at least a while, while Taylor has been VH1 since before the station existed - but, as always, to each his own!
I do like your "Bill Evans" analogy, though.
Steve Smith
Kindly remember that the Eagles never covered JT, but did cover Waits. On the other hand, George Jones covered JT not once but TWICE. Would Jackson ever write a line like "I was standing over a man with a tire iron in my hand"? And what about "Millworker", one of the greatest songs about American labor ever? My other self-serving analogy in the same vein positions Joni Mitchell as Keith Jarrett. sh NP: BOBBIE GENTRY'S GREATEST HITS
Yeah, I was trying to come up with one of those for Robin, actually - but calling her "the Wayne Horvitz of singing pianists" didn't quite work... Maybe "the Charles Ives of folkie troubadours"? ;-) Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Bill Frisell, "Blackberry Blossom," 'The Willies' (Nonesuch) (which Skip will enjoy and Naked City die-hards will loathe...) -----Original Message----- From: skip Heller [mailto:velaires@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 1:49 PM My other self-serving analogy in the same vein positions Joni Mitchell as Keith Jarrett.
on 6/3/02 11:15 AM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote:
Yeah, I was trying to come up with one of those for Robin, actually - but calling her "the Wayne Horvitz of singing pianists" didn't quite work... Maybe "the Charles Ives of folkie troubadours"? ;-)
Could she maybe be Charlie Haden?
SH,SS,PR et al: Well at least now I can see the roots of my similar antipathy for those pairs of artists. Ken Waxman Anyone up to comparing Merle Haggard to Ornette Coleman (oops, I just recalled SH's OC's view)? How 'bout Bob Dylan to Cecil Taylor? Also, as an aside, ever notice that the greatest number of people described as singer/songwriters are Caucasians? --- skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> wrote:
I do like your "Bill Evans" analogy, though.
Steve Smith
My other self-serving analogy in the same vein positions Joni Mitchell as Keith Jarrett.
sh
===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca
on 6/3/02 2:51 PM, Ken Waxman at mingusaum@yahoo.ca wrote:
SH,SS,PR et al:
Well at least now I can see the roots of my similar antipathy for those pairs of artists.
Ken Waxman
Anyone up to comparing Merle Haggard to Ornette Coleman (oops, I just recalled SH's OC's view)? How 'bout Bob Dylan to Cecil Taylor?
I always thought of Merle Haggard as more a Cannonball Adderley figure (Lefty frizell is definitely the Charlie Parker of country singers).
Also, as an aside, ever notice that the greatest number of people described as singer/songwriters are Caucasians?
People of color in this country definitely have enough problems without adding hyper-sensitive post-Dylan song-poetry to their list of woes. That said, how come the only "New Dylan" who really lived up to his job description was black? (yes I mean Bob Marley) sh
Also, as an aside, ever notice that the greatest number of people described as singer/songwriters are Caucasians?
With a fair amount of related Surinams in my family by marriage, I am not too sure if 'caucasian' still means something, but laying that aside: I am not too knowledgable in the s/s genre, but Ben Harper, Terry Callier and Joan Armatrading spring to mind, and they sure aren't white! A black singer/ songwriter might as well have his fair deal of discrimination along the lines of his black colleagues in the classical, C&W and electronic fields. BTW There's one person singer/ songwriter where I have absolutely no clue whether he's black or white: Douglas September, never seen the guy, so I wouldn't know. Regards, Remco Takken Our Roots Began In Africa, said Pharoah Sanders one day, and even he doesn't look a bit like an African, he has a point.
on 6/4/02 2:44 AM, Remco Takken at r.takken@planet.nl wrote:
With a fair amount of related Surinams in my family by marriage, I am not too sure if 'caucasian' still means something, but laying that aside: I am not too knowledgable in the s/s genre, but Ben Harper, Terry Callier and Joan Armatrading spring to mind, and they sure aren't white!
