Re: Pop innovators (was The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach)
I don't really understand why Dr. Dre is doing innovative work. Can you please give some examples? When "The Chronic" came out I was very annoyed that he was sampling the same old P-Funk records...
From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfectlist@furious.com> To: zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Pop innovators (was The Experimental Side of Burt Bacharach) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:03:44 -0500
Good discussion here.
I also wonder who's really doing innovative work in the pop world today. Radiohead and Outkast (Bjork too I suppose) definitely fit the bill but there should be more, shouldn't there? In the last 5-10 years, it seemed like it was mostly hip hop producers like Dr. Dre, Timbaland, Prince Paul and RZA who fit this bill.
Back in the day, groups like the Beatles and the Beach Boys had some leeway to do this because they already topped the charts and had huge name recognition. They didn't start with Revolver or Pet Sounds but they were able to get there thanks in large part to the previous success that they enjoyed.
Best, Jason
_______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
_________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize
on 11/12/03 9:27 AM, Ben Axelrad at soulfrieda@hotmail.com wrote:
I don't really understand why Dr. Dre is doing innovative work. Can you please give some examples? When "The Chronic" came out I was very annoyed that he was sampling the same old P-Funk records...
You're white, aren't you? sh
On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 09:39, skip heller wrote:
on 11/12/03 9:27 AM, Ben Axelrad at soulfrieda@hotmail.com wrote:
I don't really understand why Dr. Dre is doing innovative work. Can you please give some examples? When "The Chronic" came out I was very annoyed that he was sampling the same old P-Funk records...
You're white, aren't you?
While a snappy comeback/accusation, it doesn't quite answer the question. I'm curious as to this too, since, while I've been hearing hip-hop since Back In The Day (I still remember playing the newly released copy of "The Message" at a college disco event at which I was sorta assisant-DJ), I hadn't been paying attention for a couple of decades, so it's as much of a challenge for some of us to hear it in context as it is for, say, some of my young co-workers who are into the The Strokes to hear what was striking about the Velvet Underground. Or, for that matter, to hear why Stravinsky caused a riot.
on 11/12/03 3:38 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote:
You're white, aren't you?
While a snappy comeback/accusation, it doesn't quite answer the question. I'm curious as to this too, since, while I've been hearing hip-hop since Back In The Day (I still remember playing the newly released copy of "The Message" at a college disco event at which I was sorta assisant-DJ), I hadn't been paying attention for a couple of decades, so it's as much of a challenge for some of us to hear it in context as it is for, say, some of my young co-workers who are into the The Strokes to hear what was striking about the Velvet Underground. Or, for that matter, to hear why Stravinsky caused a riot.
What he was sampling wasn't the news as much as how he was building it. Like 'em or not -- and I sure don't -- the Velvets are striking as long as you're not deaf. Contemporary rock music is so often like microwave food -- looks like food, it's got steam coming off it, but it's somehow less nutritional than the real stuff. And I thought it was less Stravinsky than the dancing that caused the riot. sh
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:53:19 -0800 skip heller wrote:
Contemporary rock music is so often like microwave food -- looks like food, it's got steam coming off it, but it's somehow less nutritional than the real stuff.
But let's be frank: don't you think that a lot of so-called "experimental" music is turning into circles? I sometimes get the feeling that some genres of music are still called "experimental" or "demanding" simply because they are played in front of sparse audiences (even after more than thirty years having been around)? What's best or worst? A young rock player trying to resurrect The Velvet or the Beatles or a young improviser that plays in late 60's non-idiomatic improv style without adding anything significantly new? Is there really a big difference? Aren't they just both exhibiting the same kind of morbid fascination for the founding fathers (Beatles/Stones on one side, Taylor/Bailey/Brotzmann/etc on the other)? At least the rocker might have more chances with girls :-). Yes, a lot of rock/popular music is lacking in originality and appear to be on auto-pilot, but this symptom seems to apply equally well to a lot of what is supposed to be innovative music. Patrice.
This is right and more than right. A lot of regurgitated crap on a stick with the arrognace to parade under the banner "creative music" is just as bad. Maybe even worse, because it purports to be experimental. There's as high a perecentage of crappy "progressive" music as there is of crappy pop music. On the other hand, there's as high a percentage of worthwhile pop as worthwhile jazz (or whatever you call it). And there are more chicks at a pop gig. skip h
What's best or worst? A young rock player trying to resurrect The Velvet or the Beatles or a young improviser that plays in late 60's non-idiomatic improv style without adding anything significantly new? Is there really a big difference? Aren't they just both exhibiting the same kind of morbid fascination for the founding fathers (Beatles/Stones on one side, Taylor/Bailey/Brotzmann/etc on the other)? At least the rocker might have more chances with girls :-).
Haha, skip speaks the truth! Patrice, This is hilarious... and all too prominent where I'm from - "I sometimes get the feeling that some genres of music are still called "experimental" or "demanding" simply because they are played in front of sparse audiences (even after more than thirty years having been around)?" G skip heller wrote:
This is right and more than right. A lot of regurgitated crap on a stick with the arrognace to parade under the banner "creative music" is just as bad. Maybe even worse, because it purports to be experimental.
There's as high a perecentage of crappy "progressive" music as there is of crappy pop music. On the other hand, there's as high a percentage of worthwhile pop as worthwhile jazz (or whatever you call it). And there are more chicks at a pop gig.
skip h
What's best or worst? A young rock player trying to resurrect The Velvet or the Beatles or a young improviser that plays in late 60's non-idiomatic improv style without adding anything significantly new? Is there really a big difference? Aren't they just both exhibiting the same kind of morbid fascination for the founding fathers (Beatles/Stones on one side, Taylor/Bailey/Brotzmann/etc on the other)? At least the rocker might have more chances with girls :-).
_______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
.
But when, oh when will the MacArthur grants start flowing to rock'n'roll? At 05:32 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote:
This is right and more than right. A lot of regurgitated crap on a stick with the arrognace to parade under the banner "creative music" is just as bad. Maybe even worse, because it purports to be experimental.
There's as high a perecentage of crappy "progressive" music as there is of crappy pop music. On the other hand, there's as high a percentage of worthwhile pop as worthwhile jazz (or whatever you call it). And there are more chicks at a pop gig.
skip h
_______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
Chris Selvig
If you think of grants as the "creative" musician's analog to a major label deal... sh on 11/12/03 9:43 PM, Chris Selvig at selvig@earthlink.net wrote:
But when, oh when will the MacArthur grants start flowing to rock'n'roll?
At 05:32 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote:
This is right and more than right. A lot of regurgitated crap on a stick with the arrognace to parade under the banner "creative music" is just as bad. Maybe even worse, because it purports to be experimental.
There's as high a perecentage of crappy "progressive" music as there is of crappy pop music. On the other hand, there's as high a percentage of worthwhile pop as worthwhile jazz (or whatever you call it). And there are more chicks at a pop gig.
skip h
_______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
Chris Selvig
_______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
participants (6)
-
Ben Axelrad -
Chris Selvig -
Gavin Castleton -
Joseph Zitt -
Patrice L. Roussel -
skip heller