Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars
The higher mass of Phoenix ruled out the use of air bags. Apparently its possible but the increased weight requirement of the bags makes the Viking/Phoenix method a more efficient approach (less launch mass). It will be interesting to see how NASA chooses to get the Mars Science Laboratory to the surface, it looks very heavy....http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/spotlight/images/MSL_20080512.jpg Cheers David
First images from Phoenix are coming down now. Incredible! If things keep going this well folks are going to think NASA faked it. :) But seriously, pictures of the solar arrays (both deployed perfectly), foot pad (does not appear to have sunk into the surface at all) and the surrounding area (very flat) look great. Yeah Phoenix! BTW, channels 4, 5 and 13 covered the Landing Watch here at Stansbury. Look for coverage at 9:00 (channel 13) and 10:00. patrick
Here's the url: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote:
First images from Phoenix are coming down now.
I just printed-out the first stereo pair released, and it's pretty neat. I have a stereo viewer, but you don't need one, just cross your eyes until the images merge. True stereo pairs are so much better than the psychadelic red/blue crap. On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:02 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Here's the url:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Patrick Wiggins < paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote:
First images from Phoenix are coming down now.
Patrick, can you find out if stereo pairs are going to be released in color? I just printed-out a full-resolution stereo pair of the lander footpad on the surface. Wow. On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote:
First images from Phoenix are coming down now.
Hi Chuck, On 25 May 2008, at 23:25, Chuck Hards wrote:
Patrick, can you find out if stereo pairs are going to be released in color?
Last night's 22:00 briefing had a lot about images. Sounds like the "good stuff" will be released Tuesday at the regular 14:00 MDT briefing. But there was no mention of stereo imagery. So I emailed your question to a contact at Phoenix. I'll let you know if I hear something. Interestingly they said something to the effect that they are holding off on some of the big mosaics because there are civilians out there who download the raw images from the web and assemble excellent mosaics. I guess they want to give them first crack.
I just printed-out a full-resolution stereo pair of the lander footpad on the surface.
Wow.
I was not able to see the 3-D effect using crossed eyes so after reading your "Wow" I resorted to using the online images to create a red/blue anaglyph. Results here" http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/PADSTEREO-01.JPG Wow, indeed. What a day! patrick
Thanks, Patrick. One of the false-color shots on the Phoenix Website is actually a colorized frame from one side of the stereo camera; seems it would be relatively straightforward to colorize the corresponding frame from the other side. I implore everyone without a real stereo viewer to try the crossed-eyes method to view REAL stereo images. They are so much better than the red-blue anaglyphs. It's much easier than viewing random-dot stereograms- you don't have to look "past" the photos to some imaginary distant focal point. You simply cross your eyes and overlap the two photos. Try to not overcomplicate the process in frustration. Place the photos side-by-side. Sometimes you have to trim them with a scissor or lay one over the edge of the other, to reduce the separation distance a bit. Viewing distance is not critical, but the further back you get, the less drastically you have to cross your eyes. As you *slowly* cross your eyes, you will notice that three "images" form. The condition you are after is a visual overlap of both left-and-right photos- this is the photo in the middle of the three you are perceiving. Often one of the photos will have to be rotated slightly to achieve proper registration. Don't give up, it's like riding a bike. Frustrating at first, but once achieved you realize how easy it is, and how fantastic the pay-off. It may take five or ten minutes, but it's worth it. Once you get the knack, you'll never look at another red-blue "acid trip" photo again. B&W aside, realistic colors are worth the effort. And once you know how to do it, you can do it on a monitor and forego printing the shots completely, if you have a decent image manipulation program. Remember that for the Mars lander, the stereo effect will be best for objects from a meter to several meters away- worst for things in the extreme foreground, and gradually lessening with distance. On the footpad photo, for example, the details near the top of the leg are seen from drastically different perspectives by the left-and-right stereo cameras and it is actually impossible to register these details for a stereo view. It starts to "click" on the leg coil spring, improving as your gaze wanders down the leg toward the footpad. The little bracket with the hole in it on top of the footpad is a 3-dimensional wonder. Look at the two dark recesses under it; the grit that settled onto the footpad, the texture of the permafrost surface. Incredible. Once you can "free-fuse" stereo images easily, you can take your own true stereo photos, in color. I have stereo pairs of comet Hale-Bopp, using the earth's motion through space between exposures to generate the left-right separation. Sliding mechanisms for terrestrial stereo shots are only a registration convenience and not strictly needed. Rotating one of the photos if needed is a minor adjustment in the absence of a slider. For panoramic terrestrial shots, all one need do is move the camera/tripod a few inches to a few feet to the side of the first shot. Increasing the distance between the pairs increases the "scale model effect" with panoramic scenic shots. There are also thousands of historical stereo images available. The US Army started taking battlefield stereo pairs in the Civil War; there are even some of President Lincoln. I have seen many stereo shots of WWI battlefields as well. On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote:
Last night's 22:00 briefing had a lot about images. Sounds like the "good stuff" will be released Tuesday at the regular 14:00 MDT briefing. But there was no mention of stereo imagery.
