Don, you're cherry-picking your data.
I think there is still a controversy over how much economic development contributes to global warming.
While there is much yet to learn, the so-called controversy is largely clouding of the waters by those with an economic interest. Within the last month there's been renewed information of the rate of melting of the Greenland ice-sheet, in addition to melting in other zones, such as Mt. Kilimanjaro. Thousands of ice cores taken over the last century show that the ice goes back tens of thousands of years. If it had been as warm during the Roman era as your sources indicate, that ice would have melted then or would never have formed. Arctic permafrost that has been stable since the last ice age (as shown by the number of mammoths preserved in it) is rapidly turning to mush. Of course you can find a few scientists who disagree with this assessment, just like you can find a few scientists who don't like evolution. You can find a few scientists who believe in ghosts, in Sasquatch, in fairies, in alien abduction, and in all sorts of things. It is extremely rare in science that someone who goes against the grain is shown to be correct (Galileo, Kepler, etc). Most of them are just cranks.
Let's stir this pot just a bit. No one ever likes to speak in terms of scientific absolutes, but the wiggle room available for skeptics of human-caused global warming is shrinking faster than the snows on Kilimanjaro. The best available objective data make a compelling argument that industrial society is raising global temperatures, and now the question before us is, what do we do about it? What do we, >>at an individual level<<, do in response to this? As astronomy enthusiasts we're supposed to be just a skosh more scientifically literate than the general public. How do we use the knowledge available to us about greenhouse gasses and global warming to modify our individual behaviors to mitigate the consequences of our carbon-based economy? Seth
Here's a suggestion, eat more beef and less sprouts and beans! After all they are thought to be a big contributor to the methane gas part of the green house equation. Also, we need to ramp up our bombing strategeries and bomb the oil producing countries further into the stone age, where according to some on this list, we were much better off... ;) Here's looking forward to warmer times! Quoting Seth Jarvis <SJarvis@slco.org>:
Let's stir this pot just a bit.
No one ever likes to speak in terms of scientific absolutes, but the wiggle room available for skeptics of human-caused global warming is shrinking faster than the snows on Kilimanjaro. The best available objective data make a compelling argument that industrial society is raising global temperatures, and now the question before us is, what do we do about it? What do we, >>at an individual level<<, do in response to this? As astronomy enthusiasts we're supposed to be just a skosh more scientifically literate than the general public. How do we use the knowledge available to us about greenhouse gasses and global warming to modify our individual behaviors to mitigate the consequences of our carbon-based economy?
Seth
--- diveboss@xmission.com wrote:
Here's a suggestion, eat more beef and less sprouts and beans! After all they are thought to be a big contributor to the methane gas part of the green house equation. Also, we need to ramp up our bombing strategeries and bomb the oil producing countries further into the stone age, where according to some on this list, we were much better off... ;) Here's looking forward to warmer times!
The best solution would be to place a sofa cushion face down in the middle of the floor, sit down next to it and beat on it with a hockey stick, all the time yelling, "I hate you Dick Cheney, I hate you Halliburton". Keep it up until you can't lift your arms up or you pass out. After that you need to reflect on some of the positive aspects of the world today. After all the Red Sox did finally win the world series, after a decisive, crushing, humiliating, pennant race victory over the.....(arg)...(ick)....(gulp)...NEW YORK YANKEES.........................................I hate you George Steinbrenner....wham...wham...wham. Thank you for sharing your feelings with us here at Utah Astronomy and Holistic Wellness. DT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Daniel, just keep voting Republican and NYC will be underwater before you know it, problem solved. :o) --- daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> wrote:
After that you need to reflect on some of the positive aspects of the world today. After all the Red Sox did finally win the world series, after a decisive, crushing, humiliating, pennant race victory over the.....(arg)...(ick)....(gulp)...NEW YORK YANKEES.........................................I hate you George Steinbrenner....wham...wham...wham.
