September 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: New New York Art Quartet at Willisau (JZ content)
by Ben Axelrad 03 Sep '02

03 Sep '02

The trio of Niggli, Wogram, and Schaufelberger (Lucas Niggli's Zoom) released an album on Intakt last year that is very nice. Lots of fast, intricate compositions. I think there are some reviews at the Intakt site, www.intaktrec.ch. Niggli and Schaufelberger also play in Pierre Favre's European Chamber Orchestra, who also released a beautiful album on Intakt. I also really like Niggli's work with Steamboat Switzerland. I saw them over a year ago at a very poorly attended show in Chicago, and they were amazing, especially Niggli. The SS disc on Unit is a lot of fun, but I've heard less than positive reviews of the newer ones on Grob. >From: Thierry Raguin <thierryraguin(a)urbanet.ch> >To: zorn-list <zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Subject: New New York Art Quartet at Willisau (JZ content) >Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 21:08:58 +0200 > > >Hi everyone! > >I just came back from Willisau where the New New York Art Quartet, >featuring John Zorn, was playing. > >There were two short concerts in the afternoon (around 1 1/2 hour each). > >The first concert was a Swiss band called Lucas Niggli's Big Zoom with >Lucas Niggli (drums, percussion), Nils Wogram (trombone), Philipp >Schaufelberger (guitar), and Claudio Puntin (clarinet, bass clarinet) and >Peter Herbert (double-bass) as special guests. It was trully amazing!!! >This band is really really impressing. All musicians were great, especially >Nils Wogram (who also played yesterday with Fred Frith and Aki Takase): >this young guy is really promissing. Although the two guests were also >amazing (at some point, Puntin reminded me of how Zorn is playing), I would >have liked to see just the trio: they really know each other very well and >the addition of two players to the band was limiting their play. They wrote >the whole music down and thus improvised less. They didn't go as far as >they would have if they were just three. Too bad... But their performance >was still great! > >The NNYAQ (Milford Graves: drums and percussion - Roswell Rudd: trombone - >Reggie Workman: double-bass - John Zorn: alto sax) started very slowly. >They entered on stage one by one. First Workman playing a little bass solo >(this guy has extremely long fingers!), then Rudd and Graves... Quite nice >but nothing great... Then came Zorn and the whole show started. For old >guys, they really kicked ass! And you could really see the chemistry and >respect between the musicians: at some point, Zorn was not playing and he >was sitting and looking at the others with a giant smile on his face. >Later, Graves started to sing something like "Mama John Zorn" (!) and went >dancing and crawling at Zorn's feet. Then he jumped out of the scene and >started to dance among the audience. At this point, Zorn stopped playing >and took pictures of Graves from a camera he took out of his pocket! Really >funny to watch! Of course, musically speaking, it was also great, lots of >improvisation, technically flawless, with some nice strange ideas (Workman >blowing in a big plastic tube stucked behind the strings of his bass, Rudd >playing with a towel on his trombone, etc.). > >Both concerts were trully great and I'm really glad I was there (and I >managed to buy tons of CDs there :') ). > >- TR > >PS: sorry, this message might arrive twice. I sent it previously with >another e-mail address. Ups :') > > >_______________________________________________ >zorn-list mailing list >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage below >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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Re: New New York Art Quartet at Willisau (JZ content)
by Arthur Gadney 03 Sep '02

03 Sep '02

Hi. >All musicians were great, especially Nils Wogram (who also played yesterday >with Fred Frith and Aki Takase): this young guy is really promissing. How was the Frith show?? I'm very curious about this "Aki Takase Blues Project". Thanx. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Re: closing of the American mind
by thesubtlebody 03 Sep '02

03 Sep '02

Arthur Gadney wrote [re: Noam Chomsky]: > "Understanding Power". I think it's the newest one. > I heartly recommend it, > even for people who disagree with or just generally > dislike Chomsky. It a > collection of interviews, very funny and thought > provocing. And, the main > reason for getting this book, it has 500 pages of > footnotes which are > available for free. [snip] Are these footnotes available online? I was thinking of getting the book, but even on the New Press website, I see no mention of said footnotes? Where are they available? I notice that the text of the book itself isn't even 500 pages. Yowsa! -----s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com

