on 4/23/03 12:07 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
Even after 50 years, you might still be considered as taking risk by playing Cage (that should alarm the creative audiences, but does not seem to), and where would be "high-brow" music without a little bit of sponsored risk taking :-).
It should alarm anybody that anything 50 years old and taught by the academe is considered daring. Esecpially in the US, where it serves to prove we're a bunch of third-rate chickenshit consumers who have none of the pioneer spirit upon which this country was founded. Whether or not the audience is considered "creative" (and no audience has the right to point themselves up as being more creative than any other) should have no bearing. The fact that we have to look on the pioneering acts of a half century ago for a confirmation of our collective brevity is truly sickening.
Skip's certainly right that it's absurd to think of Cage's early music as experimental & that's why I don't think Patrice's measure of a fading rabid fandom for Cage is appropriate. But you can't argue both sides of this against Cage. If these works are no longer experimental, and they're now being performed by musicians who aren't avant garde specialists for audiences that aren't avant garde fans, well, that's exactly how things enter the classical repertoire. Those audiences are accepting some of the works, just like they accept some of Ives, and some of Copland, Crawford, etc, for that matter. Yes these audiences think they're hearing something different from, say, Mozart or Brahms, but they know what they're hearing isn't brand new experimental stuff. They know it's fifty years old. Nobody's fooling them into thinking that it was improvised yesterday by some kid with a bunch of tattoos & a laptop using MAX/MSP; it's just some of the music from the 20th century that's working its way into the always conservative classical music culture. These audiences (and most of the performers) don't care about music theory for the most part, they just care about whether they like the sound of what they're hearing. That's why I discount all of Patrice's arguments about how shallow Cage's theories may have been. The audience for these works doesn't give a shit how the notes were selected if they like the sound of the notes. &, for better or worse, some of these pieces are quite appealing for those kinds of listeners. There won't be a lot of performances of, say Atlas Eclipticalis or Cartridge Music for this audience, but as more pianists start playing selections from the Sonatas and Interludes, and some of the earlier works, and more quartets start playing Cage's first quartet, the less those pieces have any need for the kind of fans that Patrice is saying aren't there for Cage in general. That's what happens with the avant garde: some of it enters the mainstream, some of it stays within the realm of avant garde fandom and much of it virtually disappears. But, as much as we may wish it were otherwise, it's never the avant garde fans who get to decide what enters the mainstream. There are early Cage pieces being played for straight classical audiences and they're not walking out in droves when they hear it. That's a sign that, no matter what Cage's standing within the avant garde may be, some of his music may have a life in the classical concert repertoire. I think too, that as there are more performances and recordings of a wider range of Cage's work that some other later works will get heard more as well. A lot of it may not get far (I'd certainly be surprised if much from say the mid-fifties into the early seventies ever gets over for non-specialists) but some pieces from Cage's last 15 years or so may have more audience appeal than y'all might expect, given the right kind of players. (&, Ellery, I'm on digest too, & I'm not sure why some of my responses haven't been marking quotes properly. While I've been home sick much of this last week I've made a couple of changes to my computer, I'll look around a little and try to fix it.) -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com
on 4/23/03 3:48 PM, Herb Levy at herb@eskimo.com wrote:
But you can't argue both sides of this against Cage. If these works are no longer experimental, and they're now being performed by musicians who aren't avant garde specialists for audiences that aren't avant garde fans, well, that's exactly how things enter the classical repertoire.
Those audiences are accepting some of the works, just like they accept some of Ives, and some of Copland, Crawford, etc, for that matter. Yes these audiences think they're hearing something different from, say, Mozart or Brahms, but they know what they're hearing isn't brand new experimental stuff. They know it's fifty years old. Nobody's fooling them into thinking that it was improvised yesterday by some kid with a bunch of tattoos & a laptop using MAX/MSP; it's just some of the music from the 20th century that's working its way into the always conservative classical music culture.
Yeah, but the audience always walks out on it. The ears are still conservative. They even walk out on the Ives 4, which is arguably the greatest symphonic work on the 20th century. I saw the LA Phil do a killing version (Nagano conducted the shit out of it), and a lot of people walking out. Amazing how much dissonance they'll tolerate in a Prince record, but not out of an orchestra playing their balls off.
These audiences (and most of the performers) don't care about music theory for the most part, they just care about whether they like the sound of what they're hearing. That's why I discount all of Patrice's arguments about how shallow Cage's theories may have been. The audience for these works doesn't give a shit how the notes were selected if they like the sound of the notes. &, for better or worse, some of these pieces are quite appealing for those kinds of listeners.
Without cage there waving the ol' PT Barnum spell, it's a hell of a lot less enticing, and the sound of the notes isn't enough to keep them glued to their seat, let alone coming back to hear more.
That's what happens with the avant garde: some of it enters the mainstream, some of it stays within the realm of avant garde fandom and much of it virtually disappears. But, as much as we may wish it were otherwise, it's never the avant garde fans who get to decide what enters the mainstream. There are early Cage pieces being played for straight classical audiences and they're not walking out in droves when they hear it. That's a sign that, no matter what Cage's standing within the avant garde may be, some of his music may have a life in the classical concert repertoire.