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But of course, Michael, when those mammoths were frozen the climate at that location must have been mild enough to support those huge semi-elephants. They ate a lot, and it wasn't frozen tundra. And Earth was far warmer than that in the more distant past. Even if we are getting warmer than it's been in 10,000 years, that's not necessarily an unnatural cycle. I'm not trying to advocate against the idea that global warming is taking place; it is. I'm just trying to sort out how much of it is due to man. I think we have a tendency to believe we're the be-all and end-all of creation, without understanding much longer cycles. There was a mini-ice age in the 1350s or so that made the Viking settlement in Greenland uninhabitable (to the European approach to survival, that is). Then Earth bumped back into the warming trend. I doubt man had anything to do with either the original warming, the return to cold, or the resumed warming. When we think about the amazing amount of greenhouse gases that are flowing into the atmosphere from volcano eruptions and maybe hydrothermal vents, about the long, long, long term climate trends and other factors like the sunspot cycle, that's enough to warn us to be cautious about assessing blame or corrections. One suggestion that was pressed by environmentalists in the past was to increase gas taxes so we would drive less and therefore emitted less tailpipe pollution. Even assuming higher taxes would drastically cut down on driving, that would have a severe impact on families that can barely afford to send their kids to universities. Also, the effect on the economy could be devastating, with the cost of shipping food and everything else going up. You have to ask, is it worth is? Is global warming a true, harmful effect of man? If so, should we be willing to make such great sacrifices in order to attempt to correct it? That brings up another question that must be answered: how do we know global warming is a terrible change? What if, as I heard a botanist say, it would stimulate plant growth far beyond today's growth? With more carbon dioxide for them to suck in, warmer weather, more moisture, plants of all kinds could undergo an explosive growth spurt. That might mean bigger and better crops and jungles and rain forests. Is that necessarily bad? And do we really know that we're having an impact? What action do we take against countries that won't or can't go along with our belt-tightening? For example, the Kyoto Accords, as I understand them, give a pass to underdeveloped countries -- the very ones that are pumping out the most pollution. What do we do about them? Bomb them into the stone age in the name of global security? I think the issue is loaded with danger to our economy and international relations, and that the knee-jerk approach is wrong. I have yet to see proof that a) humans are contributing significantly to the warming, and b) its consequences are as bad as people seem to think. This is a stimulating conversation and I truly enjoy hearing both sides. Best wishes, Joe
Joe Bauman wrote:
One suggestion that was pressed by environmentalists in the past was to increase gas taxes so we would drive less and therefore emitted less tailpipe pollution.
Another, even easier, plan would be do just drive slower. Makes for better fuel economy and less emissions so I've done most of my driving below the speed limit for years. I always wondered just how much the savings might be so for the trip to Wendover to see Stardust come home I conducted an experiment. As I was leaving Stansbury I topped off the fuel tank at the Stansbury Maverik and then drove to Wendover doing 55 to 60. Then topped off the tank in Wendover. After Stardust's spectacular return (it really was great!) I drove home doing 75 (ok, maybe occasionally 80) and topped the tank back at the Stansbury Maverik. As most of you know the route is pretty flat so it's not like I was going up hill one way and down hill the other. There was some wind but it was out of the south which made it perpendicular to my direction of travel. The results surprised me. For the trip over I burned 3.7 gallons but while lead footing it back I burned 4.9. If I'm doing the math right, that's about a 32% penalty for going faster. So I'm doing my part by continuing to keep my speeds down but it sure bugs me when I'm passed by some gas guzzling SUV (whose owner is probably complaining about how much it costs to drive the thing). Patrick the Tree Hugger
Patrick, what kind of an experiment is that. Everyone who travels to Wendover knows you use less fuel coming home. As far as coming and going is concerned, from Wendover that is, I find just the opposite is true based on fuel used. For instance, when I'm heading to Wendover to meet up with my SCUBA class, usually on a Saturday morning, I average about two speeding tickets, on the trip home, one. Explain that mister! Quoting Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com>:
Joe Bauman wrote:
One suggestion that was pressed by environmentalists in the past was to increase gas taxes so we would drive less and therefore emitted less tailpipe pollution.
Another, even easier, plan would be do just drive slower. Makes for better fuel economy and less emissions so I've done most of my driving below the speed limit for years.
I always wondered just how much the savings might be so for the trip to Wendover to see Stardust come home I conducted an experiment.
As I was leaving Stansbury I topped off the fuel tank at the Stansbury Maverik and then drove to Wendover doing 55 to 60. Then topped off the tank in Wendover.