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Re: Francis Davis on Don't Ask, Don't Tell
by Steve Smith 03 Sep '02

03 Sep '02

Davis's article represents the majority of what happened at that panel accurately (and does little else, with all respect to Davis, a fine writer). But he managed, possibly out of collegial respect, NOT to report the thing that *actually* pissed off Hersch (a close friend of mine, so I feel free to read into his thoughts to some extent here) and the others assembled the most. One prominent, respected white male jazz journalist (who I'll not name, again out of collegial respect) got up to defend the "don't ask, don't tell" policy on the part of the media by saying that an artist's private life isn't necessarily germane to a discussion of his art, and that he most likely wouldn't put forward the question unless an artist volunteered and emphasized it first. Innocent enough, perhaps, but what followed was the problem: "After all, I wouldn't ask if an artist were a wife beater or a pedophile, either..." You can *imagine* what that little faux pas touched off. The writer's unintentional, subconscious equation of homosexuality with spousal abuse and pedophilia was the most telling and electric moment in a panel that was otherwise mostly polite to the point of being staid. Compared to that, Hersch's quip about including "Song for My Lover Irving" on his next record, cited by Davis, was positively tame. In comparison to his suave veneer, Bey was mostly rather cantankerous, but it appeared to have less to do with homosexual persecution and far more to do with being an outsider to the jazz industry in general - he seem more intent on letting everyone know that the very club we were sitting in had not booked him in many years, but didn't go so far as to suggest that it was because of his sexual identity. The thing that most rankled Burton, it seemed, was that Jazz Times had recently published a letter (in response to the magazine's recent "sex and jazz" issue) that essentially said no more than "faggots don't swing," using just that term. The argument itself was an old trope previously leveled at other minorities and outsiders, including white musicians (Roy Eldridge's famous argument that he could always identify a white musician blindfolded - which he couldn't, when tested - and Steve Coleman's more recent and rather unfortunate echoes of that sentiment in Jazz Times's "race" issue). Burton's ire was more directed at the irresponsibility of Jazz Times in publishing what amounted to an ignorant hate screed in the first place, given that they presumably would NOT publish a letter that said "niggers just shuck and jive." Otherwise, it was a reasonably good and informative panel. That Bey was the only openly gay black musician on the bandstand didn't really surprise me, since there are fewer openly gay black men, period (note I said "openly"). But the fact that Francis couldn't track down a single lesbian participant, especially given the percentage of female jazz musicians who are lesbians (it's not a required pairing, but it's hardly uncommon), was particularly unfortunate - especially since my girlfriend, who works with a LOT of female musicians, told me that one woman player who was invited actually was NOT a lesbian... Steve Smith ssmith36(a)sprynet.com NP - Faure, Violin Sonata No. 2 - Isabelle Faust (Harmonia Mundi)

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RE: Closing of the American Mind
by Downard, Peter 03 Sep '02

03 Sep '02

Rather than actually reading Bloom, go read Saul Bellow's Ravelstein, the author's protrait of his late friend Bloom. You will get a better sense of Bloom's humanity, complete with the flaws that Big Business found so attractive in promoting the hell out of his stupid book. Peter Downard > ---------- > From: Marcin Gokieli[SMTP:marcingokieli@go2.pl] > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 7:50 AM > To: zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com; Stephen Fruitman > Subject: Odp: Closing of the American Mind > > > Stephen Fruitman <Stephen.fruitman(a)idehist.umu.se> wrote: > > >Bloom is very eloquent and very provokative. Provokative reading is a > good > thing, no? :-) > > Bloom is just offensive. Alasdiar MacIntyre is provocative, and he is > really > interesting. > > Marcin > > > _______________________________________________ > zorn-list mailing list > zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com > To UNSUBSCRIBE or Change Your Subscription Options, go to the webpage > below > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/zorn-list >

