Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree. "The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah. Deloy
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe ________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree. "The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah. Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
I don't want to get political either but I would agree with Joe on this and I would like to see The Wedge get officially protected as well. On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:27 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
-- Jay Eads
I want the entire San Rafael area protected, but I lost the fight just for the Reef part long ago. Thanks, Jay -- Joe ________________________________ From: Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update I don't want to get political either but I would agree with Joe on this and I would like to see The Wedge get officially protected as well. On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:27 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
-- Jay Eads _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan. ________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe ________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan. ________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Joe, I initially thought the same thing but then I realized my mistake...5,000 ft above the ground altitude, not sea level. Dave "The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas." On Dec 06, 2011, at 02:14 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote: I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe ________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan. ________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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I was looking down on Cataract Canyon in the Maze District, to our surprize 2 F-16's came flying up the canyon, yes I looked down at 2 F-16's.
Joe,
I initially thought the same thing but then I realized my mistake...5,000 ft above the ground altitude, not sea level.
Dave
"The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas."
On Dec 06, 2011, at 02:14 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected.
So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state.
I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation.
Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border.
I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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On 12/7/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
I was looking down on Cataract Canyon in the Maze District, to our surprize 2 F-16's came flying up the canyon, yes I looked down at 2 F-16's.
Probably on their way to Beggar's Canyon in search of Womp Rats.
I guess once you are below radar anything goes.
On 12/7/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
I was looking down on Cataract Canyon in the Maze District, to our surprize 2 F-16's came flying up the canyon, yes I looked down at 2 F-16's.
Probably on their way to Beggar's Canyon in search of Womp Rats.
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Joe, I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me. ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe ________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan. ________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Sorry, Brent, I misunderstood. I thought it was just about aerial tours. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update Joe, I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me. ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe ________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan. ________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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"Why can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King We all want essentially the same thing. Alas, there are many details that affect each of our personal agendas, and affect our conclusions. In the end though, we truly do long for the same thing. For me, even if I never get the opportunity to travel to such locations, just knowing that they are there, and others may enjoy them, is sufficient. By the same token, I am keen to hear the voices of those who oppose my view, and actually consider their point of view, thinking hard about their personal argument, putting myself in their place. Not a popular attitude in the current political environment of the USA. The late Barry Goldwater was a Republican, yet he knew that compromise was key to making government work. Would that more modern American politicians (and their constituents) paid heed to Goldwater's attitude.
Chuck, I seem to remember that we were warned that three events would occur if we voted for Goldwater: 1) We would bomb Hanoi. 2) We would have rioting in the streets of the USA. 3) We would have inflation. Well, I thought he made the most sense (besides also being an amateur radio operator), so I voted for him. Sure enough--We bombed Hanoi, we had rioting in the streets, and we did experience inflation. Go figure. 73, lh On 12/6/2011 7:19 PM, Chuck Hards wrote:
"Why can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King
We all want essentially the same thing. Alas, there are many details that affect each of our personal agendas, and affect our conclusions. In the end though, we truly do long for the same thing.
For me, even if I never get the opportunity to travel to such locations, just knowing that they are there, and others may enjoy them, is sufficient.
By the same token, I am keen to hear the voices of those who oppose my view, and actually consider their point of view, thinking hard about their personal argument, putting myself in their place.
Not a popular attitude in the current political environment of the USA.
The late Barry Goldwater was a Republican, yet he knew that compromise was key to making government work. Would that more modern American politicians (and their constituents) paid heed to Goldwater's attitude.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
So we got Nixon, and riots in Detroit, bombing of Hanoi and inflation.
Chuck, I seem to remember that we were warned that three events would
occur if we voted for Goldwater: 1) We would bomb Hanoi. 2) We would have rioting in the streets of the USA. 3) We would have inflation. Well, I thought he made the most sense (besides also being an amateur radio operator), so I voted for him. Sure enough--We bombed Hanoi, we had rioting in the streets, and we did experience inflation. Go figure. 73, lh
On 12/6/2011 7:19 PM, Chuck Hards wrote:
"Why can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King
We all want essentially the same thing. Alas, there are many details that affect each of our personal agendas, and affect our conclusions. In the end though, we truly do long for the same thing.
For me, even if I never get the opportunity to travel to such locations, just knowing that they are there, and others may enjoy them, is sufficient.
By the same token, I am keen to hear the voices of those who oppose my view, and actually consider their point of view, thinking hard about their personal argument, putting myself in their place.
Not a popular attitude in the current political environment of the USA.
