Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
Well, I suppose that was before the plants in Utah were built, the damage to Utah's environment has already been done. That is some good news, but these plants and the coal being mined still goes to California. Still, 80% of IPP plant goes to California and was originally built for California.
California will continue to burn coal in Utah for electricity, although it is good news that it will not increase. I do doubt Natural Gas will be an inexpensive energy source for much longer, everybody seems planning to increase its use. Don is right about California restrictions on plants outside their
borders. The expansion of the IPP coal-fired plant near Lynndyl, Millard Count, was canceled because California is the recipient of most of the electricity from the plant -- and after a new law, California would not allow importation of new power from a coal-fired plant anywhere, even in Utah. -- Joe
--- On Mon, 5/24/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 10:22 AM
"I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects."
Don, I am sure that is a correct statement, but it probably means projects within their borders. Outside of the state, our most recent coal plants (delta and four corners) were built for California demand not Utah. I recall the four corners pollution was the first visible from space, that has hurt the skies in SW Utah, the haze greatly increased. The selling point are jobs, but I would think jobs could be created by other means, S Utah would be great for solar. These plants are of much greater benefit to California (we should at least tax the power going to California rather heavily) than Utah for they allow continued unsustainable growth there. California should be increasing use of solar panels on roofs and develop other things as well (wind and tidal power)
I believe the statement is a half truth of half lie, take your pick.
Erik
I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that
California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects. I think we need a buffer area around all the national parks and ten miles is not enough. I am just as worried about light pollution as dust. Is the operation going to be 24 hours a day? The federal regulations for reclaiming strip mines are very stringent and you are required to restore the land to its natural state with before and after photographs and replanting native vegetation but I am not sure if the State requirements are as strict and there are no significant requirements for private land. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:20 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
My biggest problem is this will not go to power for Utah, it will go to California so they can circumvent clean air regulation. Tourism is important to S Utah this can only hurt that. Don't forget BP has assured us the environmental harm is exaggerated. We get what we deserve, explain it to your children and grandchildren. We humans sure seem determined to ruin everything of beauty on this planet. My friend in Fla. says he can SMELL the oil in the gulf, and he's 10 miles from the coast. --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 3:23 PM Another article on this from last fall in the DNews at http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345869/Environmental-groups-challenge- strip-mining-permit-near-Bryce-Canyon-National-Park.html "David Nimkin, southwest regional director for the National Parks Conservation Association, also opposes the permit because of the impact it will have on the park. He asserts that the clean air, night skies and views would be threatened *by dust and light pollution generated by the mine*." Strip mining operates 24/7 and the lights used at night look like Las Vegas if you have ever seen this back east. Not a good thing for the skies at Bryce. Here is a M 4600 working at night and as the narrator says at the beginning "lights up like daytime." Imagine several of these machines operating that close to Bryce, I do think it will have an impact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRVgVHXOco On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:34 PM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
No comment!
Yes, I do believe this will put Bryce at risk as well as the area around
it. Funny things about it as the article alludes to. What worries me more are the comments that people are leaving behind. Wrong place to mine. I hope the Feds refuse to allow the company to expand and that they perhaps step in on this one since it threatens Bryce.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
> Hi Friends, This article has me worried about the wonderful > opportunities > for astronomy at Bryce. I suspect a strip mine only ten miles away would > kick up enough dust to degrade the seeing. What do you think? -- Joe > >
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700034412/Utahs-first-strip-mine.html
> > > > >
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I know that at least one mining company in Utah has signed big contracts with China to provide the "cleaner" coal that we have. Whether they are the recipient of the Bryce mine output, I don't know. Quoting erikhansen@thebluezone.net:
Well, I suppose that was before the plants in Utah were built, the damage to Utah's environment has already been done. That is some good news, but these plants and the coal being mined still goes to California. Still, 80% of IPP plant goes to California and was originally built for California.
California will continue to burn coal in Utah for electricity, although it is good news that it will not increase. I do doubt Natural Gas will be an inexpensive energy source for much longer, everybody seems planning to increase its use.
Don is right about California restrictions on plants outside their
borders. The expansion of the IPP coal-fired plant near Lynndyl, Millard Count, was canceled because California is the recipient of most of the electricity from the plant -- and after a new law, California would not allow importation of new power from a coal-fired plant anywhere, even in Utah. -- Joe
--- On Mon, 5/24/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 10:22 AM
"I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects."
