December 2002 - zorn-list - mailman.xmission.com

Re: why isn't it stealing?
by CuneiWay＠aol.com 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

This is all fine & well for *you* John, but just because you feel this way, you should not and can not presume to speak for me, and your feeling this way does not change that fact that people who do this to records on my label are stealing from me and my artists. Steve Cuneiform Records John wrote: >I feel good when someone copies my records. They probably would never have >gone and bought my record in the first place because they did not want >to >drop the $10-13 dollars for it, or maybe did not have the money. Maybe >they >wanted to buy someone else's record instead. I still want them to enjoy >my >record regardless. I don't think it should be up to my listening audience >to >support me financially at all. I will still make records even if I don't >sell another copy of any other release. I make them because I feel the >need >to make records that I want to hear, that do not exist right now. If someone >wants to give me money, fine. If they don't, fine. I don't ever want to >feel >like an employee.

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by CuneiWay＠aol.com 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

John, SINCE you were responding to my posting about copying of my labels releases, I assumed what you were saying was meant to have some bearing on my posting. If you didn't mean that, then that's fine; but why are you quoting me when talking about how you like people to take your music whether they pay for it or not? I assumed that this was a rebuttal against my postings. I'm sure you can understand why I was confused. I apologize for having dragged you into this if I was wrong. Steve >Where did I ever presume to speak for you? You said - "you should not and >can not presume to speak for me". >I was speaking for *me*.

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Re: Comments on CD Burning/Unauthorized Duplication etc.
by Vincent Kargatis 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 21:26:18 -0500 > From: Ellery Eskelin <eskelin(a)earthlink.net> > > Point is well taken and I may yet post some selections. I haven't done it yet > since it's tough for me to decide what's most representative of our sound. > There's no one or two or even three tunes that sum up what we do. True, but keep in mind a summary is not necessary, or even what surfers expect, really (those trying this music out, at least). The goal is only to induce purchases, so lack of summary-representation is a non-issue, as long as you yourself can live with the fact. > Having the entire CD is a much better way to experience it and I think there's > a much better chance that folks will like it if they hear the whole > presentation. Well, audio offerings on a web site will never substitute for the full and real package, so it's sorta another non-issue. Can you improve your sales and fan base by offering stuff on your site, and if so, how? Those are the most relevant questions I can imagine for this particular topic. Although, personally, I think you're better off just offering a smattering of full downloadable tunes on your site, you can also consider doing full-album streams. Streams are inherently low quality (cuz, well, they need to deliver real-time audio), and are one-time listens (i.e. not downloadable). So they deliver the album unit, and aren't likely (as I see it) to act as a purchase substitute. However, I see these as a bit less useful, because the listener needs to allocate an album-length's time to listening to that stream (something I think many potential customers won't try hard to do), and it's also hard to 'fall in love' with a stream, cuz it's harder to return to without deliberate effort (and it doesn't sound so hot). (I'm comparing to a downloaded tune, which can work its way into mp3 playlists and more-easily-repeated plays.) Both can be effective, I think, and both are imo likely more productive than nothing, regarding website-offered audio. If you do decide to offer any audio, keep a minimum excerpt length of 3 minutes or more. Less, I think (and find), is just about useless for any purchase decision. Just my 2 cents as a user of website-offered audio. -- Vincent Kargatis np: Debris - "Oh Be My Bent Recruit" (Live at Rice University (1993))

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

Whoa Steve, Where did I ever presume to speak for you? You said - "you should not and can not presume to speak for me". I was speaking for *me*. Damn. John Schuller >From: CuneiWay(a)aol.com >To: superbadassmofo(a)hotmail.com, velaires(a)earthlink.net, >zorn-list(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: why isn't it stealing? >Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:43:40 EST > >This is all fine & well for *you* John, but just because you feel this way, >you should not and can not presume to speak for me, and your feeling this >way >does not change that fact that people who do this to records on my label >are >stealing from me and my artists. > > > >Steve >Cuneiform Records > > >John wrote: > > >I feel good when someone copies my records. They probably would never >have > >gone and bought my record in the first place because they did not want > >to > >drop the $10-13 dollars for it, or maybe did not have the money. Maybe > >they > >wanted to buy someone else's record instead. I still want them to enjoy > >my > >record regardless. I don't think it should be up to my listening audience > >to > >support me financially at all. I will still make records even if I don't > >sell another copy of any other release. I make them because I feel the > >need > >to make records that I want to hear, that do not exist right now. If >someone > >wants to give me money, fine. If they don't, fine. I don't ever want to > >feel > >like an employee. John Schuller www.johnschuller.com www.worldmisery.com do you know the deutsch that I'm sprechen? _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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Re: Painkiller / Live in Nagoya
by Zachary Steiner 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

