I think the Belgians invented French Fries?!
Well, damn yes we did! From the years 1600 on. First the poor people fried little fish they caught. In the winter the water froze, and people couldn't catch fish. As a replacement they cut potatoes in the shape of fish and fried them. The Belgian fries were born! And we eat them with mayonnaise! Eating mcd in France, because u can't find any better/cheaper? How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture... JaWe
How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture...
It could be argued that Americans have no culture what so ever. America has only existed in a global age. There was no time for its culture to evolve in isolation (despite the desire of many conservatives). From the beginning American culture has been affected by other cultures in the world, both indirectly and directly (immigrants). It's not fair to compare American culture (300/400 years old or so) to other cultures that have been 1000s of years in the making. I do think that there are some uniquely American culture inventions (not all of them good and in no particular order) such as television, fast food, jazz, film (I will concede non-Americans have done and do film just as well if not better than Americans), telephone, computers, various other technical innovations that I can't seem to remember at the moment. Many of these have found their way into other cultures and have changed the way the those people lead their lives as in the example of the telephone or television.
repeated listens to me reveal a pastiche of styles that don't quite transcend the genres he blends (actually, he doesn't so much blend as ram genres together).
In the above comment about Naked City, substitute cultures for styles and you have a pretty accurate description of American culture. So, I guess Zorn is a truly an American artist, not simply by nationality or geography, but by aesthetics, method, and theme. He is one of the few American artists that don't ape European artists (there are others don't get me wrong). It comes back to Zorn. Zach
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:48:38 +0200 "> chromasoom audio visuele communicatie >" <mail@chromasoom.be> wrote:
How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture...
How odd, you really seem to have no clue as to American culture. There are actually a wide variety of American food cultures and regional cooking styles. A moment of actual research and thought might avoid foolish comments such as that. -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:56:18 -0700 Joseph Zitt wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:48:38 +0200 "> chromasoom audio visuele communicatie >" <mail@chromasoom.be> wrote:
How odd. Americans really seem to have no food culture...
How odd, you really seem to have no clue as to American culture. There are actually a wide variety of American food cultures and regional cooking styles. A moment of actual research and thought might avoid foolish comments such as that.
Totally agree (but not sure I could say the same of English food :-). Anyway, there is in old Europe this hackneyed cliche of America being too young to have a culture. Surprisingly, many Americans (usually among the educated ones) confirm it and apologize. The argument used is: look, we (European) have been around for so long and you (American) are still a young country. This is almost as ridiculous as a clueless adult talking to a talended young kid about the experience that age brings... This of course totally misses the point that it is not the age of a society but its achievements that are important. Taking the case of France, yes that country had to go through a long and painful process to be where it is now. But are people naive to the point of thinking that one century during the Middle Age can be compared in achievements with, for example, the 18th century? Based on the exponential growth happening in any domain of human creation, it is ridiculous to put an equal weight on every centuries. I think the same applies to the USA. They might have missed the dark age of Middle Age, and taken a while to get started but when I look at the past 50 years, USA has surpassed everybody (technology, arts, etc). We (Europe) had to go through a lot of trouble but fortunately US was able to skip that (learning from our mistakes) and get where it is quicker. Look at painting, dance, litterature, some of the most important artists to come up in the past fifty years are American and this was new, and realizing that was quite a shock for Europeans not willing to give up their condescending attitude toward the "new" nation. Go even earlier with litterature: what was the hot shit in the '20s and '30s? Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Steinbeck, Faulkner. And this was just the beginning, the awakening. When is this stupid cliche of America having no culture will stop? There is almost not a trend these days that does not originate there. And what can the old world do when most of its youth espouses uncritically anything coming out of the States? I could almost say the most important cultural revolution of the past century was the explosion of talent and creativity coming out of the USA (and no doubt that that created a lot of jealousy and resentment in the old world). Now I am sure that somebody will say that achievements and culture are different. In a modern world like ours, I think it is slowly becoming the same. And even if it was not the case, I think it is almost becoming an irrelevant point. How can you keep your culture alive and push it if you have no achievements to bring on the table (besides the one of the past, it goes without saying)? I think this is the main dilemma that many countries are facing right now (they want their (old) culture to be recognized because they have little to show that is new). On the opposite side, USA have little to show from the past, but a lot of new things to bring. Patrice (who loves the creative side of the USA).
on 7/11/02 10:31 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
When is this stupid cliche of America having no culture will stop? There is almost not a trend these days that does not originate there. And what can the old world do when most of its youth espouses uncritically anything coming out of the States?
It's a tough question when your chief cultural exports are movies in the Stallone style, food in the McDonald's style, and music in the Spears style. This is really a land of infinite variety. The variation on how to cook spare ribs alone are a subculture (no joke). But -- and I think this is the mark of a country who found its legs via industrialization and not art -- we tend to export stuff that either shows a profit or technological/military superiority. By the end of the 20th century, we were bringing as much to the world table of culture as anyone. The only cultural card we couldn't trump was the Beatles. But the cards we tended to show were not the ones that refelected the best of our culture. Just the best selling. That said, it's ignorant to dismiss a culture that can produce Stevie Wonder, William Faulkner, the Coen Brothers, the original Saturday Night Live, and Raymond Carver -- in sixty years. But I don't think the Europeans are ready to give it up just yet. skip h np: naftule brandwein -- king of the klezmer clarinet (rounder)
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:57:38 -0700 skip Heller wrote:
on 7/11/02 10:31 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
When is this stupid cliche of America having no culture will stop? There is almost not a trend these days that does not originate there. And what can the old world do when most of its youth espouses uncritically anything coming out of the States?