After Stardust's spectacular return (it really was great!) I drove home doing 75 (ok, maybe occasionally 80) and topped the tank back at the Stansbury Maverik.
As most of you know the route is pretty flat so it's not like I was going up hill one way and down hill the other.
There was some wind but it was out of the south which made it perpendicular to my direction of travel.
The results surprised me. For the trip over I burned 3.7 gallons but while lead footing it back I burned 4.9.
If I'm doing the math right, that's about a 32% penalty for going faster.
So I'm doing my part by continuing to keep my speeds down but it sure bugs me when I'm passed by some gas guzzling SUV (whose owner is probably complaining about how much it costs to drive the thing).
Patrick the Tree Hugger
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Sorry to be song long in replying--the thread's basically dead now-- but I got stuck in meetings. You (and Don) took a while to write out your last postings so I thought they deserved one final reply. As Chuck pointed out, wooly mammoths were cold-weather creatures. If they had died in warm weather, they'd have decayed long before freezing. So they had to have died during quite cold weather. Then, as now, there were still sufficient vegetable materials to keep them fed. Maybe nothing Guy would eat, but just fine for mammoths.
But of course, Michael, when those mammoths were frozen the climate at that location must have been mild enough to support those huge semi-elephants. They ate a lot, and it wasn't frozen tundra.
I'd be the last one to deny that drastic climate changes throughout Earth's history were caused by natural events. Variation in the sun's radiation continues now. There's the occasional asteroid (KT boundary) or huge volcano (Permian/Triassic), The growth of mountains causes enormous change. I don't doubt at least some of Don's data of earlier temperature swings. Bear in mind that the Sargasso Sea figures are local surface temperatures covering a range of about 3 degrees C in a limited area. But the effects we're seeing now are reflected all over the world. Important temperature moderators like the Gulf Stream appear to be weakening. And there's one last disturbing detail that scientists have been learning from previous temperature swings. When climate changes, it doesn't appear to be gradual. Instead change is nearly immediate, occurring over just decades. Yep, the growing season in Canada will improve, but those same models don't show Utah as getting any better. OK, so there's doubt in some quarters--not many, but some. I'd ask the question "what's wrong with a little caution". There's absolutely no leadership coming from Washington. Why not raise fuel economy standards a little. It's not so hard to do. Why not drive a little less, a little slower, a little smaller car? Why not lower the amount of ambient light all over (I probably won't get much argument about THAT from this bunch)? What do we lose from a little energy efficiency? It seems that wastefulness is tied into some peoples' idea of manhood. There's an awful lot to lose (civilization as we know it) if our actions cause climate change. There's nothing at all to lose by living a little more modestly--and we might help avert some of the potential damage. That might allow us to scientifically determine our part in climate change before we screw up, instead of after. The old medical phrase 'First, do no harm' contains an awful lot of wisdom. It would seem to apply in these circumstances.
Michael, I beg to differ. The Smithsonian Astrophysical Laboratory used measurements of the "Sargasso Sea surface temperatures derived from 18O/16O (Oxygen) ratios. These are indicators of evaporation, hence a proxy for sea surface temperature. The Sargasso Sea is a 2,000,000 square mile body of water in the North Atlantic Ocean lying roughly between the West Indies and the Azores, at approximately 20-35 deg. North Latitude. It is relatively static through its vertical columns so that potential interference from mixing with other water masses and sediment sources is minimal. The isotropic ratios are derived from biotic debris that has vertically precipitated onto the seafloor. Wide and abrupt variations in temperature are indicated... The horizontal line is the average temperature for this 3000-year period." Quote form "Rate and Magnitude of Past Global Climate Changes" by Bluemle, Sabel and Karlen (2001). They also show a graph of Sargasso Sea temperature from 3000-years ago to the present that shows that we are still below the mean temperature for that period. See http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewImage.do?id=8722&aid=3842 and http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewArticle.do?id=3842&archives=true Don't get me wrong, I believe there is clear evidence for global warming since about 1810 see http://www.ece.byu.edu/mers/long/papers/TGARS1999MayLong.pdf, I am just not convinced that CO2 is as much a factor as solar temperature changes. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+djcolton=piol.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Michael Carnes Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:56 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Science Fair Don, you're cherry-picking your data.
I think there is still a controversy over how much economic development
contributes to global warming.