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Recommended Records Shopping Cart, Updates and Launch Sale !
by zampino 03 Sep '02

03 Sep '02

At long last Recommended Records (ReR Megcorp) has a shopping cart! As part of our launch we're running a large sale, which is listed below. I apologize for the length of the posting, but it's been quite awhile since I've posted and I believe this is a really good sale of interest to prog and avante listeners. We've also posted our regular update, which is available at the following address or from the home page at http://www.rermegacorp.com/ http://www.rermegacorp.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RM&C ategory_Code=CU NEW SITE LAUNCH SALE ReR Megacorp Launch Sale - Ends September 23: http://www.rermegacorp.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RM&C ategory_Code=SO CLOSES SEPTEMBER 23rd --Fuller descriptions of all titles can be found on the site. --For more than 2 SALE titles, Postage and Packing is Free, otherwise add 1.50 pounds, $2.25 or 2.5 Euros each. --For every SIX sale CD s purchased together, you can add any 6 pound title extra free. £6 ReR 5UU's. Crisis in Clay. ReR 5UUS BIOTA. Tumble. ReR BCD BIOTA. Almost Never. ReR BCD3 BIOTA. Object Holder. ReR BCD4 BIOTA. Invisible Map. ReR BCD5 BOB DRAKE. Little Black Train. MNEMONIST ORCHESTRA. Horde. ReR MO1 JON ROSE. Brainweather. ReR BJRCD2 JON ROSE. ShoppingLive@Victo. ReR JR4 JON ROSE. The Fence. ReR JR5 JON ROSE. Hyperstring Project. ReR JR6 BORIS KOVACS. Ritual Nova. ReR BKCD1 CASSIBER. Beauty and the Beast. ReR CCD3 CUTLER/FRITH. Moscow, Prague, Washington ReR CCFFCD CUTLER/DIMUZIO. Quake. ReR CCTD1 CUTLER/DEROME/LUSSIER. Three Pieces Suite. ReR LDC1 CUTLER/GLANDIEN. Domestic Stories. ReR LSMCD CUTLER/PARKINS. Shark. ReR CZ1 OSWALD, MOORE, KATZER, KRCEK. CMCD. ReR CMCD DUMITRESCU, AVRAM, HODGJKINSON, CUTLER. ReR DACH1 ERNO KIRALY. Phoenix. ReR EK1 FRED FRITH. The Previous Evening. ReR FF1 LES QUATRE GUITARISTES DE L'APOCALYPSO-BAR. World Tour. ReR GQ1 GROUND ZERO. Revolutionary Pekinese Opera. ReR GZ1 HACO. Happiness Proof. ReR HACO2 HAIL. Kirk. ReR HCD2 JOCELYN ROBERT. Folie Culture. ReR JORCD KAMPEC DOLORES. Rapid. ReR KD1 KALAHARI SURFERS. The 80's. ReR KS1 LUTZ GLANDIEN. Scenes from No Marriage. ReR LG1 LESEGO RAMPOLOKENG/SURFERS. End Beginnings. ReR LRSCD1 LAGOS/VENOSTA/MARIANI. ReR LVM1 MUSCI/VENOSTA. Messages and Portraits ReR MVCD THE (ec) NUDES. Vanishing Point. ReR N1 NORMA/CUTLER. The Harp and the Donkey. ReR NORMA1 OSSATURA/HODGKINSON. Dentro. ReR 01 p53. p53. Rer p53. PETER BLEGVAD. Hangman's Hill. ReR PB3 ReR QUARTERLY SELECTIONS VOL 1. ReR QCDI ReR QUARTERLY SELECTIONS VOL 2. QCD2 ISTVAN MARTA. The Wind Rises. ReR SD1 TOM DIMUZIO. Headlock. ReR TD1 TICKMAYER FORMATIO. Wilhelm Dances. ReR TFCD TIM HODKINSON. Pragma. ReR TH1 MICHAEL VOGT. Tuba Intim. ReR TUBA1 ZGA. Sub Luna Morrior. ReR ZGA3 ZGA. Zgamoniums. ReR ZGACD ZNR. Barricade 3. ReR ZNR1 ANGELICA TRISTAN HONSINGER. This That and The Other. AIAI 009 GIOVANNI MARINI. Requiem. IDA 015 TERRY RILEY/STEFANO SCODANIBBIO Lazy Afternoon....Crocodiles. AIAI 008 SPECCHIO ENSEMBLE. Per Qintetto Doppio. CAICAI 005 VAKKI PLAKKULA. Una Barca. ANGELICA 93. CAICAI 004 ANGELICA 94 CAICAI 006 ANGELICA 95 CAICAI 007 ANGELICA 96 CAICAI 011 FRED