Question: Lets say Bill Frisell wants to record an album with Joey Baron, Joe Lavano, and Ron Carter. Does he pay the artist out of the royalties? Do they even get paid, and if they do, how much, etc...? I'd really appreciate any info on the matter. I've always been curious about this stuff... ===== -That which is Theo "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." "It is harder to kill a government program that it is to kill a vampire." www.fstylee.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
on 7/29/02 12:25 PM, Theo Klaase at river_of_dogs@yahoo.com wrote:
Question: Lets say Bill Frisell wants to record an album with Joey Baron, Joe Lavano, and Ron Carter. Does he pay the artist out of the royalties? Do they even get paid, and if they do, how much, etc...?
Unless the sidemen cut a deal for $ on the back end (which is foolhardy unless you're a guy with a huge rep & you're playing on a Diana Krall album or something you know is gonna really sell). Also, who your label is totally counts. Even tho Dave Douglas Sextet records still mean mostly the same guys, the budget has almost certainly gone up since the move to RCA. And the sidemen on those records are definitely getting more $ than ever before. But backend royalty points -- espec against up-front money -- are a pretty rare thing unless it's a star sideman of some sort (like a Wayne Shorter) laying on a record everyone is pretty sure will sell in the tens of thousands. So the artist usually has a budget and works with that. For instance: Nonesuch gives Frisell a budget to cover the studio costs and the costs of musicians. A lot of leaders pay a flat rate per day or per project, with special consideration for stuff like seniority or reputation. In other words, I would imagine Chris McBride is more expensive than Scott Colley. But, if it's a Frisell record, I'm sure the sidemen can smell a major-label budget. But so can Chris, so, if you want him on your major-label record and you haven;t done him any favors, he's probably not picking up the phone for less than three grand. If a guy is headlining the Vanguard the wk you call him to play on your record, he then has the right to demand large dollars, because you're hiring his rep. Somebody like Joey Baron won't even look at a per-day rate of under $1000. It probably takes about twice that (unless you're someone like Zorn and getting him lots of high-paying road work, in which case flexibility can be counted upon, unless Joey is just dying to hear what Masada sounds like with Jim Black as the new drummer). It's much cheaper to make a punk rock record where everyone in the band is dying to record. It's called show business, not show art. skip h
A lot of the punk/post-punk recordings are paid for out of the band's pocket, the label pays for mastering and pressing, and then the band gets a percentage of the pressing to sell at shows. As the stakes get higher, the label typically shoulders more of the expenses. And even a cursory look at the history of any genre will show you that musicians get fucked over by labels big and small all of the time. Musicians get one over on labels once in a while, but not too often. At 12:53 PM 7/29/2002 -0700, you wrote:
on 7/29/02 12:25 PM, Theo Klaase at river_of_dogs@yahoo.com wrote:
Question: Lets say Bill Frisell wants to record an album with Joey Baron, Joe Lavano, and Ron Carter. Does he pay the artist out of the royalties? Do they even get paid, and if they do, how much, etc...?
Unless the sidemen cut a deal for $ on the back end (which is foolhardy unless you're a guy with a huge rep & you're playing on a Diana Krall album or something you know is gonna really sell). Also, who your label is totally counts. Even tho Dave Douglas Sextet records still mean mostly the same guys, the budget has almost certainly gone up since the move to RCA. And the sidemen on those records are definitely getting more $ than ever before. But backend royalty points -- espec against up-front money -- are a pretty rare thing unless it's a star sideman of some sort (like a Wayne Shorter) laying on a record everyone is pretty sure will sell in the tens of thousands. So the artist usually has a budget and works with that.
For instance:
Nonesuch gives Frisell a budget to cover the studio costs and the costs of musicians. A lot of leaders pay a flat rate per day or per project, with special consideration for stuff like seniority or reputation. In other words, I would imagine Chris McBride is more expensive than Scott Colley. But, if it's a Frisell record, I'm sure the sidemen can smell a major-label budget. But so can Chris, so, if you want him on your major-label record and you haven;t done him any favors, he's probably not picking up the phone for less than three grand. If a guy is headlining the Vanguard the wk you call him to play on your record, he then has the right to demand large dollars, because you're hiring his rep.
