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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:44:40 -0700 From: "Kim" <kimharch@cut.net> To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon theology Message-ID: <E1PSJwo-0007aE-0k@mx01.mta.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Richard, I think you may have misunderstood some comments regarding your inquiry. Most of us on this list try to be sensitive about other points of view, but there have been those times when opinions are mocked and personalities become the targets of comments instead of scientific debate. Hence my initial question about the purpose of your investigation. Censure is too strong a term. Some of us are just a bit gun shy about potentially loaded questions such as yours. We have entertained many opinions regarding intelligent design, creationism, Big Bang, even steady-state theories. None have been promoted, per se, at least not officially. We just make fun of those who still believe in such nonsense. (BIG smiley face here.)
I wouldn't object to an open forum on this list on religious questions as they relate to astronomy, but the consensus seems to be that the subject is too toxic in Utah's culture. If our moderator chooses to allow it, why not? I'm not afraid, and I don't think most of us are. We just don't want to allow religious discussion to overwhelm intelligent discussions of astronomy, in general, which is after all the purpose of the list.
Kim
Richard wrote:
"I note that my questions concerning Mormon astronomy meet with censure, while the promotion of Intelligent Design does not. Fascinating."
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Thank you, Kim, for your thoughtful response. My interest is chiefly in the junk pseudoscience of frauds like Sitchin, Velikovsky, Talbot, von Daniken, Hoagland, etc. However, I frequently encounter them among our local folk with LDS associations attached, from LDS authors who mix religious language, references and credentials with their ancient astronauts, hollow earths and other conspiracies. I see it as a sort of "affinity fraud" of nonsense. Granted, there usually aren't large sums involved (just book sales), but the minds of many people are polluted with all kinds of antagonism toward scientific authority, and will turn to an astrologer or a conspiracy theorist before they will to an astronomer. This stuff is all over television and Youtube, and is rarely debunked or even questioned with any vigor. In an age of incredible astronomical discovery, we are treated to the absurdities of 2012 and the nagging question of whether we ever landed on the moon or whether to continue our space program.
This says it all... http://xkcd.com/258/ On 12/13/10 8:09 PM, garrard55@xmission.com wrote:
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:44:40 -0700 From: "Kim" <kimharch@cut.net> To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon theology Message-ID: <E1PSJwo-0007aE-0k@mx01.mta.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Richard, I think you may have misunderstood some comments regarding your inquiry. Most of us on this list try to be sensitive about other points of view, but there have been those times when opinions are mocked and personalities become the targets of comments instead of scientific debate. Hence my initial question about the purpose of your investigation. Censure is too strong a term. Some of us are just a bit gun shy about potentially loaded questions such as yours. We have entertained many opinions regarding intelligent design, creationism, Big Bang, even steady-state theories. None have been promoted, per se, at least not officially. We just make fun of those who still believe in such nonsense. (BIG smiley face here.)
I wouldn't object to an open forum on this list on religious questions as they relate to astronomy, but the consensus seems to be that the subject is too toxic in Utah's culture. If our moderator chooses to allow it, why not? I'm not afraid, and I don't think most of us are. We just don't want to allow religious discussion to overwhelm intelligent discussions of astronomy, in general, which is after all the purpose of the list.
Kim
Richard wrote:
"I note that my questions concerning Mormon astronomy meet with censure, while the promotion of Intelligent Design does not. Fascinating."
------------------------------
Thank you, Kim, for your thoughtful response.
My interest is chiefly in the junk pseudoscience of frauds like Sitchin, Velikovsky, Talbot, von Daniken, Hoagland, etc. However, I frequently encounter them among our local folk with LDS associations attached, from LDS authors who mix religious language, references and credentials with their ancient astronauts, hollow earths and other conspiracies. I see it as a sort of "affinity fraud" of nonsense. Granted, there usually aren't large sums involved (just book sales), but the minds of many people are polluted with all kinds of antagonism toward scientific authority, and will turn to an astrologer or a conspiracy theorist before they will to an astronomer. This stuff is all over television and Youtube, and is rarely debunked or even questioned with any vigor. In an age of incredible astronomical discovery, we are treated to the absurdities of 2012 and the nagging question of whether we ever landed on the moon or whether to continue our space program.
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I hope others don't mind if we continue this a bit. Now I think we may have something to talk about. Richard, you obviously have very strong opinions - nothing wrong with that, but they can easily be construed as attacks. I share your sentiments regarding Von Daniken but I'm not familiar with the others you cite. From my experience, Latter-Day Saints are no more prone to believe such stuff as any other group of well-meaning but perhaps uninformed people. I'm sure that literal interpretations of some LDS scriptures such as the writings of Abraham (where the Kolob story comes from) can sound just as strange and silly to others as ancient astronaut theories do to me. My take, as a believing LDS, is that the story of Abraham's Kolob, Biblical creation story and other stories from the Old Testament are largely allegorical. After all, how else might God explain to a goat herder concepts of cosmology, big bang theory, inflation, etc.? (Assuming these theories are basically correct, of course - another discussion.) For what it's worth, I've been really disappointed that the History Channel is airing programs on UFO's and ancient astronauts. A lot of nonsense, in my opinion. So, Richard, again I don't think that LDS are more naïve or gullible than others. It's simply a strange but fascinating reality of our American culture. Do you or anyone else know if this kind of stuff is as pervasive elsewhere in the world, particularly in our western counterparts such as Europe? BTW, David - love the cartoon! Kim
participants (3)
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David Rankin -
garrard55＠xmission.com -
Kim