While there is much yet to learn, the so-called controversy is largely clouding of the waters by those with an economic interest. Within the last month there's been renewed information of the rate of melting of the Greenland ice-sheet, in addition to melting in other zones, such as Mt. Kilimanjaro. Thousands of ice cores taken over the last century show that the ice goes back tens of thousands of years. If it had been as warm during the Roman era as your sources indicate, that ice would have melted then or would never have formed. Arctic permafrost that has been stable since the last ice age (as shown by the number of mammoths preserved in it) is rapidly turning to mush. Of course you can find a few scientists who disagree with this assessment, just like you can find a few scientists who don't like evolution. You can find a few scientists who believe in ghosts, in Sasquatch, in fairies, in alien abduction, and in all sorts of things. It is extremely rare in science that someone who goes against the grain is shown to be correct (Galileo, Kepler, etc). Most of them are just cranks. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
If you look at the Sargasso Sea surface temperature history http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewImage.do?id=8722&aid=3842 what immediately jumps out is how much variation there has been in the past. Maybe the answer is shining down on us on a clear day. Clear Skies Don
One final thought on global warming. Sergey R. Kotov, Institute of Precambrian Geology and Geochronology, Saint Petersburg, Russia in a paper "Near-Term Climate Prediction Using Ice-Core Data from Greenland", (2001 from "Geologic Perspectives of Global Climate Change") has a graph of the twenty-year average record of 18O/16O abundances from ice core data over the last 10,000 years and another graph covering the last 16,000 years (the latter graph shows the ice age that occurred about 12,000 years ago quite well). This data was taken from the GISP2 core and it corresponds well with the Sargasso Sea surface temperature data. Using mathematical modeling of historical data he predicts we will have more than 200 more years of global warming based purely on natural causes followed by a precipitous drop in temperature. I am skeptical of projections from historical data, but if he is right and if CO2 from economic development also contributes significantly to global warming we could have some pretty warm days ahead. Other studies in the same book also shows a correspondence between high levels of CO2 and global warming but because high CO2 levels often lag global warming the question remains are high CO2 levels in the "historical" record the cause of global warming or are they the result of global warming. Clear Skies Don
Don, You around? I need to talk to two folks re. global warming for a poll story I'm doing, and you're the most articulate person I could talk to on one of the sides. Are you avaliable for a very short interview? It's really just for the introduction of the poll questions, but I am hoping to quote two knowledgeable people to set the stage. thanks, Joe
Oops, pls excuse, I thought that was going directly to Don Colton. -- Joe
Here we go!! lol a new string on global warming has begun... seriously though I would be interested in seeing a line by line comparison on the two sides of the issues and what each sides arguments are on common topics Bob Bob Moore Commerce CRG - Salt Lake City office 175 East 400 South, Suite 700 Salt Lake City, Utah 84111 Direct: 801-303-5418 Main: 801-322-2000 Fax: 801-322-2040 BMoore@commercecrg.com www.commercecrg.com -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+bmoore=commercecrg.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+bmoore=commercecrg.com@mailman.xmission.c om] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:32 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Global Warming Don, You around? I need to talk to two folks re. global warming for a poll story I'm doing, and you're the most articulate person I could talk to on one of the sides. Are you avaliable for a very short interview? It's really just for the introduction of the poll questions, but I am hoping to quote two knowledgeable people to set the stage. thanks, Joe _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
No, no, I didn't intend to start a string -- just looking for an interview, I inadvertantly sent the note to the newsgroup instead of Don Colton. Best wishes, Joe
10/4 well I would still like to see a genuine comparison of facts on both sides should be interesting bob Bob Moore Commerce CRG - Salt Lake City office 175 East 400 South, Suite 700 Salt Lake City, Utah 84111 Direct: 801-303-5418 Main: 801-322-2000 Fax: 801-322-2040 BMoore@commercecrg.com www.commercecrg.com -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+bmoore=commercecrg.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+bmoore=commercecrg.com@mailman.xmission.c om] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:51 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Global Warming No, no, I didn't intend to start a string -- just looking for an interview, I inadvertantly sent the note to the newsgroup instead of Don Colton. Best wishes, Joe _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
I must ask you to please withdraw my name as the second knowledgeable source as I'm not feeling on point today. ;) Quoting Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com>:
Don, You around? I need to talk to two folks re. global warming for a poll story I'm doing, and you're the most articulate person I could talk to on one of the sides. Are you avaliable for a very short interview? It's really just for the introduction of the poll questions, but I am hoping to quote two knowledgeable people to set the stage. thanks, Joe
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Oh rats, there goes the story! -- Joe
I must ask you to please withdraw my name as the second knowledgeable source as I'm not feeling on point today. ;)
