SF> Was it also not the case that the business idea behind Tzadik was SF> fifty percent of the profits to the label, fifty percent to the SF> respective artists? I recall hearing that somewhere....
Probably on the Beresford-hosted BBC Radio Special. Zorn said that the budget for every Tzadik release is the same (USD5,000) regardless of the number of musicians involved in the recording, and then they split profits. Could perfectly be on a 50/50 basis. Best, Efrén del Valle n.p: Dave Douglas "The Infinite" (BMG) _______________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis! Descárgalo ya desde http://es.messenger.yahoo.com
SF> Was it also not the case that the business idea behind Tzadik was SF> fifty percent of the profits to the label, fifty percent to the SF> respective artists? I recall hearing that somewhere....
Probably on the Beresford-hosted BBC Radio Special. Zorn said that the budget for every Tzadik release is the same (USD5,000) regardless of the number of musicians involved in the recording, and then they split profits. Could perfectly be on a 50/50 basis.
I think 50/50 profit splits are quite common among indies, or at least among smaller ones. The thing to remember is that, runaway hits excluded, profits on CDs generally aren't nearly as high as consumers tend to think. Tzadik could still well be non-profit as long as they're plowing their share of the profits back into operations and future projects. Now that I come to think of it, most indies are non-profits, albeit sans official status... ;) Alexander -- Radio Khartoum http://www.radiokhartoum.com
Alexander Bailey wrote:
I think 50/50 profit splits are quite common among indies, or at least among smaller ones. [...] Now that I come to think of it,
most indies are non-profits, albeit sans official status... ;)
...or even negative-profit! Alan Lankin -- Jazzmatazz http://jazzmatazz.home.att.net lankina@att.net
most indies are non-profits, albeit sans official status... ;)
...or even negative-profit!
I understand this reality, but isn't it also true that some 'indies' might use this reality in order not to pay their artists? ESP Disk is one of the famous examples of an adventurous label that went bankrupt, but re-surfaced four times after it's demise in 1974. Without ever paying anything to the recorded artists.
In the sixties, they got their first chance to record, and ESP functioned well in some cool hippie way. There was absolutely no problem, no one ever got rich here, and some great music was put out anyway. But from the seventies on, the label vanished, but it was still 'ESP' who owned the tapes. And then the re-issues appeared. And re-appeared, and got re-mastered. While saxophonist/ ex-recording artist Sonny Simmons lived on the streets. Remco ps Simmons is currently doing better as far as I know, be it under humble financial conditions.
Did ESP never pay anyone? Why did artists record multiple records for them? Or did they just not pay anyone after their first demise? I understand BYG was really bad about paying the Actuel series artists, too - after the "Jazzactuel" box came out, Byron Coley said Charly wanted him and Thurston Moore to do liner notes for reissues of the whole series, but they refused unless the artists got paid for the reissues. Ah, the sour smell of the record business. At 01:51 PM 7/29/2002 +0200, you wrote:
most indies are non-profits, albeit sans official status... ;)
...or even negative-profit!
I understand this reality, but isn't it also true that some 'indies' might use this reality in order not to pay their artists? ESP Disk is one of the famous examples of an adventurous label that went bankrupt, but re-surfaced four times after it's demise in 1974. Without ever paying anything to the recorded artists.
In the sixties, they got their first chance to record, and ESP functioned well in some cool hippie way. There was absolutely no problem, no one ever got rich here, and some great music was put out anyway.
But from the seventies on, the label vanished, but it was still 'ESP' who owned the tapes. And then the re-issues appeared. And re-appeared, and got re-mastered.
While saxophonist/ ex-recording artist Sonny Simmons lived on the streets.
Remco
ps Simmons is currently doing better as far as I know, be it under humble financial conditions.
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Chris Selvig
on 7/29/02 9:53 AM, Chris Selvig at selvig@sonic.net wrote:
Did ESP never pay anyone? Why did artists record multiple records for them?
Because getting recorded is hard, whether the practices around it the music are fair or not. Everyone is desparate to have a record out, and they'll grin and bear the corporate sodomy for the opportunity.
Or did they just not pay anyone after their first demise?
From what I heard, they just didn't pay anyone -- publishing, artist royalties, any of it.