It's a tough question when your chief cultural exports are movies in the Stallone style, food in the McDonald's style, and music in the Spears style.
Why always taking the worst examples? US has produced many talented commercial successes (Dylan, Prince, Madonna, etc). When Hollywood made the movies that are almost acknowledged now as the masterpieces of the genre (and let's limit ourselves to the '40s and '50s to avoid controversy), do you really believe that they were targetting the intellectuals and happy few? These movies were popular successes that we now consider as masterpieces. Our obsession with the obscure, the challenging, etc (and I know that you, Skip, do not belong to that category) makes us forget how much durable talent can hide behind something that appears as mundane at first (and how the new punch-in-the-face can quickly become jaded and tiring). It is Hitchcock who said (from memory): If a blank canvas cost millions of dollars, brushes and color tubes as much, we would have a different outlook at artistic freedom. That could explain why old Hollywood movies were so good in average (I guess because these huge sums of money were put in the hands of people who had proven a minimum of craftmanship). But we can wonder, just for fun, if we are not missing something unique: an experimental movie director with a Hollywood budget. Patrice.
on 7/11/02 11:29 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
Why always taking the worst examples? US has produced many talented commercial successes (Dylan, Prince, Madonna, etc).
I was using the most recent examples. I should have made that more clear.
When Hollywood made the movies that are almost acknowledged now as the masterpieces of the genre (and let's limit ourselves to the '40s and '50s to avoid controversy), do you really believe that they were targetting the intellectuals and happy few? These movies were popular successes that we now consider as masterpieces.
I think that's a loaded question, in that the 40s were responsible for some of the most crappy, sugar-sweet successes film had ever known. Billy Wilder stands out fr the rest of the pack because the movies he made were not typical.
Our obsession with the obscure, the challenging, etc (and I know that you, Skip, do not belong to that category) makes us forget how much durable talent can hide behind something that appears as mundane at first (and how the new punch-in-the-face can quickly become jaded and tiring).
You're right. Anyone who knows "Love Me Do" will back you up.
It is Hitchcock who said (from memory):
If a blank canvas cost millions of dollars, brushes and color tubes as much, we would have a different outlook at artistic freedom.
True. But that doesn'r negate the difference between SONGS IN THE KEY OF LIFE and TUSK.
That could explain why old Hollywood movies were so good in average (I guess because these huge sums of money were put in the hands of people who had proven a minimum of craftmanship).
Well, the craftsmanship ethic was higher on certain levels, but that doesn't mean they always told the story better or that the story was worth telling.
But we can wonder, just for fun, if we are not missing something unique: an experimental movie director with a Hollywood budget.
I didn't miss FARGO. ;-) skip h
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:29:36 -0700 "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com> wrote:
But we can wonder, just for fun, if we are not missing something unique: an experimental movie director with a Hollywood budget.
Well, I'm not much into movies, but Baz Luhrmann, David Lynch, Mike Figgis, and Christopher Nolan easily come to mind. -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
-----Original Message----- From: zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:zorn-list-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Patrice L. Roussel Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 2:30 PM To: skip Heller Cc: Patrice L. Roussel; Joseph Zitt; > chromasoom audio visuele communicatie >; zorn-list@mailman.xmission.com; proussel@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: re : mcdonalds When Hollywood made the movies that are almost acknowledged now as the masterpieces of the genre (and let's limit ourselves to the '40s and '50s to avoid controversy), do you really believe that they were targetting the intellectuals and happy few? These movies were popular successes that we now consider as masterpieces. Hello, ...for me, this brings to mind the slew of American films and directors that were championed in the '50's in France by Bazin, Godard, Truffaut, etc. They were particularly fond of B-grade noir, which was stuff that was certainly not targeting intellectuals or the happy few. It was also work that was, for the most part (Manny Farber being my favorite exception), overlooked in the states during that period. I've always enjoyed the fact that Hollywood employed guys like Anthony Mann, Sam Fuller, Robert Aldrich, etc. purely for the $$$ motive, while thousands of miles away film fans were appreciating these movies on a level far above what Hollywood had ever intended. I remain... Joseph NP: The Holy Modal Rounders- "The Moray Eels Eat the Holy Modal Rounders" CD NR: George P. Pelecanos- "King Suckerman"
Patrice:
Anyway, there is in old Europe this hackneyed cliche of America being too young to have a culture. Surprisingly, many Americans (usually among the educated ones) confirm it and apologize.
I've experienced the same thing, especially with intellectuals which still associate e.g. Germany with Nietzsche and Kant and give even the mediocrest German a credit for that.
The argument used is: look, we (European) have been around for so long and you (American) are still a young country. This is almost as ridiculous as a clueless adult talking to a talended young kid about the experience that age brings...
I didn't mean to count years to infer cultural matureness... I was just bothered by the someone's implication that compared with the U.S. the rest of the world consists only of developing countries. I've heard that too often from Americans which politely ask if one can buy tooth paste in Europe or if they have to bring some when they visit. (Oddly, this kind of questions often comes from people which drive a Mercedes or Porsche... and who state that there was one good thing with Hitler: he invented the Highway)
I could almost say the most important cultural revolution of the past century was the explosion of talent and creativity coming out of the USA (and no doubt that that created a lot of jealousy and resentment in the old world).
I agree. One could even claim that this is a reason for this list to exist. Fritz (who also loves the creative side of the U.S.)
participants (7)
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> chromasoom audio visuele communicatie > -
Fritz Feger -
Joseph Zitt -
josephneff -
Patrice L. Roussel -
skip Heller -
Zachary Steiner