So I emailed your question to a contact at Phoenix. I'll let you know if I hear something.
Thanks Patrick for putting up the red/blue pair my kids loved it. I'm able to see cross eyed fairly well so I too was blown away with the detail seen on the footpad, the dust covering everything and especially the textures of the disturbed dirt around the footpad, the polygons looked pretty good as well but as Chuck mentions the effect is less impressive due to the increased distance from the camera. I find a quick and hard crosseyed to bring out 3 blurry frames and then a concentration on the middle image to focus whci usually feels to me like I'm "sliding or pulling out" my focus and it just snaps into view quite, striking really. Chuck is their a particular computer program you use to view these on the monitor? I've had a tough time getting them to remain large and side by side, without having to do a whole cut and paste and resize in photoshop. I'll have to google "stereo viewer" and see if anything comes up. This is all pretty exciting, I watched today's briefing and to see an image of Phoenix on the chute is quite amazing!! Howard --- Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, Patrick. One of the false-color shots on the Phoenix Website is actually a colorized frame from one side of the stereo camera; seems it would be relatively straightforward to colorize the corresponding frame from the other side.
I implore everyone without a real stereo viewer to try the crossed-eyes method to view REAL stereo images. They are so much better than the red-blue anaglyphs. It's much easier than viewing random-dot stereograms- you don't have to look "past" the photos to some imaginary distant focal point. You simply cross your eyes and overlap the two photos. Try to not overcomplicate the process in frustration.
Place the photos side-by-side. Sometimes you have to trim them with a scissor or lay one over the edge of the other, to reduce the separation distance a bit. Viewing distance is not critical, but the further back you get, the less drastically you have to cross your eyes.
As you *slowly* cross your eyes, you will notice that three "images" form. The condition you are after is a visual overlap of both left-and-right photos- this is the photo in the middle of the three you are perceiving. Often one of the photos will have to be rotated slightly to achieve proper registration.
Don't give up, it's like riding a bike. Frustrating at first, but once achieved you realize how easy it is, and how fantastic the pay-off. It may take five or ten minutes, but it's worth it. Once you get the knack, you'll never look at another red-blue "acid trip" photo again. B&W aside, realistic colors are worth the effort. And once you know how to do it, you can do it on a monitor and forego printing the shots completely, if you have a decent image manipulation program.
Remember that for the Mars lander, the stereo effect will be best for objects from a meter to several meters away- worst for things in the extreme foreground, and gradually lessening with distance. On the footpad photo, for example, the details near the top of the leg are seen from drastically different perspectives by the left-and-right stereo cameras and it is actually impossible to register these details for a stereo view. It starts to "click" on the leg coil spring, improving as your gaze wanders down the leg toward the footpad. The little bracket with the hole in it on top of the footpad is a 3-dimensional wonder. Look at the two dark recesses under it; the grit that settled onto the footpad, the texture of the permafrost surface. Incredible.
