Re: [Utah-astronomy] Stellar color perceptions
Lets also not forget the color correction of various lenses. With my f5, I am hesitant to describe lilac or bluish tint, filters help but there is a big difference compared to apcohromatic refractors. I know what you will say, get a reflector or cassegrain. Seeing airy disks is very pleasurable and makes the acohromat very worhtwhile Brightness also is factor, ie the brighter the object the more purple halo you have. An apodizing mask is also helpful. I think Kirk is correct that society in general has gotten color illiterate. I have found some pretty profound differences in the way Webb, Smyth, and Haas describe the colors this indicates to me that perception does vary among very experienced observers. I do find myself agreeing with Smyth and Webb more than Haas. Perhaps as Chuck said the difference between male and female. Erik --- kimharch@cut.net wrote: From: "Kim" <kimharch@cut.net> To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Stellar color perceptions Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:02:00 -0700 Chuck et. al.:
From my first days of serious telescopic observing I've been interested in stellar colors and the descriptions of them given by early observers, such as those cited previously. (My favorite description is "pale lilac" but I don't recall the observer who coined that color for a binary companion star.) Color theory, as you know, is very different for direct light sources than for reflected (pigmented) color sources. Theatrical lighting, for example, requires a different skill and color understanding than the traditional skills taught in art (and in my case, architecture) schools. I learned a lot about color descriptions from stamp collecting, and I'm still looking for a star colored "carmine" or "vermillion". I think, though, that I've seen "periwinkle" and "indigo".
I've concluded that color descriptions by others are very subjective and unreliable. The main thing is to trust your own observations - and enjoy. Interesting thread. Thanks. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] A snack in Gemini before bedtime I don't think the "color illiteracy" theory holds in my case, at least. I trained as an artist for years in school and made my living at it for a few years. My descriptive color pallate is easily up to the task. As I alluded, I'm pretty sure the differences I see personally are due to biology. At my place of employment, color is very important to our customers. They specify certain colors as key to their branding and use calibrated Pantone numbers to help their vendors get it right. Even then, some of us see their supplied samples as a match to different shades in the Pantone book- not always the specific color they say it is. Color perception as a function of biology is clearly at work here- and even when one discounts the obvious, textbook examples of "colorblindness". I also think that some of the differences may be due to those 19th-century observers using refractors that were optimized for different wavelengths than modern refractors. Too, in my observing heyday I used reflectors exclusively. There is also the possibility that atmospheric composition (from man-made pollutants) is absorbing certain wavelengths in a subtle way that is different from 100+ years ago. Tough call. Color, tint... it's such a fleetingly subtle thing with astronomical targets, to begin with. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
I wonder if Rob on Maui would see different color if he viewed the same object from Utah. No! Wait..let me change that. I wonder if I would see the same object in a different color if I were on Haleakala. I was there once in the early 60s. a bunch of kids and I Coasted down hill 35 miles as I recall. When I made up my list of doubles by constellation I used Burnham’s Celestial Handbook and I included things like K5 and F3. I keep finding as everyone has mentioned so many variations as to what other people record. I think I will go back and dump all that for papaya orange, plumaria yellow and pikaki white, or just record color as I see it…Yeah papaya orange! But now living in Utah I will have to go with salt white, sage purple, and Utah Lake brown. *:-) jg
Hi Jim come on out and try your idea. I wonder if one can perceive the same color and remember it and then is your 'red' the same 'red' as a different person?? my brick colored wall in my dining area is considered orange by my wife and pink-ish by my sons and the adobe hallway as red by the wife and sons. anyone consider the ' age' factor either?? I was up a couple weeks back and one of our guys brought his 9 year old son who spotted M33 easily, we needed an 80mm scope to scoop it up. BTW it has been showering for the last 12 days and it looks like a monsoon weekend too we need the rain though, we've had dry winters for the last 3 years Aloha and Happy New Year Rob
Hi all, I've just processed an image I took the morning of Oct. 28 at the Wedge -- M3. It's a series of separate shots of LRGB, put together into a mosaic, but I haven't added up all the times yet. Still learning. Also, I read tonight that the central star in NGC2438, the little blue one to the lower right of the bright star showing through the middle of the planetary in my view, is darn dim. Sources I came upon estimate it at mag 17.5 and 17.7! Here's the link to my astrophoto page: http://cid-9fa170f11315b55f.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Joe%20Bauman%7C4s%... -- Kind wishes, Joe
Joe, Nice work. I like the detail you achieved in many of your shots. The mottling in M31 is nice. Great job on M42 also. If you will allow me to teas you a bit, you shouldn’t have laid the camera behind the campaign glass when you took NGC 2438…hehe. No seriously good color and detail even down to 17.5…nice. Jim Gibson
We have the empty carcass of a 13.1 inch blue Coulter dob, if anyone would like it. No optics, no focuser, just the empty tube and rocker box. It does have the mirror cell, but no primary mirror, and it does have the support for the secondary, but no secondary mirror. Free, you just have to pick it up. Located East side SLC.
