Interesting topic. I have an old color filter card - I don't remember who used to make them. There are about eight different colors of "gels" and the optical quality seems OK. I believe that the gross detail has been easier for me to spot on occasion, but my experience with the fine detail has been like Brent's - the filters seem to degrade things. However, I would like to experiment more. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Watson [mailto:brentjwatson@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:34 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Brent's view My issue with filters is not the color change. My issue is that they degrade the image. When I look at the planets, I am trying to see as much detail as possible. My experience is that the filters do not allow me to do this. I know others see an improvement, but I do not. In fact, the image contains less detail. What is there after the filter does its dirty work may or may not be more apparent. Your mileage can, and does, vary. (I wear brown tinted glasses when I wear dark glasses. They cut the blue light more than the red, and hence do not deplete the rhodopsin as much. Brent --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hey, Brent, when you fly or drive, do you wear sunglasses? Are they tinted yellow, green, or neutral?
;)
Chuck
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Color filters NEVER improve the overall view- if you expect this, you will always be disappointed. What they do is improve CONTRAST between details of similar value and tone. They improve visibility of certain details only, often to the detriment of most of the other detail. In other words, filters enhance specific features of specific color- everything else in view will actually suffer. You sometimes have to "build-up" the detail data using several filters independantly...they are not like the color-controls on your TV set...the idea isn't to get a better overall picture. I think the anti-filter people are seeing the overall degredation and leaving it at that...is it an aesthetic issue, people? Personally, I've teased-out details, using filters, that were utterly invisible without the filter, too many times for it to be imagined. And yes, there may be times when you can't tease-out the finer detail, but that may mean that you just don't have the right filter, or the seeing itself may be rendering the detail invisible. Chuck --- Kim Hyatt <khyatt@smithlayton.com> wrote:
Interesting topic. I have an old color filter card - I don't remember who used to make them. There are about eight different colors of "gels" and the optical quality seems OK. I believe that the gross detail has been easier for me to spot on occasion, but my experience with the fine detail has been like Brent's - the filters seem to degrade things. However, I would like to experiment more.
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Yep, as I said, your mileage varies. I have never had the talent to overall "improve" the view. So I leave filters to those who can. Brent --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
Color filters NEVER improve the overall view- if you expect this, you will always be disappointed.
What they do is improve CONTRAST between details of similar value and tone.
They improve visibility of certain details only, often to the detriment of most of the other detail. In other words, filters enhance specific features of specific color- everything else in view will actually suffer. You sometimes have to "build-up" the detail data using several filters independantly...they are not like the color-controls on your TV set...the idea isn't to get a better overall picture.
I think the anti-filter people are seeing the overall degredation and leaving it at that...is it an aesthetic issue, people?
Personally, I've teased-out details, using filters, that were utterly invisible without the filter, too many times for it to be imagined.
And yes, there may be times when you can't tease-out the finer detail, but that may mean that you just don't have the right filter, or the seeing itself may be rendering the detail invisible.
Chuck
Interesting topic. I have an old color filter card
--- Kim Hyatt <khyatt@smithlayton.com> wrote: -
I don't remember who used to make them. There are about eight different colors of "gels" and the optical quality seems OK. I believe that the gross detail has been easier for me to spot on occasion, but my experience with the fine detail has been like Brent's - the filters seem to degrade things. However, I would like to experiment more.
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Perhaps better said, I have never been able to see enough more to justify the use of the filter. So far, I have seen without a filter anything someone claims to be seeing with a filter. Add to that the increased fine detail in the image, and you have the reason I do not use filters. Brent --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
Color filters NEVER improve the overall view- if you expect this, you will always be disappointed.
What they do is improve CONTRAST between details of similar value and tone.
They improve visibility of certain details only, often to the detriment of most of the other detail. In other words, filters enhance specific features of specific color- everything else in view will actually suffer. You sometimes have to "build-up" the detail data using several filters independantly...they are not like the color-controls on your TV set...the idea isn't to get a better overall picture.