Once you can "free-fuse" stereo images easily, you can take your own true stereo photos, in color. I have stereo pairs of comet Hale-Bopp, using the earth's motion through space between exposures to generate the left-right separation. Sliding mechanisms for terrestrial stereo shots are only a registration convenience and not strictly needed. Rotating one of the photos if needed is a minor adjustment in the absence of a slider. For panoramic terrestrial shots, all one need do is move the camera/tripod a few inches to a few feet to the side of the first shot. Increasing the distance between the pairs increases the "scale model effect" with panoramic scenic shots.
There are also thousands of historical stereo images available. The US Army started taking battlefield stereo pairs in the Civil War; there are even some of President Lincoln. I have seen many stereo shots of WWI battlefields as well.
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote:
Last night's 22:00 briefing had a lot about images. Sounds like the "good stuff" will be released Tuesday at the regular 14:00 MDT briefing. But there was no mention of stereo imagery.
So I emailed your question to a contact at Phoenix. I'll let you know if I hear something.
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Howard, for this kind of stuff I use a program called "Photostudio 2000". It's actually at least eight or nine years old by now, and is a kind of "Photoshop-lite". But I do essentially what you described- I resize and create a new file that contains both images side-by-side. If the crossed-eyes method seems uncomfortable and forced, give it time, and experiment with viewing distance. I just re-sized the footpad shots to about 8" x 8" each , and it is most comfortable to view at about 30" from my face at this size. The further from your face, the less drastically you have to cross your eyes. My government-issue stereo viewer actually requires small prints- I see much finer detail by using crossed-eyes and large prints. On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Howard Jackman <sumoetx@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chuck is their a particular computer program you use to view these on the monitor? I've had a tough time getting them to remain large and side by side, without having to do a whole cut and paste and resize in photoshop. I'll have to google "stereo viewer" and see if anything comes up.
Thanks Chuck! I haven't tried to print the images out-too cheap about ink usage I guess.
If the crossed-eyes method seems uncomfortable and forced, give it time, and experiment with viewing distance.
It's actually easy for me and not uncomfortable at all, I was trying to say that I do it quickly not a slow cross eye like I see some people do which seems to tire the eyes more. I'll try greater distances though -thanks for the tip! Now if the rain would go away, I've been itching to observe again. Might have to try for some lightning shots instead I guess Howard --- Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Howard, for this kind of stuff I use a program called "Photostudio 2000".
Speaking of ink, I just noticed that my photo cartridge is low- thanks, NASA... *;o)* ** Seriously, I'm glad you can do the cross-eyed trick, Howard. Many people give up too soon. What a lot of folks don't realize is that they cross their eyes naturally every day. Stare at your fingertip at a distance of about ten inches, and have someone else look at your eyes to verify that they are quite crossed. The stereo viewing technique can be just as intuitive, as Howard knows. On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Howard Jackman <sumoetx@yahoo.com> wrote:
Thanks Chuck! I haven't tried to print the images out-too cheap about ink usage I guess.
It's actually easy for me and not uncomfortable at all, I was trying to say that I do it quickly not a slow cross eye like I see some people do which seems to tire the eyes more. I'll try greater distances though -thanks for the tip!
Howard- Here's a link for downloading StereoPhoto Maker http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/index.html<http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/index.html>. I use it to manipulate the stereo photos (stills) that I've taken on my recent backpacks. It gives a lot of options about which type of output you want from stereo pairs, either printed or on screen, and I just used it now for the NASA photos after I saved them first. (It took me a while to find them. A couple of photos that appeared to be stereo pairs were labeled to have been taken by only one camera.) I'm just learning the program myself. There is also a link for StereoMovie Maker, which I have used for blending stereo video pairs taken while skiing this winter and backpacking in Canyonlands a couple of weeks ago, but it is much more challenging to get good results with stereo video, even with two identical video cameras. So far my video results have been 3-D-ish, but I've had promising results with the still photos. Bob Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: Howard Jackman<mailto:sumoetx@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars (1st pictures) Thanks Patrick for putting up the red/blue pair my kids loved it. I'm able to see cross eyed fairly well so I too was blown away with the detail seen on the footpad, the dust covering everything and especially the textures of the disturbed dirt around the footpad, the polygons looked pretty good as well but as Chuck mentions the effect is less impressive due to the increased distance from the camera. I find a quick and hard crosseyed to bring out 3 blurry frames and then a concentration on the middle image to focus whci usually feels to me like I'm "sliding or pulling out" my focus and it just snaps into view quite, striking really. Chuck is their a particular computer program you use to view these on the monitor? I've had a tough time getting them to remain large and side by side, without having to do a whole cut and paste and resize in photoshop. I'll have to google "stereo viewer" and see if anything comes up. This is all pretty exciting, I watched today's briefing and to see an image of Phoenix on the chute is quite amazing!! Howard --- Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com<mailto:chuck.hards@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks, Patrick. One of the false-color shots on the Phoenix Website is actually a colorized frame from one side of the stereo camera; seems it would be relatively straightforward to colorize the corresponding frame from the other side.