This would be great for a potted plant, or a high-school production of Pirates of Penzance. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote:
We have the empty carcass of a 13.1 inch blue Coulter dob, if anyone would like it. No optics, no focuser, just the empty tube and rocker box. It does have the mirror cell, but no primary mirror, and it does have the support for the secondary, but no secondary mirror. Free, you just have to pick it up. Located East side SLC.
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I understand the "how to make a mirror" video that we were not able to screen at the solstice party last month is going to be shown at this month's SLAS meeting. Perhaps after watching that several people will want the carcass to use with their new homemade mirror. Grins, patrick On 06 Jan 2009, at 09:48, Josephine Grahn wrote:
We have the empty carcass of a 13.1 inch blue Coulter dob, if anyone would like it. No optics, no focuser, just the empty tube and rocker box. It does have the mirror cell, but no primary mirror, and it does have the support for the secondary, but no secondary mirror. Free, you just have to pick it up. Located East side SLC.
Dear brothers and sisters of the amateur astronomy tribe -- I'm going to run an astroblog on the Deseret News web page starting on Monday. Sheena's project for the Trib is so fine that we figured, wow, let's do it too. As the former science writer for the Deseret News, now retired, and an insanely avid amateur astronomer, I was asked to do the job. I'm definitely not saying don't talk to Sheena; in fact, I think the more interest in astronomy, the better. But I am asking if anyone would like to comment on the blog itself, or send me ideas or tips, please do! Thanks, Joe Bauman
Aloha anyone have any experience removing the tube from the mirror cell of a large (16") Meade SCT?? the boys at the IfA are trying to fix the focus on their Meade 16" it was sent to get fixed, damaged when returned (there's a message there) and another return and many months all over again just doesn't seem correct, so we'd like to do it in house Aloha and thanks Rob
Hi Rob, I belong to the LX200GPS (Meade) discussion group. They have all sorts of expertise, plus detailed diagrams, relating to repairs. If you want to look up the group and join, I'll bet somebody would have answers to any question. "Dr. Clay" is a true expert on the Meade blue beast, and always replies promptly and great advice. Best wishes, Joe --- On Tue, 1/13/09, Rob Ratkowski Photography <ratkwski@hawaii.rr.com> wrote: From: Rob Ratkowski Photography <ratkwski@hawaii.rr.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Meade SCT Help To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 4:47 PM Aloha anyone have any experience removing the tube from the mirror cell of a large (16") Meade SCT?? the boys at the IfA are trying to fix the focus on their Meade 16" it was sent to get fixed, damaged when returned (there's a message there) and another return and many months all over again just doesn't seem correct, so we'd like to do it in house Aloha and thanks Rob _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Thanks Joe I'll pass this info to the guys at the IfA , it would help them the most Aloha Rob
I can see it now: Dueling Blogs! But seriously, we can never have to much coverage of science so I look forward to reading both blogs. Clear skies! patrick On 13 Jan 2009, at 16:36, Joe Bauman wrote:
Dear brothers and sisters of the amateur astronomy tribe -- I'm going to run an astroblog on the Deseret News web page starting on Monday. Sheena's project for the Trib is so fine that we figured, wow, let's do it too. As the former science writer for the Deseret News, now retired, and an insanely avid amateur astronomer, I was asked to do the job.
I'm definitely not saying don't talk to Sheena; in fact, I think the more interest in astronomy, the better. But I am asking if anyone would like to comment on the blog itself, or send me ideas or tips, please do!
Or maybe it's like dueling banjos and I'm the idiot kid .... jb --- On Tue, 1/13/09, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote: From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] NEW BLOG To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 9:39 PM Remember Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King? LOL! On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com>wrote:
I can see it now: Dueling Blogs!