The late Barry Goldwater was a Republican, yet he knew that compromise was key to making government work. Would that more modern American politicians (and their constituents) paid heed to Goldwater's attitude.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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No, Erik. You missed the point, as well as the president. We got Lyndon Johnson, who did exactly what was prophesied would happen if we elected Goldwater. Get it? 73, lh On 12/7/2011 10:37 AM, erikhansen@thebluezone.net wrote:
So we got Nixon, and riots in Detroit, bombing of Hanoi and inflation.
Chuck, I seem to remember that we were warned that three events would
occur if we voted for Goldwater: 1) We would bomb Hanoi. 2) We would have rioting in the streets of the USA. 3) We would have inflation. Well, I thought he made the most sense (besides also being an amateur radio operator), so I voted for him. Sure enough--We bombed Hanoi, we had rioting in the streets, and we did experience inflation. Go figure. 73, lh
On 12/6/2011 7:19 PM, Chuck Hards wrote:
"Why can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King
We all want essentially the same thing. Alas, there are many details that affect each of our personal agendas, and affect our conclusions. In the end though, we truly do long for the same thing.
For me, even if I never get the opportunity to travel to such locations, just knowing that they are there, and others may enjoy them, is sufficient.
By the same token, I am keen to hear the voices of those who oppose my view, and actually consider their point of view, thinking hard about their personal argument, putting myself in their place.
Not a popular attitude in the current political environment of the USA.
The late Barry Goldwater was a Republican, yet he knew that compromise was key to making government work. Would that more modern American politicians (and their constituents) paid heed to Goldwater's attitude.
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"The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument."
Are you unable to walk? Joe,
I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Seems like the area in question (the Alton mine) will be closed to public access if this is approved, regardless of whether you're walking or riding an atv
For long distances, yes - I am unable. Something to do with the number of times I have seen the earth revolve combined with a sedentary career. ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
"The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument."
Are you unable to walk? Joe,
I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Now that sounds politically correct lol, or just "something speak." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Watson" <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:38:12 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update For long distances, yes - I am unable. Something to do with the number of times I have seen the earth revolve combined with a sedentary career. ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
"The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument."
Are you unable to walk? Joe,
I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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OK Joan, I am too old and too fat to walk more than a few miles. Better :)? ________________________________ From: "jcarman6@q.com" <jcarman6@q.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update Now that sounds politically correct lol, or just "something speak." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Watson" <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:38:12 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update For long distances, yes - I am unable. Something to do with the number of times I have seen the earth revolve combined with a sedentary career. ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
"The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument."
Are you unable to walk? Joe,
I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
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No, it's not better lol. I liked the "something speak" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Watson" <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:57:04 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update OK Joan, I am too old and too fat to walk more than a few miles. Better :)? ________________________________ From: "jcarman6@q.com" <jcarman6@q.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update Now that sounds politically correct lol, or just "something speak." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Watson" <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:38:12 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update For long distances, yes - I am unable. Something to do with the number of times I have seen the earth revolve combined with a sedentary career. ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
"The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument."
Are you unable to walk? Joe,
I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
I guess the point here is that all National Parks have limited access. I am restricted to view points and paved trails, I do not feel trails should be ADA compliant for my personal access.
The reality here is that the Federal Government owns most of the land in Utah. I trust Fed stewardship much more than state. Mining leads to boom and bust, and many experts disagree that Utahs' future is best served by mining. Just driving casually through Kanab it seems without the BLM or the Forest Service times would be much harder. It's location is more of through fare than a destination. No, it's not better lol. I liked the "something speak"
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Watson" <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:57:04 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
OK Joan, I am too old and too fat to walk more than a few miles. Better :)?
________________________________ From: "jcarman6@q.com" <jcarman6@q.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
Now that sounds politically correct lol, or just "something speak."
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Watson" <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:38:12 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re:Â Alton mine update
For long distances, yes - I am unable. Something to do with the number of times I have seen the earth revolve combined with a sedentary career.
________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
"The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument."
Are you unable to walk?
Joe,
I expected this answer.  The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah.  I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example.  The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business.  Getting through the corridor was.  The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument.  No, I am not talking about ruining the land.  There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ Â From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re:Â Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001.  The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected.  So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state.  I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation.  Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border.  I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
 I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ Â From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia)   I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Well, I guess the question is what gives you the right to fly where ever you want? It seems big areas of Utah are restricted air space.
Joe,
I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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Erik, A careful reading of the FARs would answer your question. Much of the airspace in Utah is restricted, although not as much as one may think. Even that can be traversed by talking to the controlling authority. I have done it many times. I believe this conversation is quickly becoming one that should be carried on off list. Please contact me at my email address if you wish to continue. Brent ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
Well, I guess the question is what gives you the right to fly where ever you want? It seems big areas of Utah are restricted air space.
