Hi Efrén, I think there is a big difference between 500 years old history and 50 years old history. And, much more important, there is no way we can compare Sharon, Bush or even Stalin to Hitler. 6,000,000 Jews were killed, more than a half of all at that time. Think about it for a second. I know, it is a new trend especially in Europe either to pretend that nothing remarkable really happened or that it was Jews' fault that it happened. It is a dangerous trend, don't you think? BTW, people can make their statements about the things which are important for them. There should be no logic like "if he says this then why he didn't say that". Dave Douglas was talking about Yugoslavia, Marc Ribot - about the crisis in the Middle East, so why Zorn cannot talk about Nazis? Friday, February 20, 2004, 4:11:18 PM, you wrote: EdV> If every non-American musician cried out on stage EdV> against everything that the US government has done EdV> against civil rights, freedom, democracy, etc, Zorn's EdV> statements in Germany would be justified. I think it's EdV> a bit of a simplistic attitude, to say the least, to EdV> raise your fist against Nazi Germany 50 years later to EdV> an audience that probably was a small spermatozoid EdV> swimming peacefully back then, or even less than that. EdV> Did he say anything when he presented Masada in Israel EdV> against Ariel Sharon's massacres? Did he say anything EdV> in Sevilla about the way the Spanish kingdom treated EdV> Arabs & Jews 500 hundred years ago? Or about terrorism EdV> in Spain? (Because we've suffered a bit of that for EdV> over 30 years and nobody moved a finger) Come on. -- All the best, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/

Dear Efrén, I apologize if my words sounded like I blame you being anti-Semitic. I certainly don't have any doubts that you are not. Although the "US are much more used to immigration" the racism level was never low here. And it is not low now. Segregation and almost complete demolition of the Native Americans are not the brightest pages of the American history. However, looking into the recent past you cannot imagine that ultra-rights will become the members of the parliament or even run for the presidency, like it happens these days in Europe. Europe in the past, probably not so recent past though, used to have huge waves of migrants. A little bit less than a hundred years ago lots and lots of Russians flooded Paris, Berlin as well as Constantinople. They built Russian communities, opened their own restaurants, basically occupied certain districts. That was the most recent story probably. Years before the whole Roman nation was somehow digested by Semitic tribes. You would hardly find blonde or red headed and blue eyed people at the South of Europe anymore. I wouldn't say that all these things happened peacefully but I would disagree that migration is a new thing for Europe. Of course, in Russia the tendencies are simply the worst of all over here in the US or there in Europe. The genocide is growing. Obviously European and American attitudes about "the strangers" (leaving aside that in Europe it is inside the country chauvinism and in the US it is mostly exported "the war with the terrorism") are helping the Russian government to pretend that it acts "just like the others". As of the Zorn's statements and his innocent audience, I don't know exactly what was in his statements, so it's probably completely wrong what I am going to say. Anyway, I believe that lots of people who didn't do or even think anything wrong just don't do anything right as well. The level of ignorance is high and that what gives the others their power. It's not enough do not support fascists or whoever they are. These organizations are famous being able to grow fast and be very active. So if today we won't say no to them, tomorrow it might be too late. That's why I don't see anything wrong in reminding loyal audience a little bit of the history. Sorry for being a little too sentimental and propagandistic, but I wanted to make it as clear as possible. I do not believe that we will witness new Holocaust against Jews or Muslims but I do feel that these tendencies are not really promising. Saturday, February 21, 2004, 4:24:56 AM, you wrote: EdV> Of course there's a big difference between 500 and 50 EdV> yeards, no doubt about it, but someone said that time EdV> didn't matter in a previous posting, something I EdV> didn't agree with. EdV> I don't like to use statistics or counting dead people EdV> in order to categorize the evilness of a determined EdV> political leader. If we go in numbers, then Hitler is EdV> certainly at the top of the "podium". BUt I think that EdV> perhaps, and only perhaps, the audience attending a EdV> Masada show in Germany is not the right people to EdV> shout at about the country's dull past. I've been EdV> there and have made lots of friends and all I saw with EdV> regards to Holocaust was shame, even if they were EdV> totally unrelated to those events. EdV> I don't think there's a growing anti-semitism in EdV> Europe. The US are much more used to immigration than EdV> we are here, and the first reactions are of fear and EdV> rejection. It's a natural thing (not positive, EdV> certainly) that has always happened everywhere. EdV> Probably in a couple of generations nobody will be EdV> surprised to see a district completely inhabited by EdV> Arabs, but now people find it disgusting, specially in EdV> countries where unemployement is high. People feel it EdV> as a threat. OK, that's how things like the Holocaust EdV> started, but I guess this is a completely new and EdV> different situation, hopefully. EdV> With regards to Jews, I think there's a terrible EdV> mistake going on: people are automatically relating EdV> the Jews with the crimes committed in Israel. EdV> I think we tend to take certain events in history, EdV> give them an exceptional relevante (that they have, of EdV> course) and forget about others. Although many EdV> countries in the world have suffered terrorism for EdV> ages, the epitome will always be Sept 11 from now on, EdV> despite of the fact it has been a constant in Russia, EdV> Ireland or Spain for ages. EdV> But that's very different from denying the existance EdV> of the Holocaust, which is totally ridiculous and EdV> reprehensible. EdV> To avoid any misunderstanding, my father comes from a EdV> Jewish lineage. EdV> --- Peter Gannushkin <shkin@shkin.com> escribió: > Hi EdV> Efrén,

...

I think there is a big difference between 500 years old history and 50 years old history. And, much more important, there is no way we can compare Sharon, Bush or even Stalin to Hitler. 6,000,000 Jews were killed, more than a half of all at that time. Think about it for a second. I know, it is a new trend especially in Europe either to pretend that nothing remarkable really happened or that it was Jews' fault that it happened. It is a dangerous trend, don't you think?

BTW, people can make their statements about the things which are important for them. There should be no logic like "if he says this then why he didn't say that". Dave Douglas was talking about Yugoslavia, Marc Ribot - about the crisis in the Middle East, so why Zorn cannot talk about Nazis?

Friday, February 20, 2004, 4:11:18 PM, you wrote: EdV> If every non-American musician cried out on stage EdV> against everything that the US government has done EdV> against civil rights, freedom, democracy, etc, Zorn's EdV> statements in Germany would be justified. I think it's EdV> a bit of a simplistic attitude, to say the least, to EdV> raise your fist against Nazi Germany 50 years later to EdV> an audience that probably was a small spermatozoid EdV> swimming peacefully back then, or even less than that. EdV> Did he say anything when he presented Masada in Israel EdV> against Ariel Sharon's massacres? Did he say anything EdV> in Sevilla about the way the Spanish kingdom treated EdV> Arabs & Jews 500 hundred years ago? Or about terrorism EdV> in Spain? (Because we've suffered a bit of that for EdV> over 30 years and nobody moved a finger) Come on.

-- All the best, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/

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EdV> ___________________________________________________ EdV> Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versión GRATIS EdV> Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más... EdV> http://messenger.yahoo.es EdV> _______________________________________________ EdV> zorn-list mailing list EdV> zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com EdV> To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below EdV> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list -- All the best, Peter Gannushkin URL: http://downtownmusic.net/