I implore everyone without a real stereo viewer to try the crossed-eyes method to view REAL stereo images. They are so much better than the red-blue anaglyphs. It's much easier than viewing random-dot stereograms- you don't have to look "past" the photos to some imaginary distant focal point. You simply cross your eyes and overlap the two photos. Try to not overcomplicate the process in frustration.
Place the photos side-by-side. Sometimes you have to trim them with a scissor or lay one over the edge of the other, to reduce the separation distance a bit. Viewing distance is not critical, but the further back you get, the less drastically you have to cross your eyes.
As you *slowly* cross your eyes, you will notice that three "images" form. The condition you are after is a visual overlap of both left-and-right photos- this is the photo in the middle of the three you are perceiving. Often one of the photos will have to be rotated slightly to achieve proper registration.
Don't give up, it's like riding a bike. Frustrating at first, but once achieved you realize how easy it is, and how fantastic the pay-off. It may take five or ten minutes, but it's worth it. Once you get the knack, you'll never look at another red-blue "acid trip" photo again. B&W aside, realistic colors are worth the effort. And once you know how to do it, you can do it on a monitor and forego printing the shots completely, if you have a decent image manipulation program.
Remember that for the Mars lander, the stereo effect will be best for objects from a meter to several meters away- worst for things in the extreme foreground, and gradually lessening with distance. On the footpad photo, for example, the details near the top of the leg are seen from drastically different perspectives by the left-and-right stereo cameras and it is actually impossible to register these details for a stereo view. It starts to "click" on the leg coil spring, improving as your gaze wanders down the leg toward the footpad. The little bracket with the hole in it on top of the footpad is a 3-dimensional wonder. Look at the two dark recesses under it; the grit that settled onto the footpad, the texture of the permafrost surface. Incredible.
Once you can "free-fuse" stereo images easily, you can take your own true stereo photos, in color. I have stereo pairs of comet Hale-Bopp, using the earth's motion through space between exposures to generate the left-right separation. Sliding mechanisms for terrestrial stereo shots are only a registration convenience and not strictly needed. Rotating one of the photos if needed is a minor adjustment in the absence of a slider. For panoramic terrestrial shots, all one need do is move the camera/tripod a few inches to a few feet to the side of the first shot. Increasing the distance between the pairs increases the "scale model effect" with panoramic scenic shots.
There are also thousands of historical stereo images available. The US Army started taking battlefield stereo pairs in the Civil War; there are even some of President Lincoln. I have seen many stereo shots of WWI battlefields as well.
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com<mailto:paw@wirelessbeehive.com>> wrote:
Last night's 22:00 briefing had a lot about images. Sounds like the "good stuff" will be released Tuesday at the regular 14:00 MDT briefing. But there was no mention of stereo imagery.
So I emailed your question to a contact at Phoenix. I'll let you know if I hear something.
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Following up on the subject of stereo imaging, I just came across this method I'd not heard of before: http://www.chinesejetpilot.com/?ID=204#24 Apparently it's just two side-by-side images blinked rapidly in succession. I don't know if it can be called "true" stereo but to my eyes at least it does seem to look like stereo. patrick On 26 May 2008, at 14:18, Chuck Hards wrote:
Thanks, Patrick. One of the false-color shots on the Phoenix Website is actually a colorized frame from one side of the stereo camera; seems it would be relatively straightforward to colorize the corresponding frame from the other side.