I
understand BYG was really bad about paying the Actuel series artists, too - after the "Jazzactuel" box came out, Byron Coley said Charly wanted him and Thurston Moore to do liner notes for reissues of the whole series, but they refused unless the artists got paid for the reissues. Ah, the sour smell of the record business.
Don't ever become a doo-wop fan. Having one of the Hollywood Flames shine my shoes was heartbraking. Don't ever become a punk rock fan. Having Keith Morris deliver my pizza was heartbreaking. skip h
So you weren't comforted by visions of Morris Levy's quarterhorse collection, or SST's huge catalog of appallingly mediocre records? At 10:08 AM 7/29/2002 -0700, skip Heller wrote:
on 7/29/02 9:53 AM, Chris Selvig at selvig@sonic.net wrote:
Did ESP never pay anyone? Why did artists record multiple records for them?
Because getting recorded is hard, whether the practices around it the music are fair or not. Everyone is desparate to have a record out, and they'll grin and bear the corporate sodomy for the opportunity.
Or did they just not pay anyone after their first demise?
From what I heard, they just didn't pay anyone -- publishing, artist royalties, any of it.
I
understand BYG was really bad about paying the Actuel series artists, too - after the "Jazzactuel" box came out, Byron Coley said Charly wanted him and Thurston Moore to do liner notes for reissues of the whole series, but they refused unless the artists got paid for the reissues. Ah, the sour smell of the record business.
Don't ever become a doo-wop fan. Having one of the Hollywood Flames shine my shoes was heartbraking. Don't ever become a punk rock fan. Having Keith Morris deliver my pizza was heartbreaking.
skip h
Chris Selvig
on 7/29/02 10:23 AM, Chris Selvig at selvig@sonic.net wrote:
So you weren't comforted by visions of Morris Levy's quarterhorse collection, or SST's huge catalog of appallingly mediocre records?
As for the former, not one iota. As for the latter, I've met Tom Troccoli and I think the later days of SST may well be his output. Certainly examplified by it. sh
after the "Jazzactuel" box came out, Byron Coley said Charly wanted him and Thurston Moore to do liner notes for reissues of the whole series, but they refused unless the artists got paid for the reissues. Ah, the sour smell of the record business.
That's exactly what ESP Disk'/ Calibre promised: (they would surely have this clean deal), when they asked me to do some liner notes. And after thirty discs, The Dutch Deal was down, never heard any coherent story about its demise. ESP is currently put out in Italy. Yes, that's right, bootleg heaven. As a writer, I thought just about the same things a jazz musician might come across, when offered this ESP-Disk deal: Wow, now I can do the stuff I REALLY like. In my case, I didn't 'sign' anything, but I had an interesting time visiting Burton Greene, speaking to Sonny Simmons on the phone etc. That was a wild experience for me. And, yes, I was paid, but compare it to the one time 'session fee' all ESP musicians got after their recording session. Byron Colley might know the exact amount of dollars involved, it must have been something between 50 and 250 dollars. I actually lost money on at least one booklet. That was because I went out of my way to make Free Music Quintet as beautiful as possible. And now I am Pierre Courbois's (Free Music's drummer) official biographer. Let's see if that's going to make me rich;-) Remco
Not that it would have helped Remco, but just imagine how different things might be now if Stollman had accepted the offer for the entire ESP catalog offered to him by the Smithsonian Institute on behalf of the Folkways label, just prior to his making the deal with Calibre. Think of how it might have improved the general public (and academic) perception of this catalog as a valuable body of work. Think of the careful packaging and extensive liners (no slight to the good work done by Remco!) and the sturdy distribution network Folkways enjoys. Think of the economical boon to we consumers had they been allowed to realize their intention of pairing appropriate sessions to create packages with more generous running times. Think, too, about the precedent set by Alan Lomax and his heirs by tracking down the performers in the Lomax series and making sure they were paid something - even the nearly unknown prisoner who sang the work song that became a minor sensation on the 'O Brother, Where Art Thou?' soundtrack was located in a Chicago housing project and handed a royalty check for $20,000. (Granted, Folkways isn't Lomax, but it's got a similar operation and a mandate to preserve and celebrate traditional music, of which "The New Thing" is certainly a valid part.) Think about all of that, and lament once more Stollman's short-sightedness. Calibre briefly reaps the benefits of name recognition, which they'd hoped to funnel into new recordings a la Impulse. And instead, the market dips and the company can't realize its vision. Pity, that. Let's hope Greg Ginn has more foresight when he's approached by Folkways 40 years from now for his valuable documentation of the West Coast scene of the early '80s... Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com
Dear Zornlisters, this is all personally coloured Dutch esp-disk information. please delete this, if not interested. regards, Remco
valuable body of work. Think of the careful packaging and extensive liners (no slight to the good work done by Remco!) and the sturdy distribution network Folkways enjoys. That would have been the best.never heard that story.