Don, I am sure that is a correct statement, but it probably means projects within their borders. Outside of the state, our most recent coal plants (delta and four corners) were built for California demand not Utah. I recall the four corners pollution was the first visible from space, that has hurt the skies in SW Utah, the haze greatly increased. The selling point are jobs, but I would think jobs could be created by other means, S Utah would be great for solar. These plants are of much greater benefit to California (we should at least tax the power going to California rather heavily) than Utah for they allow continued unsustainable growth there. California should be increasing use of solar panels on roofs and develop other things as well (wind and tidal power)
I believe the statement is a half truth of half lie, take your pick.
Erik
I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that
California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects. I think we need a buffer area around all the national parks and ten miles is not enough. I am just as worried about light pollution as dust. Is the operation going to be 24 hours a day? The federal regulations for reclaiming strip mines are very stringent and you are required to restore the land to its natural state with before and after photographs and replanting native vegetation but I am not sure if the State requirements are as strict and there are no significant requirements for private land. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:20 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
My biggest problem is this will not go to power for Utah, it will go to California so they can circumvent clean air regulation. Tourism is important to S Utah this can only hurt that. Don't forget BP has assured us the environmental harm is exaggerated. We get what we deserve, explain it to your children and grandchildren. We humans sure seem determined to ruin everything of beauty on this planet. My friend in Fla. says he can SMELL the oil in the gulf, and he's 10 miles from the coast. --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 3:23 PM Another article on this from last fall in the DNews at http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345869/Environmental-groups-challenge- strip-mining-permit-near-Bryce-Canyon-National-Park.html "David Nimkin, southwest regional director for the National Parks Conservation Association, also opposes the permit because of the impact it will have on the park. He asserts that the clean air, night skies and views would be threatened *by dust and light pollution generated by the mine*." Strip mining operates 24/7 and the lights used at night look like Las Vegas if you have ever seen this back east. Not a good thing for the skies at Bryce. Here is a M 4600 working at night and as the narrator says at the beginning "lights up like daytime." Imagine several of these machines operating that close to Bryce, I do think it will have an impact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRVgVHXOco On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:34 PM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
No comment!
Yes, I do believe this will put Bryce at risk as well as the area around > it. > Funny things about it as the article alludes to. What worries me more are > the comments that people are leaving behind. Wrong place to mine. I hope > the Feds refuse to allow the company to expand and that they perhaps step > in > on this one since it threatens Bryce. > > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Joe Bauman > <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote: > >> Hi Friends, This article has me worried about the wonderful >> opportunities >> for astronomy at Bryce. I suspect a strip mine only ten miles away would >> kick up enough dust to degrade the seeing. What do you think? -- Joe >> >>
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700034412/Utahs-first-strip-mine.html
>> >> >> >> >>
>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >
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I also imagine, that considering California is not the only state on the grid, coal produced electricity will be diverted to states without the law. California will suck up the electricity produced by natural gas while coal use increases for other states. All the while this unfettered demand will continue to drive up the cost.
Where will Utah build the Natural Gas plant for California? California should blight their own landscape IMO. Utah coal will be used outside of Utah, face it. I will be surprized if Utah does not end up building another coal plant. I know that at least one mining company in Utah has signed big
contracts with China to provide the "cleaner" coal that we have. Whether they are the recipient of the Bryce mine output, I don't know.
Quoting erikhansen@thebluezone.net:
Well, I suppose that was before the plants in Utah were built, the damage to Utah's environment has already been done. That is some good news, but these plants and the coal being mined still goes to California. Still, 80% of IPP plant goes to California and was originally built for California.
California will continue to burn coal in Utah for electricity, although it is good news that it will not increase. I do doubt Natural Gas will be an inexpensive energy source for much longer, everybody seems planning to increase its use.
Don is right about California restrictions on plants outside their
borders. The expansion of the IPP coal-fired plant near Lynndyl, Millard Count, was canceled because California is the recipient of most of the electricity from the plant -- and after a new law, California would not allow importation of new power from a coal-fired plant anywhere, even in Utah. -- Joe
--- On Mon, 5/24/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 10:22 AM
"I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects."
Don, I am sure that is a correct statement, but it probably means projects within their borders. Outside of the state, our most recent coal plants (delta and four corners) were built for California demand not Utah. I recall the four corners pollution was the first visible from space, that has hurt the skies in SW Utah, the haze greatly increased. The selling point are jobs, but I would think jobs could be created by other means, S Utah would be great for solar. These plants are of much greater benefit to California (we should at least tax the power going to California rather heavily) than Utah for they allow continued unsustainable growth there. California should be increasing use of solar panels on roofs and develop other things as well (wind and tidal power)
I believe the statement is a half truth of half lie, take your pick.