I think the anti-filter people are seeing the overall degredation and leaving it at that...is it an aesthetic issue, people?
Personally, I've teased-out details, using filters, that were utterly invisible without the filter, too many times for it to be imagined.
And yes, there may be times when you can't tease-out the finer detail, but that may mean that you just don't have the right filter, or the seeing itself may be rendering the detail invisible.
Chuck
Interesting topic. I have an old color filter card
--- Kim Hyatt <khyatt@smithlayton.com> wrote: -
I don't remember who used to make them. There are about eight different colors of "gels" and the optical quality seems OK. I believe that the gross detail has been easier for me to spot on occasion, but my experience with the fine detail has been like Brent's - the filters seem to degrade things. However, I would like to experiment more.
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--- Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Perhaps better said, I have never been able to see enough more to justify the use of the filter. So far, I have seen without a filter anything someone claims to be seeing with a filter. Add to that the increased fine detail in the image, and you have the reason I do not use filters.
We should observe together, not that I don't believe you, but who were the other observers? I need to put you to the test using the only standard I have- myself! Having a set of filters gives you options. You don't have to use them all the time! But for that one time in fifteen or twenty when you think it would help, I prefer having that option. Brent, I know you understand the science behind this, so I worry that perhaps you have a color perception problem that has gone undiagnosed... ;) C. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Chuck, I agree, we should observe together. It would be good for me to see the advantages you see. The other observers are the folks here that you know. As for a color perception problem, the FAA is somewhat rigorous in their color perception tests. I have no problem passing any of them. I also have a series of color tests that you can bring up on your computer. If you'd like a copy of them let me know and I'll forward them to you. These old eyes of mine are seeing less color with fainter objects, though. Brent --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Perhaps better said, I have never been able to see enough more to justify the use of the filter. So far, I have seen without a filter anything someone claims to be seeing with a filter. Add to that the increased fine detail in the image, and you have the reason I do not use filters.
We should observe together, not that I don't believe you, but who were the other observers? I need to put you to the test using the only standard I have- myself!
Having a set of filters gives you options. You don't have to use them all the time! But for that one time in fifteen or twenty when you think it would help, I prefer having that option.
Brent, I know you understand the science behind this, so I worry that perhaps you have a color perception problem that has gone undiagnosed... ;)
C.
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Hi Brent: Today is one of those days when I long for the simplicity of the pre-digital age...I have spent 1/2 an hour on a reply which disappeared when I hit "send". So, assuming this one gets through, here's the condensed version. (I can hear the cheers...) You are one of the few people I know who have been at this game longer than I, in addition to being one of my early mentors, so I owe you the benefit of the doubt. Guys like you and Bruce are my astronomy "professors". It could be that your eye, brain, or both, are capable of discerning low-contrast details without a filter...after all, all the color "data" is present in the white-light view. If this is so, you are an extremely fortunate individual...and perhaps it's learned behavior- can be picked-up by anyone who devotes the time to training their eye, honing their observational skills. If you are up for it, we should look into this. I'll bet that it's been 20 years, at least, since we've observed together. I'd like to do it again this year-lets get together when I'm between contracts at work. If enough people are interested, we could do this as a "filter seminar", (pros, cons), including LPR, neutral density, polarizing, etc. Chuck --- Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chuck,
I agree, we should observe together. It would be good for me to see the advantages you see. The other observers are the folks here that you know.
As for a color perception problem, the FAA is somewhat rigorous in their color perception tests. I have no problem passing any of them. I also have a series of color tests that you can bring up on your computer. If you'd like a copy of them let me know and I'll forward them to you. These old eyes of mine are seeing less color with fainter objects, though.
Brent
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Chuck - Lets do it! I look forward to a "Filter Seminar. What times are good for you? (When will you be between contracts?) Brent --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Brent:
Today is one of those days when I long for the simplicity of the pre-digital age...I have spent 1/2 an hour on a reply which disappeared when I hit "send". So, assuming this one gets through, here's the condensed version. (I can hear the cheers...)