I didn't think the Dutch were up to the task, including myself. Didn't you think *I* was surprised when they gave *Me* the call to do these ESP make-overs? I was born in 1971, and just grabbed the opportunity to be on a Sun Ra record! And then learned learned learned, in order to be able to form some kind of vision on the non-european part of the ESP catalogue. I still cross my eyes spontaneously though, when I see those butchered texts on Ayler's SPIRITS REJOICE. But generally, it has been fun. Think of the economical boon to we consumers had
they been allowed to realize their intention of pairing appropriate sessions to create packages with more generous running times.
That bothered me too, I rushed to the shops to buy the old Bells/ Prophecy as a two-on-one disc. Keep in mind, that all tapes were being remastered at the same moment I had to write the texts, so I had to listen to my father's records, and buy others myself second hand.
Calibre briefly reaps the benefits of name recognition, which they'd hoped to funnel into new recordings a la Impulse. This one is so on the mark, I just can't believe you weren't in my living room, where Bernard Stollman heard for the first time that there were going to be 'new' esp disks. You should have seen the look on his face. And mine, when I discovered I slipped my tongue. Always thought the new recordings belonged to the package deal.
Is there anybody out there who has actually seen NEW esp cd-titles on Calibre? And instead, the market dips and
the company can't realize its vision. Pity, that.
Calibre came right out of another Dutch bankruptcy, Via Records. Ah well. Regards, Remco
I swear that I've never been in Remco's living room (so far), but in this case you wouldn't need to have been. I remembered a label head actually announcing this intention and even mentioning a few artists by name in Billboard. However, my memory was playing tricks when it came to specifics, apparently: The item I'd read was actually about VIA. The following appeared on July 11, 1998: LEGENDARY JAZZ LABEL ESP is to be resurrected by Dutch indie VIA Records after 15 years in hibernation. VIA has acquired the right to use the trademark of the Woodstock, N.Y.-based label and the old ESP "hippie" logo for 12 years, with the option to buy the company, owned by Bernard and Flavia Stollman, after the first six years. All ESP titles, such as albums by Billie Holiday, Charlie Parker, and Bud Powell, will be made available again through VIA. "We were looking for ways to get inroads for our own catalog into the international market, including the U.S.," explains VIA GM Ben Gieskes. VIA, which recently acquired the rights to distribute BMG's jazz catalog in the Benelux, will transfer saxophonist Yuri Honig and Dutch pianist Michiel Borstlap from its own roster to ESP. Seems to me that there was also a later piece in Jazziz that touched on the subject and talked about Calibre - I'm pretty sure of it, but I can't seem to find it right this minute. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com -----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Remco Takken
Calibre briefly reaps the benefits of name recognition, which they'd hoped to funnel into new recordings a la Impulse. This one is so on the mark, I just can't believe you weren't in my living room, where Bernard Stollman heard for the first time that there were going to be 'new' esp disks. You should have seen the look on his face. And mine, when I discovered I slipped my tongue. Always thought the new recordings belonged to the package deal.
Is there anybody out there who has actually seen NEW esp cd-titles on Calibre?
VIA, which recently acquired the rights to distribute BMG's jazz catalog in the Benelux, will transfer saxophonist Yuri Honig and Dutch pianist Michiel Borstlap from its own roster to ESP.