Erik
I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that
California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects. I think we need a buffer area around all the national parks and ten miles is not enough. I am just as worried about light pollution as dust. Is the operation going to be 24 hours a day? The federal regulations for reclaiming strip mines are very stringent and you are required to restore the land to its natural state with before and after photographs and replanting native vegetation but I am not sure if the State requirements are as strict and there are no significant requirements for private land. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:20 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
My biggest problem is this will not go to power for Utah, it will go to California so they can circumvent clean air regulation. Tourism is important to S Utah this can only hurt that. Don't forget BP has assured us the environmental harm is exaggerated. We get what we deserve, explain it to your children and grandchildren. We humans sure seem determined to ruin everything of beauty on this planet. My friend in Fla. says he can SMELL the oil in the gulf, and he's 10 miles from the coast. --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 3:23 PM Another article on this from last fall in the DNews at http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345869/Environmental-groups-challenge- strip-mining-permit-near-Bryce-Canyon-National-Park.html "David Nimkin, southwest regional director for the National Parks Conservation Association, also opposes the permit because of the impact it will have on the park. He asserts that the clean air, night skies and views would be threatened *by dust and light pollution generated by the mine*." Strip mining operates 24/7 and the lights used at night look like Las Vegas if you have ever seen this back east. Not a good thing for the skies at Bryce. Here is a M 4600 working at night and as the narrator says at the beginning "lights up like daytime." Imagine several of these machines operating that close to Bryce, I do think it will have an impact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRVgVHXOco On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:34 PM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote: > No comment! > > > > > Yes, I do believe this will put Bryce at risk as well as the area around > > it. > > Funny things about it as the article alludes to. What worries me more are > > the comments that people are leaving behind. Wrong place to mine. I hope > > the Feds refuse to allow the company to expand and that they perhaps step > > in > > on this one since it threatens Bryce. > > > > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Joe Bauman > > <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote: > > > >> Hi Friends, This article has me worried about the wonderful > >> opportunities > >> for astronomy at Bryce. I suspect a strip mine only ten miles away would > >> kick up enough dust to degrade the seeing. What do you think? -- Joe > >> > >> > http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700034412/Utahs-first-strip-mine.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list > >> Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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The fact of the matter is that once the power is generated and put on the grid, it goes where it has to go which could be anywhere within the grid. The power is metered in and out and is overseen by the Western States Coordination Council. Much of the power generated in Utah is exported to other states but this is seasonal. When the demand is low in Utah such as during the late spring or early summer, much power is sold to Arizona, Nevada and California. As air conditioning and agricultural pumping of water increases in Utah, the volume of exported power goes down. Most of all the power generated by IPP goes to Southern California all year. The coal in the Alton field near Bryce, if mined will be for domestic use in the western U. S. The heat value of this coal (BTU's/pound) is lower than other coals in Utah and is therefore not economic for overseas transportation even though it is a clean (low sulfur) coal. It all comes down to delivered $/delivered BTU's and export will probably not happen. The coal from this field is however much higher in heat value than that being strip mined in the Powder River Basin of Wyoming and Montana. Rodger Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 3:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
I also imagine, that considering California is not the only state on the grid, coal produced electricity will be diverted to states without the law. California will suck up the electricity produced by natural gas while coal use increases for other states. All the while this unfettered demand will continue to drive up the cost.
Where will Utah build the Natural Gas plant for California? California should blight their own landscape IMO. Utah coal will be used outside of Utah, face it. I will be surprized if Utah does not end up building another coal plant. I know that at least one mining company in Utah has signed big
contracts with China to provide the "cleaner" coal that we have. Whether they are the recipient of the Bryce mine output, I don't know.
Quoting erikhansen@thebluezone.net:
Well, I suppose that was before the plants in Utah were built, the damage to Utah's environment has already been done. That is some good news, but these plants and the coal being mined still goes to California. Still, 80% of IPP plant goes to California and was originally built for California.
California will continue to burn coal in Utah for electricity, although it is good news that it will not increase. I do doubt Natural Gas will be an inexpensive energy source for much longer, everybody seems planning to increase its use.
Don is right about California restrictions on plants outside their
borders. The expansion of the IPP coal-fired plant near Lynndyl, Millard Count, was canceled because California is the recipient of most of the electricity from the plant -- and after a new law, California would not allow importation of new power from a coal-fired plant anywhere, even in Utah. -- Joe
--- On Mon, 5/24/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 10:22 AM
"I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects."