You are one of the few people I know who have been at this game longer than I, in addition to being one of my early mentors, so I owe you the benefit of the doubt. Guys like you and Bruce are my astronomy "professors".
It could be that your eye, brain, or both, are capable of discerning low-contrast details without a filter...after all, all the color "data" is present in the white-light view. If this is so, you are an extremely fortunate individual...and perhaps it's learned behavior- can be picked-up by anyone who devotes the time to training their eye, honing their observational skills. If you are up for it, we should look into this.
I'll bet that it's been 20 years, at least, since we've observed together. I'd like to do it again this year-lets get together when I'm between contracts at work.
If enough people are interested, we could do this as a "filter seminar", (pros, cons), including LPR, neutral density, polarizing, etc.
Chuck
--- Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chuck,
I agree, we should observe together. It would be good for me to see the advantages you see. The other observers are the folks here that you know.
As for a color perception problem, the FAA is somewhat rigorous in their color perception tests. I have no problem passing any of them. I also have a series of color tests that you can bring up on your computer. If you'd like a copy of them let me know and I'll forward them to you. These old eyes of mine are seeing less color with fainter objects, though.
Brent
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Brent, et al: It looks like we've struck a popular chord! Now, the bad news: I just started the biggest contract we've had since 1996. Unfortunatley this means that I'm working 6 & 7 day work weeks, up to 12 hours a day. This will continue for at least 6 to 8 weeks. My department is still woefully understaffed and I will be doing much of the work personally. I will have absolutely no free evenings for 2 months. Another big job is scheduled immediately after that, which will last at least another 2 months. I am going to try and take a few days off between these jobs, but it's way too early to tell if it will be possible. Worst case, I can't play until June. Best case, maybe mid-April. There is simply no alternative. So, I advise going ahead without me if you want to do this sometime soon. If it can wait 2 to 4 months, count me in!! I have the full set of 12 Orion color filters to contribute, as well as broadband LPR, narrowband LPR, and ND. If you do it soon, please post your results so I can read them!! Frustrated, but just glad to have a job, Chuck --- Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chuck - Lets do it! I look forward to a "Filter Seminar. What times are good for you? (When will you be between contracts?)
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Bad-to-worse: One of my decimated staff of 4 was ordered off-work indefinitely due to kidneystones! I may as well just move-in here :( C. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Count me in! Rich --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Brent:
Today is one of those days when I long for the simplicity of the pre-digital age...I have spent 1/2 an hour on a reply which disappeared when I hit "send". So, assuming this one gets through, here's the condensed version. (I can hear the cheers...)
You are one of the few people I know who have been at this game longer than I, in addition to being one of my early mentors, so I owe you the benefit of the doubt. Guys like you and Bruce are my astronomy "professors".
It could be that your eye, brain, or both, are capable of discerning low-contrast details without a filter...after all, all the color "data" is present in the white-light view. If this is so, you are an extremely fortunate individual...and perhaps it's learned behavior- can be picked-up by anyone who devotes the time to training their eye, honing their observational skills. If you are up for it, we should look into this.
I'll bet that it's been 20 years, at least, since we've observed together. I'd like to do it again this year-lets get together when I'm between contracts at work.
If enough people are interested, we could do this as a "filter seminar", (pros, cons), including LPR, neutral density, polarizing, etc.
Chuck
--- Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chuck,
I agree, we should observe together. It would be good for me to see the advantages you see. The other observers are the folks here that you know.
As for a color perception problem, the FAA is somewhat rigorous in their color perception tests. I have no problem passing any of them. I also have a series of color tests that you can bring up on your computer. If you'd like a copy of them let me know and I'll forward them to you. These old eyes of mine are seeing less color with fainter objects, though.
Brent
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participants (5)
-
Brent Watson -
Chuck Hards -
David L Bennett -
Kim Hyatt -
Richard Tenney