Thanks for looking this up for us. I am quite sure Stollman didn not know about this in 2000. VIA got in big financial troubles by the end of 1999, and some recent unreleased Dutch jazz recordings were hastily dropped into the ESP catalogue. A 1999 live recording by Pierre Courbois was actually put out with ESP-style cover art, and a 1960's photograph (to make it look more like a real ESP album?). I have no idea whether it hit the shops, or that only testpressings and promo's were made. When Stollman listened to a concert tape of these new Courbois recordings at my house, he stated that there was no real connection between his original 'free music' vision, and the 'european chamber improv' of recent. Stollman seemed disturbed about this new release. Remco
Steve: I'm not party to anything inside that happens in the big US music biz, but was Stollman really made an offer? I heard about it at the time, but stories about deals are always floating around and some never come to fruition. If Stollman got a dollar offer and turned it down -- and he's often maintained that his ex-wife got the ESP rights as part of the divorce settlement -- then that's too bad. But if it was just someone from the Smithsonian Institute suggesting that they do a deal, or a floating rumor that maybe it should be done ... Anyways if that happened and he found out about it, John Ashcroft may have launched an investigation into why an institution so close to his office was paying money for this subversive stuff. regards, Ken Waxman --- Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com> wrote:
Not that it would have helped Remco, but just imagine how different things might be now if Stollman had accepted the offer for the entire ESP catalog offered to him by the Smithsonian Institute on behalf of the Folkways label, just prior to his making the deal with Calibre.
===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
on 7/30/02 10:59 AM, Ken Waxman at mingusaum@yahoo.ca wrote:
Anyways if that happened and he found out about it, John Ashcroft may have launched an investigation into why an institution so close to his office was paying money for this subversive stuff.
Yeah -- ever since Jesse Helms, big Washington $ funding avant-garde music has been a HUGE concern. skip h
If Stollman got a dollar offer and turned it down -- and he's often maintained that his ex-wife got the ESP rights as part of the divorce settlement -- then that's too bad.
a few months ago, some people on the Sun Ra list were discussing possible reissues of old lp's. Someone had heard a rumor that the Horo lp's were being released on cd. I got in touch with the guy who was supposedly doing it, and he said that he was TRYING to get the rights to the Horo stuff, but in the meantime he had made a deal to release material that was recorded at the Heliocentric sessions for ESP. i think he was going to call it "heliocentric worlds, vol.3". anyway, after i posted that info, i got an email from Bernard Stollman himself, wondering who this label was. all this leads me to believe Stollman still maintains some sort of (financial)interest in the ESP catalog. sean
the Heliocentric sessions for ESP. i think he was going to call it "heliocentric worlds, vol.3". anyway, after i posted that info, i got an email from Bernard Stollman himself, wondering who this label was. all this leads me to believe Stollman still maintains some sort of (financial)interest in the ESP catalog.
Stollman loves the music and the musicians he put out in the sixties, and he loathed the fact that either NOTHING IS or the KAHOUTEK album came out under the Volume three banner in the seventies. Those were definitely bootlegs. Stollman loves the catalogue as a whole, and wouldn't mess with the titles. That's why I have doubts about the plans of a 'HW volume three'. Because such a thing doesn't exist, to my knowledge. If it existed, Stolman would have released it already, just as he put out Ayler's Prophecy and Slug's Saloon posthumously. Like WH vol. 3, those kind of belong to the original ESP Catalogue. But... Stollman does have access to hundreds of hours of live Sun Ra from the seventies, so called soundboard recordings. I don't know if he's still busy finding an outlet for that. When the Dutch Deal was starting of well, he talked about releasing them -in the long term- on ESP Calibre. Of course, nothing came of that. Regards, Remco
Remco wrote to zorn-list:
sean wrote:
s>> the Heliocentric sessions for ESP. i think he was going to call s>> it "heliocentric worlds, vol.3". anyway, after i posted that s>> info, i got an email from Bernard Stollman himself, wondering who s>> this label was. all this leads me to believe Stollman still s>> maintains some sort of (financial)interest in the ESP catalog. R> Stollman loves the music and the musicians he put out in the R> sixties, and he loathed the fact that either NOTHING IS or the R> KAHOUTEK album came out under the Volume three banner in the R> seventies. Those were definitely bootlegs. Stollman loves the R> catalogue as a whole, and wouldn't mess with the titles. Stollman is also (last I heard) the attorney for Ra's estate, so his interest in a "new release" he hadn't heard of may have been a little more than, uh, aesthetic. Mail from Stollman from last summer here: http://listserv.surfnet.nl/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0107&L=saturn&P=R3651 (Sorry if someone else brought this up already, my mail server seems to have spent the day in hyperspace (posts popping up in the last hour, all achronologically ...)) -- Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com There's no need for us to return to San Francisco at all. -- Michael Moorcock np: Cerberus Shoal, _Homb_ nr: Christopher Petit, _Robinson_