This seems like a common problem at Tzadik as of late. They are approaching Columbia and their box set punctuality. Is it a difficulty with the distributor? It would seem that way if DMG always can get the CDs before everyone else. Am I way off base on this? Zach

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by Craig Rath 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

At 01:50 PM 12/1/2002 +0100, you wrote: >m> - the direct consequence of your stance is that every piece of >m> software I write becomes public domain as soon as a make it >m> available in a copiable form. > >I didn't say such thing even once. And I don't think it is right. So you think copying CDs is acceptable, but copying software isn't? I'm a bit confused about your position here. Craig M. Rath H: fripp(a)attbi.com W: rathc(a)questarweb.com

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by john schuller 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

>From: CuneiWay(a)aol.com >First of all, I wasn't talking about taking one song and giving it to a >specific person/friend who you thought might enjoy it and enventually >purchase it. I was talking about copying an album that one has no intention >of buying. Or uploading a complete album to a ftp site so it is available >to >anyone who wants to take it. This is what I think most people are >discussing. If one has no intention of buying a particular album how does making a copy of that record take any money out of your labels/artists pockeet? If they were never going to buy it anyway, their money would have never existed for you. I feel good when someone copies my records. They probably would never have gone and bought my record in the first place because they did not want to drop the $10-13 dollars for it, or maybe did not have the money. Maybe they wanted to buy someone else's record instead. I still want them to enjoy my record regardless. I don't think it should be up to my listening audience to support me financially at all. I will still make records even if I don't sell another copy of any other release. I make them because I feel the need to make records that I want to hear, that do not exist right now. If someone wants to give me money, fine. If they don't, fine. I don't ever want to feel like an employee. John Schuller _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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Comments on CD Burning/Unauthorized Duplication etc.
by Pierre Toussaint 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

I still think that copying cd's, better so only excerpts, are a good way to give exposure to bands that would not have any. The only people who listen to college radio or public radio where the music we listen to are often already open minded (at least here in Quebec). CD's in Europe are overpriced (often double than prices around here) and difficult to find in Africa. So, if we only discuss about availability of CD's, it is understandable that people copy cd's. Most independant releases sell around here for less than 15$ (if you know where to shop) while major label releases (after the low prices of new releases) round around 19 to 25$. Is it good or bad to copy? We each have our opinions. But one thing is for sure, it is understanble. Blame the people (or the market) that set the prices. About the question of stealing. If we define steeling by taking something from someone who cannot use it anymore, than copying is not stealing. It is illegal though. But I also cross the street when the light is red... It is stealing if I copy a, for example, Zorn cd and say I'm the one who wrote it and play the saxophone and sell it saying so. What about sampling? If the references are indicated, I see no problem. In books, we never critizise anyone who includes a citation when the reference is clearly indicated. Why should it be different with music? Yes, sampling can, in art, replace all original material (Beastie Boys Paul's Boutique, Amon Tobin, etc.). It might be different with scolary books. I would never accept reading a collage of citations and consider it intelligent work. But as for music, why not? References are normal in art. It would be impossible to maintain the idea that music, any music, is 100% original. Do we still consider this stealing?

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Copying Music etc.
by Fritz Feger 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

>the next time I go to Laos, I'm going to burn about 100 copies of Molam >Dub by Jah Wobble and give them away for free. I don't care if he likes it >or not. He owes something to that culture for that recording. Yes, this is also a very good example of where other aspects outweight the whole question of how the artist, or if you will the owner of intellectual property, can make a living or is adequately paid for providing the world with his work. Fritz (Bill, thanks your interesting article on Cambodia! I'll send you my comments) ############################################## Fritz Feger mail(a)fritzfeger.de www.fritzfeger.de Fon: 0177 - 6424 020 Fax: 0721 - 151 435 058 Rüttenscheider Str. 253 Eulenstraße 56 45131 Essen 22765 Hamburg 0201 - 455 4555 040 - 3980 4766 ##############################################

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Re: why isn't it stealing?
by CuneiWay＠aol.com 01 Dec '02

01 Dec '02

Joseph, > ....I certainly see Steve's point below. But purely for the sake of >argument, let me present a hypothetical situation. Cuneiform currently >has >over 170 releases in it's catalog. Let's say two imaginary music fans w/ >below average income wanted to have at their disposal the entire Cuneiform >catalog. They enter into a agreement where each will buy half the catalog >and copy their half for the other person. Certainly the easiest and most >correct way to look at this is that you've been screwed out of the profits >from a complete run of yr complete in print discography by two people who >are a dangerous combination, obsessive and (extremely) cheap. But in the >process one copy of every Cuneiform in print release was purchased. Do your REALLY think that this is how it works? Or do you just want to play "what ifs" and "consider THIS scenerio" games? If you really think that this is how it works, you are being extremely self-delusional. Steve Cuneiform

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