Quoting Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com>:
Don, You around? I need to talk to two folks re. global warming for a poll story I'm doing, and you're the most articulate person I could talk to on one of the sides. Are you avaliable for a very short interview? It's really just for the introduction of the poll questions, but I am hoping to quote two knowledgeable people to set the stage. thanks, Joe
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You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 2:08 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Global Warming Oh rats, there goes the story! -- Joe
I must ask you to please withdraw my name as the second knowledgeable source as I'm not feeling on point today. ;)
Quoting Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com>:
Don, You around? I need to talk to two folks re. global warming for a poll story I'm doing, and you're the most articulate person I could talk to on one of the sides. Are you avaliable for a very short interview? It's really just for the introduction of the poll questions, but I am hoping to quote two knowledgeable people to set the stage. thanks, Joe
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On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :)
pw Perhaps, summer in the desert. Just glad I'm not in the floods in the SE! If you think this is extreme just wait until the moon drifts away, in billions of years. I think it gets, what, about an inch further away every decade. Erik _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Uhhh...what did I miss? How is the earth warmer at aphelion? -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :) pw _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com ______________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net ______________________________________________________________________
I'm reminded of something I saw - I think on TV - a few years ago. An enterprising reporter or filmmaker interviewed Harvard students on the day of their graduation. One question was, "Why is it warmer in summer than winter?" One fellow blithely asserted that the earth was closer to the sun and that accounted for the warmer days. I guess he hadn't heard of the southern hemisphere, let alone how perihelion (a term I'm sure he had never heard, either) actually occurs in December. It was shocking, and a bit sad, how many of his fellow graduates had the same response. Maybe there's a project for Joe next graduation season? Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:04 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming Uhhh...what did I miss? How is the earth warmer at aphelion? -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :) pw
He must have gone to high school in Tennesse, but why should we believe what "science" tells us. Erik
I'm reminded of something I saw - I think on TV - a few years ago. An
enterprising reporter or filmmaker interviewed Harvard students on the day of their graduation. One question was, "Why is it warmer in summer than winter?" One fellow blithely asserted that the earth was closer to the sun and that accounted for the warmer days. I guess he hadn't heard of the southern hemisphere, let alone how perihelion (a term I'm sure he had never heard, either) actually occurs in December. It was shocking, and a bit sad, how many of his fellow graduates had the same response.
Maybe there's a project for Joe next graduation season?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:04 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
Uhhh...what did I miss? How is the earth warmer at aphelion?
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :)
pw
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Just curious, but what would Tennesse have to do with anything? Quoting erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net:
He must have gone to high school in Tennesse, but why should we believe what "science" tells us. Erik
I'm reminded of something I saw - I think on TV - a few years ago. An
enterprising reporter or filmmaker interviewed Harvard students on the day of their graduation. One question was, "Why is it warmer in summer than winter?" One fellow blithely asserted that the earth was closer to the sun and that accounted for the warmer days. I guess he hadn't heard of the southern hemisphere, let alone how perihelion (a term I'm sure he had never heard, either) actually occurs in December. It was shocking, and a bit sad, how many of his fellow graduates had the same response.
Maybe there's a project for Joe next graduation season?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:04 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
Uhhh...what did I miss? How is the earth warmer at aphelion?
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :)
pw
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At the risk of offending anyone, I can think of two reasons: (1) Religion instruction takes priority over science; (2) The gene pool isn't very deep. [Did I really say that?] -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of diveboss@xmission.com Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 12:09 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming Just curious, but what would Tennesse have to do with anything? Quoting erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net:
He must have gone to high school in Tennesse, but why should we believe what "science" tells us. Erik
I'm reminded of something I saw - I think on TV - a few years ago. An
enterprising reporter or filmmaker interviewed Harvard students on the day of their graduation. One question was, "Why is it warmer in summer than winter?" One fellow blithely asserted that the earth was closer to the sun and that accounted for the warmer days. I guess he hadn't heard of the southern hemisphere, let alone how perihelion (a term I'm sure he had never heard, either) actually occurs in December. It was shocking, and a bit sad, how many of his fellow graduates had the same response.