FRITH. Brick, Glass, Wood, Wire. (double CD 14 pounds). IDA 014 FOREVER EINSTEIN. Opportunity.. RUNE 41 JON ROSE. Exiles. Mega EXILES1 AMY DENIO. Birthing Chair Blues ______________________________ £4.25 ESD HENRY COW RELEASES Legend and IPOL have extra tracks not available on our definitive reissues, but the sound quality and packaging are very inferior. HENRY COW. Legend. ESD VERSION HENRY COW. In Praise oF Learning. ESD VERSION FAUST CD OLD VERSIONS Inferior pressings and packaging, but maybe as an introduction... FAUST. 71 Minutes OLD VERSION _______________________________________ £7 AMBIANCES MAGNETIQUES LES GRANULES. Au Royaume De Silenceux AM018CD GENEVIEVE LETARTE. Vous Series une Ange AM020CD MICHEL FAUBERT Maudite Memoire AM021CD UNE THEORIE DES ENSEMBLES. AM022CD VARIOUS. Life in the Sucide Riots AM023CD ROBERT LEPAGE. Adieu Leonardo AM024CD ROBERT LEPAGE Les Choses Dernieres AM035CD BRUIRE Les Fleurs de Leo. AM025CD JEAN DEROME Musiques Pour Ubu. Am030CD DIANE LABROSSE/M.F.COTE Duo AM031CD JEAN DEROME ET LES DANGEROUS ZHOMS Carnets AM032CD BRUIRE L'Ami de L'Objet AM034CD AMBIANCES MAGNETIQUES SAMPLER 1 AM039CD AMBIANCES MAGNETIQUES SAMPLER 2 AM045CD ROBERT LEPAGE Les Clarinettes AM0046CD FRED FRITH Ayaya Moses AM051CD LEPAGE/TETREAULT Callas AM059CD M.F.COTE Compil Zouave AM067CD VICTO KONRAD BAUER Toronto Tone VICTOCD 017 ZEENA PARKINS Ursa's Door VICTOCD018 TIETELBAUM/ZINGARO. The Sea Between Us VICTOCD 03 CHRIS BURN Music for Three Rivers VICTOCD 050 ROVA SAXOPHONE QUARTET Bingo VICTOCD 056 MARILYN CRISPELL Labyrinths VICTOCD 06 BORIS KOVACS. East Off Europe. VICTOCD062 COMPILATION 1989 VICTOCD09 OTHER AQSAK MABOU..Un peu de L'ame des Bandits. CRAM 002 PHILHARMONIE. Rage RUNE 84 CURLEW. Beautiful Western Saddle RUNE 50 UNIVERS ZERO Heresie RUNE 29 HUGH HOPPER. 1984. RUNE 104 NEWBAND.Cage, Partch, LaBarbara MODE 18 ANNE LEBARON. Rana, Ritual &.. MODE 30 NEGATIVLAND. Concertland. 180G BIFURCATORS. Gang of 2. ART 1012 CHADIMA/BINDER .Pseudodemocrit... BP0098 CARPENTER. Frog a la Peche. RICK WILSON. Suitable Language DANIEL DENIS. Sirius & the Ghosts. >From A-Z. Steensland ST 203 LES HALMAS. Les Halmas + 1 BOB DRAKE. Little Black Train BORIS KRZISNIK. Stories from Magatrea FRITH/KAISER - Friends and Enemies (dbl CD) CONTROL CSOPORT (dbl CD) CLEARANCE EXTRAS BURRELL/MURRAY In Concert VICTOCD016 PLIMLEY/ELLIS/BENDIAN Noir VICTOCD 022 NON CREDO Happy Wretched Family VICTOCD 033 J.A.DEANE Nomad VICTOCD 035 GEBBIA/PALMA/VILLA Il Libro DICK/BRENNAN/PATUMI Aurealis VICTOCD 052 NEW WINDS Potion VICTOCD 053 MEKONG ZOO - Minimal Dance STEVE McLEAN - Radial Circuit ISLAND OF SANITY - New music from NYC nml 8707cd TOM DIMUZO- Sonicism. RRD CD22 WHEN - Gynt TATCD 036 BANDA ELASTICA - Catalogo. CDLN 04 NEGATIVCONCERTLAND (dbl CD) 180G ====================================================================== BTW, if anyone has problems with the new shopping cart, please don't hesitate to write us using our email form: http://www.rermegacorp.com/email.shtml or contact me directly at zampino(a)rermegacorp.com Thanks! phil zampino Since its inception in 1978 RéR/Recommended has collected, produced and distributed innovative and non-commercial music. Choices are made, and reviews written, by Chris Cutler - see catalogs or visit RéR online at http://www.rermegacorp.com/