Somebody like Joey Baron won't even look at a per-day rate of under $1000. It probably takes about twice that (unless you're someone like Zorn and getting him lots of high-paying road work, in which case flexibility can be counted upon, unless Joey is just dying to hear what Masada sounds like with Jim Black as the new drummer).
It's much cheaper to make a punk rock record where everyone in the band is dying to record.
It's called show business, not show art.
skip h
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Chris Selvig
on 7/29/02 1:29 PM, Chris Selvig at selvig@sonic.net wrote:
A lot of the punk/post-punk recordings are paid for out of the band's pocket, the label pays for mastering and pressing, and then the band gets a percentage of the pressing to sell at shows.
As seeing any money for records goes, this is the best way for the touring artist. Who then can actually convert the currency -- on the spot -- to motel rooms, gas for the van, Grand Slams at Denny's (the road rats beacon in the night).
As the stakes get higher, the label typically shoulders more of the expenses.
Well, the premlimnary gamble is over at that point, and the band can actually demand something. Labels gamble on bands.
And even a cursory look at the history of any genre will show you that musicians get fucked over by labels big and small all of the time.
Less with big labels these days. The amounts of $ they throw around actually justify the expense of a lawyer. And anyone who goes into any kind of negotiation over thousands of $ without the benefit of council is purely studpid at this point. But hiring a lawyer to collect $500 isn't worth it unless you're really out to set a precedent.
Musicians get one over on labels once in a while, but not too often.
Except Zappa, who spent hundreds of thousands to get his work back, I'd love to know of whom you speak and I'd like to know how they won. THIS IS NOT FACETIOUS. Cases where the fat cats lose are generally buried. skip h
I did say not too often, but Wilco's move from Reprise to Nonesuch is a recent example. I have to assume their lawyer did a really good job w/ their Reprise contract, reinforcing your point about lawyers. At 01:39 PM 7/29/2002 -0700, skip Heller wrote:
on 7/29/02 1:29 PM, Chris Selvig at selvig@sonic.net wrote:
A lot of the punk/post-punk recordings are paid for out of the band's pocket, the label pays for mastering and pressing, and then the band gets a percentage of the pressing to sell at shows.
As seeing any money for records goes, this is the best way for the touring artist. Who then can actually convert the currency -- on the spot -- to motel rooms, gas for the van, Grand Slams at Denny's (the road rats beacon in the night).
As the stakes get higher, the label typically shoulders more of the expenses.
Well, the premlimnary gamble is over at that point, and the band can actually demand something. Labels gamble on bands.
And even a cursory look at the history of any genre will show you that musicians get fucked over by labels big and small all of the time.
Less with big labels these days. The amounts of $ they throw around actually justify the expense of a lawyer. And anyone who goes into any kind of negotiation over thousands of $ without the benefit of council is purely studpid at this point. But hiring a lawyer to collect $500 isn't worth it unless you're really out to set a precedent.
Musicians get one over on labels once in a while, but not too often.
Except Zappa, who spent hundreds of thousands to get his work back, I'd love to know of whom you speak and I'd like to know how they won. THIS IS NOT FACETIOUS. Cases where the fat cats lose are generally buried.
skip h
Chris Selvig
on 7/29/02 1:46 PM, Chris Selvig at selvig@sonic.net wrote:
I did say not too often, but Wilco's move from Reprise to Nonesuch is a recent example. I have to assume their lawyer did a really good job w/ their Reprise contract, reinforcing your point about lawyers.
That was one of the most well-orchestrated ploys I've ever seen, both in terms of however the move was negotiated and how it was publicized. I've never seen a move like that handled with greater finesse. And in the overhaul, they still wound up at AOL/Time Warners (ie the same people are still signing their checks), while getting tons of publicity and generating all this "We're doing this for the music" hype. I have to admire that. Maybe next they can sign directly to Ted Turner. skip h NP: john oswald, plunderphonics
participants (3)
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Chris Selvig -
skip Heller -
Theo Klaase