The early Cage pieces are the ones he wrote when he still gave a shit about music as music, as opposed to a vehicale for his personality. They don't really typify what Cage made sure we thought of as Cage. IE they're not "events".
I think too, that as there are more performances and recordings of a wider range of Cage's work that some other later works will get heard more as well. A lot of it may not get far (I'd certainly be surprised if much from say the mid-fifties into the early seventies ever gets over for non-specialists) but some pieces from Cage's last 15 years or so may have more audience appeal than y'all might expect, given the right kind of players.
Perhaps. Zappa's music -- a much surer commercial drawing card, not to mention better music, I think -- is only recently starting to come around to that acceptance, and Zappa's celebrity was on a wider level than Cage's. skip h
A couple of quick things and I think this is done. I've always been writing primarily about specific early Cage pieces that we both agree get over with audiences & those pieces WILL enter the repertoire that gets played. Some members of a classical audience will ALWAYS walk out on stuff like Ives 4th. Most people in a classical audience only sit through Beethoven's 9th Symphony cause they like the choral movement and they think they're supposed to like the whole thing. People won't walk out on other Ives stuff (2nd, 3nd & Holidays Symphony, Unanswered Question, Central Park... etc) largely because it can be heard as program music, there's a story. For better or worse, I'll be surprised if most of Zappa's stuff for orchestra stays in the repertoire for long for technical reasons as much as anything else - it's too hard for the number of rehearsals most orchestras can afford. Some of the chamber music will last.
on 4/23/03 3:48 PM, Herb Levy at herb@eskimo.com wrote:
But you can't argue both sides of this against Cage. If these works are no longer experimental, and they're now being performed by musicians who aren't avant garde specialists for audiences that aren't avant garde fans, well, that's exactly how things enter the classical repertoire.
Those audiences are accepting some of the works, just like they accept some of Ives, and some of Copland, Crawford, etc, for that matter. Yes these audiences think they're hearing something different from, say, Mozart or Brahms, but they know what they're hearing isn't brand new experimental stuff. They know it's fifty years old. Nobody's fooling them into thinking that it was improvised yesterday by some kid with a bunch of tattoos & a laptop using MAX/MSP; it's just some of the music from the 20th century that's working its way into the always conservative classical music culture.
Yeah, but the audience always walks out on it. The ears are still conservative. They even walk out on the Ives 4, which is arguably the greatest symphonic work on the 20th century. I saw the LA Phil do a killing version (Nagano conducted the shit out of it), and a lot of people walking out.
Amazing how much dissonance they'll tolerate in a Prince record, but not out of an orchestra playing their balls off.
These audiences (and most of the performers) don't care about music theory for the most part, they just care about whether they like the sound of what they're hearing. That's why I discount all of Patrice's arguments about how shallow Cage's theories may have been. The audience for these works doesn't give a shit how the notes were selected if they like the sound of the notes. &, for better or worse, some of these pieces are quite appealing for those kinds of listeners.
Without cage there waving the ol' PT Barnum spell, it's a hell of a lot less enticing, and the sound of the notes isn't enough to keep them glued to their seat, let alone coming back to hear more.
That's what happens with the avant garde: some of it enters the mainstream, some of it stays within the realm of avant garde fandom and much of it virtually disappears. But, as much as we may wish it were otherwise, it's never the avant garde fans who get to decide what enters the mainstream. There are early Cage pieces being played for straight classical audiences and they're not walking out in droves when they hear it. That's a sign that, no matter what Cage's standing within the avant garde may be, some of his music may have a life in the classical concert repertoire.
The early Cage pieces are the ones he wrote when he still gave a shit about music as music, as opposed to a vehicale for his personality. They don't really typify what Cage made sure we thought of as Cage. IE they're not "events".
I think too, that as there are more performances and recordings of a wider range of Cage's work that some other later works will get heard more as well. A lot of it may not get far (I'd certainly be surprised if much from say the mid-fifties into the early seventies ever gets over for non-specialists) but some pieces from Cage's last 15 years or so may have more audience appeal than y'all might expect, given the right kind of players.
Perhaps. Zappa's music -- a much surer commercial drawing card, not to mention better music, I think -- is only recently starting to come around to that acceptance, and Zappa's celebrity was on a wider level than Cage's.
skip h
-- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com
on 4/24/03 5:29 AM, Herb Levy at herb@eskimo.com wrote:
For better or worse, I'll be surprised if most of Zappa's stuff for orchestra stays in the repertoire for long for technical reasons as much as anything else - it's too hard for the number of rehearsals most orchestras can afford. Some of the chamber music will last.
I won't be shocked if a lot of Zappa's concert music lasts (even some of the lesser stuff), just because of how many of the players and conductors grew up with that being some of their earliest exposure to modern music and such a pillar of the tradition for them. sh
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Herb Levy -
skip Heller