Joe,
I expected this answer. The point is not the ability to give aerial tours, the point is that it closed the corridor for all destinations south of much of central Utah. I would not have been able to transit the area to go to Shiprock, NM for example. The tours, although nice at times, really never were a part of my business. Getting through the corridor was. The designation also severely limited ground access to many of the more remote areas of the monument. No, I am not talking about ruining the land. There are places I would enjoy seeing that are now essentially not available to me.
________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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As I recall, those regulations came about because of the abuse happening in the Grand Canyon along with a few mid-air collisions.
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation
said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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The Gand Canyon situation resulted in a Special Use Airspace rules change. There is a restricted area over the Grand Canyon because of the abuse. Part 136 is much newer than that. ________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - Re: Alton mine update
As I recall, those regulations came about because of the abuse happening in the Grand Canyon along with a few mid-air collisions.
I don't understand why you had to fly at 15,000 feet if the regulation
said 5,000. But to your main point: don't you understand the value of enjoying the peace and quiet of a natural area without a tourist plane buzzing close overhead? Not to be insensitive to you, but the dollars you would make from these flights aren't worth the irritation that possibly thousands of other people would feel when visiting the park, many of whom come from the other side of the country. We need see things from a national perspective sometimes, as Americans who treasure our natural wonders. Best wishes, Joe
________________________________ From: Brent Watson <brentjwatson@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I started a part 135 air taxi business in 2001. The intent was to use my aircraft to both transport folks to the recretion areas in Utah and surrounding states, and to offer scenic tours of our national parks. I flew a Cessna 182, a single engine non-pressurized, 4 seat aircraft. About 2002, the FAA put forth a new regulation, part 136. This regulation concerned only commercial aircraft like my airplane. The regulation only allowed certain companies to offer scenic tours over national parks. To qualify you needed to apply for a license to offer these tours. I applied and was rejected. So what you say? The regulation mandated a nimimum 5,000 foot above ground level altitude over national parks, monuments, recreation areas, and tribal grounds. Essentially it required me to fly at a minimum of 15,000 feet to go over any of these areas. Non pressurized aircraft must have an oxygen system for passengers and pilot at this altitude. Pilots must be using the system and it must be offered to passengers. My aircraft is not so equipped. Look at a map and you will see that this regulation effectively prohibited me from flying over a large portion of southern Utah. The Staircase - Escalante national monument is a big blockade that denied me access to this part of our state. I am definitely not in favor of the arbitrary designation of national monuments by a capricious president. Most assuredly I am not in favor of Clinton's sneaky designation of Staircase - Escalante. He did not even have the courage to come to Utah to make his proclamation. Shortly after this the Arizona Strip was also given national monument designation, further closing off the southern border. I am not a fan.
________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Well then I must disagree! With the federal government in control of nearly 60% of the land in Utah, right or wrong I strongly disagree. Nothing I can see gives our federal government this right. We stand very close to having National Parks, Monuments and Recreation areas boarded up and the public will be denied access. Parks are really hurting right now just to maintain the basics and many are in such poor shape that the general public may be at risk just by entering. I hope these closures never happen but it may be interesting to see how some who support what in my opinion is simply a land grab feel when they are turned away at the entrance gate. Alton Coal mines parking lot may be where we set up to observe in the future. Ok, that is "over the top" but you get my point. Steve
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:50:03 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
I agree, hardly a negative for Utah.
I don't want to get political, but I view the creation of the national
monument as a great service to Utah and the country. -- Joe
________________________________ From: D P Pierce <starsbirdsglyphs@gmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Alton mine update
Closer to home the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument was created by presidental decree.
"The Monument was declared in September 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1996>campaign by President Bill Clinton <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton>, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon_National_Park>in Arizona <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona>, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance. This was seen by many as a transparent political ploy to gain votes in the contested state of Arizona. That November, Clinton won Arizona by a margin of 2.2%, and lost Utah to Republican Bob Dole <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dole> by 21.1%" (quote from Wikipedia) I thought at the time Clinton did it to screw Utah because Utah was the only state he had come in 3rd pllace in his first election. I think Kanab High School woke up the next morning to find out half of their football field was in the new national monument. Nobody from Utah was invited to the ceremony. It was especially a slap in the face for former Demcratic senator Frank Moss who had worked diligently to get more national parks in Utah.
Deloy _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
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participants (11)
-
bill biesele -
Brent Watson -
Chuck Hards -
D P Pierce -
David Bennett -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Jay Eads -
jcarman6＠q.com -
Joe Bauman -
Larry Holmes -
Steve Fisher