Don, I am sure that is a correct statement, but it probably means projects within their borders. Outside of the state, our most recent coal plants (delta and four corners) were built for California demand not Utah. I recall the four corners pollution was the first visible from space, that has hurt the skies in SW Utah, the haze greatly increased. The selling point are jobs, but I would think jobs could be created by other means, S Utah would be great for solar. These plants are of much greater benefit to California (we should at least tax the power going to California rather heavily) than Utah for they allow continued unsustainable growth there. California should be increasing use of solar panels on roofs and develop other things as well (wind and tidal power)
I believe the statement is a half truth of half lie, take your pick.
Erik
I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that
California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects. I think we need a buffer area around all the national parks and ten miles is not enough. I am just as worried about light pollution as dust. Is the operation going to be 24 hours a day? The federal regulations for reclaiming strip mines are very stringent and you are required to restore the land to its natural state with before and after photographs and replanting native vegetation but I am not sure if the State requirements are as strict and there are no significant requirements for private land. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:20 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
My biggest problem is this will not go to power for Utah, it will go to California so they can circumvent clean air regulation. Tourism is important to S Utah this can only hurt that. Don't forget BP has assured us the environmental harm is exaggerated. We get what we deserve, explain it to your children and grandchildren. We humans sure seem determined to ruin everything of beauty on this planet. My friend in Fla. says he can SMELL the oil in the gulf, and he's 10 miles from the coast. --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 3:23 PM Another article on this from last fall in the DNews at
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345869/Environmental-groups-challenge- strip-mining-permit-near-Bryce-Canyon-National-Park.html
"David Nimkin, southwest regional director for the National Parks Conservation Association, also opposes the permit because of the impact it will have on the park. He asserts that the clean air, night skies and views would be threatened *by dust and light pollution generated by the mine*." Strip mining operates 24/7 and the lights used at night look like Las Vegas if you have ever seen this back east. Not a good thing for the skies at Bryce. Here is a M 4600 working at night and as the narrator says at the beginning "lights up like daytime." Imagine several of these machines operating that close to Bryce, I do think it will have an impact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRVgVHXOco On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:34 PM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote: > No comment! > > > > > Yes, I do believe this will put Bryce at risk as well as the area around > > it. > > Funny things about it as the article alludes to. What worries me more are > > the comments that people are leaving behind. Wrong place to mine. I hope > > the Feds refuse to allow the company to expand and that they perhaps step > > in > > on this one since it threatens Bryce. > > > > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Joe Bauman > > <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote: > > > >> Hi Friends, This article has me worried about the wonderful > >> opportunities > >> for astronomy at Bryce. I suspect a strip mine only ten miles away would > >> kick up enough dust to degrade the seeing. What do you think? -- Joe > >> > >> >
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700034412/Utahs-first-strip-mine.html
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list > >> Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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Yes, and the power plants are built in Utah to avoid polluting in the states that use it. In California they are prohibited from building what they need because of clean air standards, they increase pollution in surrounding states. This is because our state government has little regard for our environment, IPP should have never been built.
The four corners plant also pollutes in Utah and little of its power is used in Utah. Our power grid is a major security risk, one blast could cripple entire western US, these grids should be localized and each state should live within the power they can generate. This would encourage conservation, there is much that can be done to conserve. The International Dark Sky Association has a few ideas on this. Unless this trend is curb areas like Bryce Canyon will always be under threat. You can't have it both ways. The fact of the matter is that once the power is generated and put on the
grid, it goes where it has to go which could be anywhere within the grid. The power is metered in and out and is overseen by the Western States Coordination Council. Much of the power generated in Utah is exported to other states but this is seasonal. When the demand is low in Utah such as during the late spring or early summer, much power is sold to Arizona, Nevada and California. As air conditioning and agricultural pumping of water increases in Utah, the volume of exported power goes down. Most of all the power generated by IPP goes to Southern California all year.
The coal in the Alton field near Bryce, if mined will be for domestic use in the western U. S. The heat value of this coal (BTU's/pound) is lower than other coals in Utah and is therefore not economic for overseas transportation even though it is a clean (low sulfur) coal. It all comes down to delivered $/delivered BTU's and export will probably not happen. The coal from this field is however much higher in heat value than that being strip mined in the Powder River Basin of Wyoming and Montana.