That's three. Now pony up the 1973 Asylum Records roster etc, and that's way more than three. skip h
I can answer this: Skip was pointing out that through a slight carelessness in my wording, I seemed to be implying that "singer-songwriter" and "more challenging fare" were somehow mutually exclusive. When I re-read my own words, I could easily see how that might be the interpretation, when all I was trying to say was that Holcomb has a unique and adventurous compositional style underlying her otherwise seemingly conventional songs (which for the most part would have no problem sidling up against the standard fare, both creative works and pablum) that one might hear on the standard "adult alternative" radio format. There have, of course, always been many very creative singer-songwriters who employ compositional devices more advanced than the I-IV-V progression - Skip himself is one of them, so he should know - and I certainly didn't mean to slight them. And lest I be called on the carpet again, I should add that there are plenty of songwriters who, to paraphrase Schoenberg, still write good and important songs in the key of C. Patrice, I don't think you're being "clueless" at all. It's a reasonably subtle mis-statement to which Skip was drawing my attention, but it was worth pointing out. We're not writing for publication here, but the only way we can actually perform a service to one another (not to mention avoiding pointless brushfires) is to use language as precisely as possible. Had a writer handed the same sentence to me in a review, as an editor I would have flagged it as well. After Saturday night's Zorn concert at Merkin - a wonderful performance of his demanding new chamber music piece 'Chimeras,' heroically performed and followed by a fairly uproarious panel discussion with the composer and musicians - I went straight to Tower and bought four Bob Dylan CDs to attone for my error! Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Tobias Picker, 'Therese Raquin' - Dallas Opera (Chandos) -----Original Message----- From: Patrice L. Roussel [mailto:proussel@ichips.intel.com] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 12:47 PM To: ssmith36@sprynet.com Cc: 'skip Heller'; 'Zorn-List (E-mail)'; proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Robin Holcomb, at last On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 16:18:44 -0400 "Steve Smith" wrote:
I guess I was typing too quickly once this thing fell out of its envelope! My public apologies especially to Skip, who's written more than a few genuinely great songs himself.
I keep on reading and reading again what Steve wrote and I can't find any reason for him to apologize. He finds words to describe Robin's very personal style of songwriting, words that exhibit a genuine interest in her art and understanding of her sensibility. I would have said something similar in spirit, although without Steve's ease with words. Can Skip explain what Steve said that is so outrageous (unless of course if it so obvious and I am just totally clueless)? Patrice.
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 13:02:58 -0400 "Steve Smith" wrote:
I can answer this: Skip was pointing out that through a slight carelessness in my wording, I seemed to be implying that "singer-songwriter" and "more challenging fare" were somehow mutually exclusive. When I re-read my own words, I could easily see how that might be the interpretation, when all I was trying to say was that Holcomb has a unique and adventurous compositional style underlying her otherwise seemingly conventional songs (which for the most part would have no problem sidling up against the standard fare, both creative works and pablum) that one might hear on the standard "adult alternative" radio format.
Since you have been on this list from the beginning, I can't understand that your phrasing was taken in such a black and white fashion. I thought it was a common figure of style to make an opposition in order to emphasize a point to be made. Did really people on the list feel that for Steve Smith Robin Holcomb was the only singer in the business to bridge the two sides based on his choice of words? I guess we will have to be very careful with the way we say something to be sure that nobody feels excluded... Patrice.
on 6/3/02 10:16 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
I guess we will have to be very careful with the way we say something to be sure that nobody feels excluded...
I don't feel excluded. I just wanted to make sure Robin's work didn't get lumped in with a lot of substandard stuff. For the record, I've never called myself a "singer-songwriter". In my case, it would be like a journalist calling himself a typist. It describes such a tiny portion of the job. Songs are only one form of composition. besides, I gave up on writing lyrics and I've never been very good at making myself look sensitive. skip h
Ooops, I did it again! :-) Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com -----Original Message----- From: skip Heller [mailto:velaires@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 1:28 PM For the record, I've never called myself a "singer-songwriter".
participants (6)
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Andrew -
Ken Waxman -
Patrice L. Roussel -
Remco Takken -
skip Heller -
Steve Smith