I implore everyone without a real stereo viewer to try the crossed- eyes method to view REAL stereo images. They are so much better than the red-blue anaglyphs. It's much easier than viewing random-dot stereograms- you don't have to look "past" the photos to some imaginary distant focal point. You simply cross your eyes and overlap the two photos. Try to not overcomplicate the process in frustration.
Looks good to me! This is an example of what is called the "persistence of vision". http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=persistence+of+vision&r=66 On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:18 AM, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com>wrote:
Following up on the subject of stereo imaging, I just came across this method I'd not heard of before:
http://www.chinesejetpilot.com/?ID=204#24
Apparently it's just two side-by-side images blinked rapidly in succession. I don't know if it can be called "true" stereo but to my eyes at least it does seem to look like stereo.
Hi Chuck, On 26 May 2008, at 03:13, Patrick Wiggins wrote:
On 25 May 2008, at 23:25, Chuck Hards wrote:
Patrick, can you find out if stereo pairs are going to be released in color?
Last night's 22:00 briefing had a lot about images. Sounds like the "good stuff" will be released Tuesday at the regular 14:00 MDT briefing. But there was no mention of stereo imagery.
So I emailed your question to a contact at Phoenix. I'll let you know if I hear something.
She just replied saying" "soon...just now concentrating on bringing down compressed data to characterize landing site :)" Looking forward to tomorrow's images, patrick
When I first noticed this image among all the other raw images, I almost dismissed it- but I'm glad I looked at an enlargement. This one is amazing, read the caption: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/PHX_Lander.html
That really is an amazing image to think that they actually caught it from orbit, Wow!! It was fun to watch then in their press briefing today talk about it and how some were very (and rightly so I think) skeptical that HiRise would be able to catch Phoenix. truly a one in a million (or more)shot. Thanks for the link Chuck. Howard --- Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
When I first noticed this image among all the other raw images, I almost dismissed it- but I'm glad I looked at an enlargement. This one is amazing, read the caption:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/PHX_Lander.html
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And how ironic to think (according to yesterday's briefing) the picture was taken "in case there were bad days on Mars", taken to help find Phoenix if it crashed. Instead they got a perfectly functioning spacecraft and one heck of a spectacular shot. When the picture was shown the speaker noted that it's a raw image and that the processed image will be much better. I can't wait for this afternoon's briefing. BTW, several new stereo pairs are available on the U of A's web site: http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/gallery.php patrick On 27 May 2008, at 01:41, Howard Jackman wrote:
That really is an amazing image to think that they actually caught it from orbit, Wow!!
It was fun to watch then in their press briefing today talk about it and how some were very (and rightly so I think) skeptical that HiRise would be able to catch Phoenix. truly a one in a million (or more)shot.
Thanks for the link Chuck.
Howard
Here's another version of this picture in context: http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230838main_PSP_008579_9020_descent.jpg On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 12:45 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
When I first noticed this image among all the other raw images, I almost dismissed it- but I'm glad I looked at an enlargement. This one is amazing, read the caption:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/PHX_Lander.html _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
On 25 May 2008, at 19:59, Naz & David wrote:
It will be interesting to see how NASA chooses to get the Mars Science Laboratory to the surface, it looks very heavy.
During today's Phoenix coverage one of the NASA folks mentioned "about a ton" when talking about MSL. I believe that's about twice the mass of Phoenix. BTW, MSL will be nuclear powered (RTGs) so no more worries about arrays deploying or dust or clouds blocking sunlight. patrick p.s. Next Phoenix update on NASA TV is set for 22:00 MDT.
That's the gist of my prior post. The higher mass of Phoenix was inherited along with the hardware and every other aspect of the mission. There was no budget for radical re-engineering and prototyping. On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Naz & David <naz_david@msn.com> wrote:
The higher mass of Phoenix ruled out the use of air bags.
participants (6)
-
Chris Russell -
Chuck Hards -
Howard Jackman -
Naz & David -
Patrick Wiggins -
ROBERT MARILYN GRANT