Rodger Fry
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 3:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
I also imagine, that considering California is not the only state on the grid, coal produced electricity will be diverted to states without the law. California will suck up the electricity produced by natural gas while coal use increases for other states. All the while this unfettered demand will continue to drive up the cost.
Where will Utah build the Natural Gas plant for California? California should blight their own landscape IMO. Utah coal will be used outside of Utah, face it. I will be surprized if Utah does not end up building another coal plant.
I know that at least one mining company in Utah has signed big
contracts with China to provide the "cleaner" coal that we have. Whether they are the recipient of the Bryce mine output, I don't know.
Quoting erikhansen@thebluezone.net:
Well, I suppose that was before the plants in Utah were built, the damage to Utah's environment has already been done. That is some good news, but these plants and the coal being mined still goes to California. Still, 80% of IPP plant goes to California and was originally built for California.
California will continue to burn coal in Utah for electricity, although it is good news that it will not increase. I do doubt Natural Gas will be an inexpensive energy source for much longer, everybody seems planning to increase its use.
Don is right about California restrictions on plants outside their
borders. The expansion of the IPP coal-fired plant near Lynndyl, Millard Count, was canceled because California is the recipient of most of the electricity from the plant -- and after a new law, California would not allow importation of new power from a coal-fired plant anywhere, even in Utah. -- Joe
--- On Mon, 5/24/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 10:22 AM
"I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects."
Don, I am sure that is a correct statement, but it probably means projects within their borders. Outside of the state, our most recent coal plants (delta and four corners) were built for California demand not Utah. I recall the four corners pollution was the first visible from space, that has hurt the skies in SW Utah, the haze greatly increased. The selling point are jobs, but I would think jobs could be created by other means, S Utah would be great for solar. These plants are of much greater benefit to California (we should at least tax the power going to California rather heavily) than Utah for they allow continued unsustainable growth there. California should be increasing use of solar panels on roofs and develop other things as well (wind and tidal power)
I believe the statement is a half truth of half lie, take your pick.
Erik
I am curious who is the end customer since I have been told that
California only allows natural gas generation for new power projects. I think we need a buffer area around all the national parks and ten miles is not enough. I am just as worried about light pollution as dust. Is the operation going to be 24 hours a day? The federal regulations for reclaiming strip mines are very stringent and you are required to restore the land to its natural state with before and after photographs and replanting native vegetation but I am not sure if the State requirements are as strict and there are no significant requirements for private land. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:20 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce
My biggest problem is this will not go to power for Utah, it will go to California so they can circumvent clean air regulation. Tourism is important to S Utah this can only hurt that. Don't forget BP has assured us the environmental harm is exaggerated. We get what we deserve, explain it to your children and grandchildren. We humans sure seem determined to ruin everything of beauty on this planet. My friend in Fla. says he can SMELL the oil in the gulf, and he's 10 miles from the coast. --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> wrote: > From: Jay Eads <jayleads@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Threat to Bryce > To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> > Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 3:23 PM > Another article on this from last > fall in the DNews at
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705345869/Environmental-groups-challenge- strip-mining-permit-near-Bryce-Canyon-National-Park.html
> "David Nimkin, southwest regional director for the National > Parks > Conservation Association, also opposes the permit because > of the impact it > will have on the park. He asserts that the clean air, night > skies and views > would be threatened *by dust and light pollution generated > by the mine*." > Strip mining operates 24/7 and the lights used at night > look like Las Vegas > if you have ever seen this back east. Not a good thing for > the skies at > Bryce. > Here is a M 4600 working at night and as the narrator says > at the beginning > "lights up like daytime." Imagine several of these machines > operating that > close to Bryce, I do think it will have an impact. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRVgVHXOco > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:34 PM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> > wrote: > > No comment! > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I do believe this will put Bryce at risk as well > as the area around > > > it. > > > Funny things about it as the article alludes to. > What worries me more are > > > the comments that people are leaving behind. > Wrong place to mine. I hope > > > the Feds refuse to allow the company to expand > and that they perhaps step > > > in > > > on this one since it threatens Bryce. > > > > > > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Joe Bauman > > > <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Friends, This article has me worried about > the wonderful > > >> opportunities > > >> for astronomy at Bryce. I suspect a strip > mine only ten miles away would > > >> kick up enough dust to degrade the seeing. > What do you think? -- Joe > > >> > > >> > >
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700034412/Utahs-first-strip-mine.html
> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list > > >> Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > > > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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participants (3)
-
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Josephine Grahn -
Rodger C. Fry