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Naw, it's a big universe. Plenty for both of you to write about. And besides, she's got decades of writing to do, to catch-up with you. You're still king of the hill, Joe. I knew you couldn't stay completely retired. Lotta tread left on those tires! On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
Or maybe it's like dueling banjos and I'm the idiot kid .... jb
Don't spectra tell us exactly what colors stars are? Just wondering. -- Joe --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Jim Gibson <jimgibson00@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Jim Gibson <jimgibson00@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Stellar color perceptions To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 11:50 AM I wonder if Rob on Maui would see different color if he viewed the same object from Utah. No! Wait..let me change that. I wonder if I would see the same object in a different color if I were on Haleakala. I was there once in the early 60s. a bunch of kids and I Coasted down hill 35 miles as I recall. When I made up my list of doubles by constellation I used Burnham’s Celestial Handbook and I included things like K5 and F3. I keep finding as everyone has mentioned so many variations as to what other people record. I think I will go back and dump all that for papaya orange, plumaria yellow and pikaki white, or just record color as I see it…Yeah papaya orange! But now living in Utah I will have to go with salt white, sage purple, and Utah Lake brown. *:-) jg _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
In a sense, but spectra don't really translate directly into "color". Spectra tell us at what wavelength objects are emitting energy, wheras color is a perceptive, subjective quality that has no real absolutes. We see "white", having a neutral tint, at a particular temperature and mix of other colors, mostly because we evolved under a "yellow" sun. There is no doubt that beings who evolved under a sun with a different temperature would have a very different interpretation of neutral "white", to our eyes. Some individuals have more than three types of color receptors in their eyes (cones). They see different colors than we do, under the exact same illumination. So, Joe, the interpretation of "color" is a strictly human phenomenon. When an observer is telling us the color of a star, it's the color they perceive, and not the actual color of the star. On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Don't spectra tell us exactly what colors stars are? Just wondering. -- Joe
That's interesting, I didn't know that about the cones. I wonder if worldwide air pollution is changing what we see too. -- Joe --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote: From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Stellar color perceptions To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 12:17 PM In a sense, but spectra don't really translate directly into "color". Spectra tell us at what wavelength objects are emitting energy, wheras color is a perceptive, subjective quality that has no real absolutes. We see "white", having a neutral tint, at a particular temperature and mix of other colors, mostly because we evolved under a "yellow" sun. There is no doubt that beings who evolved under a sun with a different temperature would have a very different interpretation of neutral "white", to our eyes. Some individuals have more than three types of color receptors in their eyes (cones). They see different colors than we do, under the exact same illumination. So, Joe, the interpretation of "color" is a strictly human phenomenon. When an observer is telling us the color of a star, it's the color they perceive, and not the actual color of the star. On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Don't spectra tell us exactly what colors stars are? Just wondering. -- Joe
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The cone phenomenon is rare; I read about a woman in England some years ago who had the condition. She would often laugh at other women who wore outfits that, to her, obviously didn't match, color-wise. lol! I've noticed that the sky near the horizon isn't as blue as it was when I was young, when in locations distant from population centers. More greenish. I have read that this is due to gasses and particulates in the atmosphere, in greater concentrations than decades ago. On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
That's interesting, I didn't know that about the cones. I wonder if worldwide air pollution is changing what we see too. -- Joe
I mentioned that in my reply in the original thread, Erik. Older refractors were corrected for different lines. On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 10:24 AM, <zaurak@digis.net> wrote:
Lets also not forget the color correction of various lenses. With my f5, I am hesitant to describe lilac or bluish tint, filters help but there is a big difference compared to apcohromatic refractors. I know what you will say, get a reflector or cassegrain. Seeing airy disks is very pleasurable and makes the acohromat very worhtwhile Brightness also is factor, ie the brighter the object the more purple halo you have. An apodizing mask is also helpful.
I think Kirk is correct that society in general has gotten color illiterate. I have found some pretty profound differences in the way Webb, Smyth, and Haas describe the colors this indicates to me that perception does vary among very experienced observers. I do find myself agreeing with Smyth and Webb more than Haas. Perhaps as Chuck said the difference between male and female.
Erik
Here's an article that talks about color perception being influenced more by the brain than the retina, interesting stuff: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051026082313.htm
participants (7)
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Chuck Hards -
Jim Gibson -
Joe Bauman -
Josephine Grahn -
Patrick Wiggins -
Rob Ratkowski Photography -
zaurak＠digis.net