Hello, ...I seem to remember a story about P. Sanders getting paid for his session, but Bernard Stollman was the source IIRC, so it may not have been true. If ESP would have been entirely reputable, and paid everyone whatever the appropriate % was, I somehow doubt that they would have been able to release as many records as they did. That's quite a double edged sword for me, because while I believe very strongly that artists should be fairly compensated by the businessmen who profit from their music, I also hate to think of Charles Tyler's two records or Frank Lowe's "Black Beings" hypothetically not existing. It's in the Val Wilmer book that Sun Ra makes the statement "Well, he's the only one who records the music". In finding that quote, I read in the following paragraph about how Noah Howard was offered a contract totally inadequate in relation to what should be paid. But he did sign it, possibly because he knew that Impulse! or Prestige weren't exactly hounding him to release his stuff, and also I'm guessing because in the moment, when the artist is dealing with some seriously volatile (and also uncommercial) stuff, the desire to just get the stuff documented (authentication) might be as big a desire as $$$. But I've never had a burning free jazz record come out of me, so I'm just speculating. Still, Lowe's record came out around 1973, and by that time I'd think that ESP's shady policies were well known. Yet, he chose to deal w/ them. Comments? When the ZYX ESP reissues came out in the early '90's I bought close to 30 of the things, and then discovered later that Stollman was quite the opportunist and also that the artists were getting stiffed yet again w/ regards to that reissue program. When faced w/ Simmons situation, that burns inside me a bit. I'm guessing that the Calibre reissues are more above board. But I'm wondering, when Impulse! reissued that run of stuff that included Cecil, Roswell Rudd, Dewey Redmen, Sam Rivers etc., were the musicians paid anything? Indie labels have got nothing on the majors regarding unscrupulous business practices. I remain.... Joseph NP: Pieters/Russell/Stapleton- "Last Glass" CD NR: Alain Robbe-Grillet- "The Erasers" -----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Remco Takken Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 7:51 AM To: Alan Lankin; zorn-list Cc: Alexander Bailey Subject: Re: Tzadik pricing
most indies are non-profits, albeit sans official status... ;)
...or even negative-profit!
I understand this reality, but isn't it also true that some 'indies' might use this reality in order not to pay their artists? ESP Disk is one of the famous examples of an adventurous label that went bankrupt, but re-surfaced four times after it's demise in 1974. Without ever paying anything to the recorded artists.
In the sixties, they got their first chance to record, and ESP functioned well in some cool hippie way. There was absolutely no problem, no one ever got rich here, and some great music was put out anyway. But from the seventies on, the label vanished, but it was still 'ESP' who owned the tapes. And then the re-issues appeared. And re-appeared, and got re-mastered. While saxophonist/ ex-recording artist Sonny Simmons lived on the streets. Remco ps Simmons is currently doing better as far as I know, be it under humble financial conditions. _______________________________________________ zorn-list mailing list zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list
on 7/29/02 10:33 AM, josephneff at jneff@visuallink.com wrote:
But I'm wondering, when Impulse! reissued that run of stuff that included Cecil, Roswell Rudd, Dewey Redmen, Sam Rivers etc., were the musicians paid anything? Indie labels have got nothing on the majors regarding unscrupulous business practices.
I remain....
Joseph
Actually, I've seen the indies -- espec Del-Fi -- run scams and outright thefts that would really impress the majors. One friend of mine (on an indie) had the label he was on audited by BMI, and they shook loose so much moeny so quickly that my buddy had to spend it, in a hurry, on something business releated (which turned out to be an SUV, for touring purposes). makes you wonder. Odds are, Cecil et al aren't being cut new checks as artists for the new Impulse reissues. But I'll guarantee you that they're seeing publishing royalties, because, to major, it's cheaper and quicker to actually pay publishing than to dicker over it, espec with someone who sells in the Cecil Taylor numbers. skip h
participants (11)
-
Alan Lankin -
Alexander Bailey -
Chris Selvig -
Efrén del Valle -
Jim Flannery -
josephneff -
Ken Waxman -
Remco Takken -
Sean Westergaard -
skip Heller -
Steve Smith