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comic kurushi monsters
by Mark Wink 03 Sep '02

03 Sep '02

I paid £15 sterling for it a few years back which doens't strike me as cheap but hardly major profitering. Though if youknow where it can be had for much less I have some friends who'd love to know. It's an album I've never seen going cheap in the shops unlike some of the others in that Virgin series - almost all of which are pretty good to excellent. MW _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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Re: BOREDOMS FUSHITSUSHA MELT BANANA RUINS
by alastair＠pretentious.co.uk 02 Sep '02

02 Sep '02

Michael Gillham wrote: >BOREDOMS FUSHITSUSHA MELT BANANA RUINS >TOKYO INVASION. VOLUME 1 : COSMIC KURUSHI MONSTERS 2 x CD (Virgin, TOKYO1, 1996). >The RESERVE PRICE is ý19.99 which is very fair >considering that this has sold for up to $150 on eBay! Proof that the world has gone mad. It's a nice compilation but I wouldn't pay any more that Michael's reserve price for it. No offence meant to you, Michael! They say fools and their money are easily parted... Alastair -- Personalised email by http://another.com

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RE: Closing of the American Mind (still fairly off topic...)
by billashline＠netscape.net 02 Sep '02

02 Sep '02

"Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>Bloom wasn't wrong in his criticism of the deteriorating, collective >> >academic American "mind," but his assessment of causes was often >rather >>convenient as well as elitist and self-serving. > >Just curious: Did he suggest any way to solve this problem? Well as I recall (I no longer own the book), Bloom promotes a return to classical education--a reading of the "great" books as part of the educational system and the necessity of "cultural literacy" a la his contemporary E.D. Hirsch, who were bothered by the newer emphases in American academia. -- His face is turned towards the past. Where we preceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the angel can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress. --Walter Benjamin on the Angel of History You can always rely on America to do the right thing, once it has exhausted the alternatives. --Winston Churchill __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

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NYTimes.com Article: In the Macho World of Jazz, Don't Ask, Don't Tell
by f.fuchs＠gmx.net 02 Sep '02

02 Sep '02

This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by f.fuchs(a)gmx.net. In the Macho World of Jazz, Don't Ask, Don't Tell September 1, 2002 By FRANCIS DAVIS I have been asked what it's like being white in a field of music that's considered African-American," the vibraphonist Gary Burton says. "I think it would be equally valid to ask me what it's like being gay and playing a form of music that's seen as macho. It's interesting that the subject never seems to come up." Although white jazz fans in particular like to think of themselves as color-blind, it often seems that race is all they ever talk about when the subject is music. There is even a kind of reverse racial profiling that goes on in jazz: white players are pulled over and ticketed for reckless introspection. But whereas race is visible, even if it is becoming less so all the time, sexual orientation usually is not. Within jazz, race is considered a fit topic for public discourse, while a gay sexual orientation is regarded as private, a potential source of embarrassment for performer and audiences alike. It is practically gospel in jazz that a player taking an improvised solo is coming clean, baring his soul, telling us who he is in no uncertain terms. But what if the player is gay? Isn't that as much a clue to his identity as race? Mr. Burton's comments came during a panel discussion about homosexuality in jazz at the Village Vanguard in April, which I moderated. It was presented by the National Arts Journalism Program and Columbia University, and along with the writer Grover Sales, the other panelists were the pianist Fred Hersch, the saxophonist Charlie Kohlhase and the singer and pianist Andy Bey. There appears to be a growing acceptance of homosexuality among the general public. Yet the panel was the first public discussion that anyone could recall to address the topic of homosexuality in jazz. In jazz the rule remains "Don't ask, don't tell." This attitude is ironic because the jazz subculture has been notoriously free and easy, ahead of the beat on most social issues. Safety in numbers may have as much to do as sensibility with drawing gay men to certain professions, like hairdressing and floristry. In general, the performing arts are another area in which the news that someone is gay hardly comes as a shock. But there are ways in which jazz and all of popular music have more in common with baseball than with theater or dance. (Jazz even has its own body of statistics, in the form of discographies, recording dates and musical lineups.) Despite a growing number of female instrumentalists, the audience for jazz remains overwhelmingly male, which perhaps explains why jazz itself remains an enclave of machismo. There was a time when all jazz musicians were straight, as far as anyone knew. The composer and arranger Billy Strayhorn was a notable exception, but he was perfectly happy to spend his career in Duke Ellington's shadow, which was the same as being in the closet. It was only in 1996, with the publication of David Hajdu's Strayhorn biography, "Lush Life," that nonmusicians learned of Strayhorn's homosexuality. A common objection to Mr. Hajdu's book was that Strayhorn's sexual orientation had no bearing on his music. Mr. Burton has been "out" to his friends and associates since the late 1980's, when he took a male date to a party at the Berklee School of Music in Boston, where he has taught since 1971 and is now an executive vice president. "My decision to come out resulted from the end of my second marriage," he said. "I was in my 40's and finally came to the conclusion that I was more gay than straight. The deciding factor was that I got a crush on someone who was very out, and in the course of dating him, I had to be out as well. It didn't last, but I was out by then." Even so, Mr. Burton didn't go public, as it were, until 1994, when he discussed being gay in an interview on National Public Radio. Whatever repercussions he feared, an apparent lack of notice on the part of the jazz press (and by extension, the jazz community) left him more puzzled than relieved. Given his standing in jazz (he has been a consistent Downbeat poll-winner on vibes since the late 60's), it was as if the guest of honor at a formal dinner had noisily slurped his soup or blurted out an off-color remark - best to look the other way. Except for an article about Mr. Burton and other gay musicians in JazzTimes magazine last year, which elicited an angry letter that accused gay musicians of not swinging (long a white stereotype), the jazz press has continued to shy away from the subject, despite his willingness to speak frankly about being that supposedly rarest of creatures, a gay jazz musician. In avoiding questioning Mr. Burton about his sexual orientation, jazz journalists may be guilty of nothing more than trying to guard his privacy, or they might feel it's a nonissue. But this reticence seems disingenuous in light of the role that Miles Davis's reputed prowess with the opposite sex played in defining his appeal to many of his male fans. (Never mind the persistent rumors that Davis was bisexual.) And discretion can be an unintended form of homophobia, said Mr. Hersch. "There are several phases to coming out, and I think most of us went through one when we first told another human being that we were gay," Mr. Hersch said. "We were nervous and looking for the perfect way to put it. Then, over time, we get to where we assume everyone knows and nobody really cares. But the third phase is that in the same way that somebody else might talk about his wife or girlfriend, you want to be able to talk about your boyfriend or lack thereof." Jazz and gay culture may be antithetical. Although the musicians on the panel didn't feel that they had been ostracized since coming out, only Mr. Bey has attracted a sizable gay following since declaring his sexuality. "Once you've found out who you are, you can express your feminine side, your masculine side, you're not afraid to let it all out, and I think a lot of gay people want to hear that," Mr. Bey said. But he is a singer, and there have always been jazz singers like Billie Holiday and Carmen McRae with a gay appeal, regardless of their own sexual orientation. Mr. Burton's experience seems more typical of those on the panel. "One of the surprises for me in coming out was that nobody had ever heard of me and nobody had ever heard of the vibraphone," Mr. Burton said. "I had finally connected with `my people,' and they didn't care. The kinds of music that are popular in gay culture have a high degree of glamour, and jazz is the opposite." In a 1984 article for the magazine The Jazzletter, Mr. Sales noted the scarcity of gay jazz musicians relative to the overall gay population and speculated that the reason for this might be traced to jazz's earliest days, when it gave black men an outlet for expressing an assertive masculinity that they were otherwise forbidden to give voice to. Mr. Sales said jazz offered a similar outlet for the first white jazz musicians, who were likewise discouraged from expressing their masculinity as offspring of a genteel society in which music and the arts in general had become overrefined and, in Mr. Sales's word, "feminized." This is a reasonable enough theory, but it hardly explains why the jazz world - liberal on most issues - finds itself at this late date so far behind the rest of the population on issues relating to gender and sexuality. Except for a crack that if Mr. Hersch wanted to be asked about his love life, he should call a tune on his next album "something like, `For My Lover, Irving,' " there were no hostile comments from the floor during the question-and-answer period that followed the panel. But the Vanguard audience of 100 or so seemed far more comfortable participating in the two discussions that followed, which addressed the economic hardships of playing jazz and the proper roles of critics and scholars - the usual shop talk at jazz get-togethers. My lack of success in putting together a more racially balanced panel (Mr. Bey was the only black participant) raised for me the troubling question of whether gay black musicians face more difficulty in coming out than their white counterparts as a result of greater homophobia in black culture. (Some black denominations have a spotty record on gay issues, and hip-hop's preoccupation with thuggery has set an impossibly high standard of masculinity for young black men.) Despite my best efforts, there were no lesbians on the panel, but women may have a greater disincentive in coming out, because they already have so much going against them as female intruders in a music ruled by men. (To some men, a female drummer or horn player is automatically butch, even if she happens to be straight.) "I know certain gay musicians who are not out who I feel overcompensate by trying to be even more macho than straight musicians," Mr. Hersch said. "And unfortunately, certain women players have also been pressured into higher and louder and faster, with more chops." Whether being gay makes a difference in playing jazz was a question left hanging by Mr. Hersch and the other panelists, and none of the gay musicians I've spoken to in the months since have quite been able to answer it, either. But this doesn't mean that the question is irrelevant, just that gay musicians are still trying to figure it out for themselves. "I usually leave the interviewing up to the interviewer," Mr. Burton said, explaining that journalists typically ask him about his latest recording, his equipment and the trials of balancing teaching and performing. "But this undiscussed area of being a gay man, being part of the gay community - has that affected me creatively? That would be a very interesting thing to explore. But interviewers, maybe because they're not sure how to write about it, stay away from it." Like the others on the panel, Mr. Bey feels the issue warrants discussion. "You have to deal with the issue of who you are, and it can be a difficult issue if you're living a so-called abnormal life," he said. "It needs to be talked about in order to liberate yourself." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/01/arts/music/01DAVI.html?ex=1031985251&ei=1… HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales(a)nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help(a)nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

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