Maybe there's a project for Joe next graduation season?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:04 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
Uhhh...what did I miss? How is the earth warmer at aphelion?
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :)
pw
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com ______________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net ______________________________________________________________________ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM
Where the court ruled that evolution and creationism where to be taught as equal theories. No accredited university would agree with that position.
Just curious, but what would Tennesse have to do with anything?
Quoting erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net:
He must have gone to high school in Tennesse, but why should we believe what "science" tells us. Erik
I'm reminded of something I saw - I think on TV - a few years ago. An
enterprising reporter or filmmaker interviewed Harvard students on the day of their graduation. One question was, "Why is it warmer in summer than winter?" One fellow blithely asserted that the earth was closer to the sun and that accounted for the warmer days. I guess he hadn't heard of the southern hemisphere, let alone how perihelion (a term I'm sure he had never heard, either) actually occurs in December. It was shocking, and a bit sad, how many of his fellow graduates had the same response.
Maybe there's a project for Joe next graduation season?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:04 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
Uhhh...what did I miss? How is the earth warmer at aphelion?
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :)
pw
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The film you're remembering is called "A Private Universe" produced by the Astronomical Society of the Pacific. It's a classic, and we use it when teaching teachers. The message of the film is essentially, "Be careful what you put into your head, because you're going to have a helluva time getting it back out when you discover it's wrong." Seth "The truth will set you free, but first it's going to piss you off." - Gloria Steinem -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+sjarvis=slco.org@mailman.xmission.com on behalf of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Fri 7/6/2007 11:41 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
He must have gone to high school in Tennesse, but why should we believe what "science" tells us. Erik
I'm reminded of something I saw - I think on TV - a few years ago. An
enterprising reporter or filmmaker interviewed Harvard students on the day of their graduation. One question was, "Why is it warmer in summer than winter?" One fellow blithely asserted that the earth was closer to the sun and that accounted for the warmer days. I guess he hadn't heard of the southern hemisphere, let alone how perihelion (a term I'm sure he had never heard, either) actually occurs in December. It was shocking, and a bit sad, how many of his fellow graduates had the same response.
Maybe there's a project for Joe next graduation season?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:04 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
Uhhh...what did I miss? How is the earth warmer at aphelion?
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Wiggins Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming
On 05 Jul 2007, at 14:28, Kim wrote:
You can quote me, Joe: It's too warm.
Something to do with Earth being at aphelion tomorrow evening? :)
pw
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I just googled “A Private Universe” and found that the video is available for viewing online at: http://www.learner.org/resources/series28.html?pop=yes&vodid=651833&pid=9#. To view this 20-minute video, you’ll have to register (free) but it’s well worth the time. It’s a fascinating film. Although made 20 years ago, I doubt much has changed. Take the 20 minutes to view. You won’t be disappointed. I have a private theory why the misconceptions demonstrated in the film persist. I think that “visual” persons have little difficulty grasping the concepts of seasons and moon phases. I don’t pretend to be smarter than anyone else, but I have a good visual/three-dimensional sense (one reason I pursued architecture as a career) and I’ve never had difficulty grasping these concepts, even as a child. I don’t recall ever thinking differently. I suspect that persons with good visual sense are a small minority and that the majority simply lack the inherent tools to comprehend these concepts without a lot of instruction. Well, it’s a slow Saturday – so far. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Seth Jarvis Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 12:21 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Global Warming The film you're remembering is called "A Private Universe" produced by the Astronomical Society of the Pacific. It's a classic, and we use it when teaching teachers. The message of the film is essentially, "Be careful what you put into your head, because you're going to have a helluva time getting it back out when you discover it's wrong." Seth "The truth will set you free, but first it's going to piss you off." - Gloria Steinem No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.1/889 - Release Date: 7/6/2007 8:00 PM
participants (13)
-
Bob Moore -
Chuck Hards -
daniel turner -
diveboss＠xmission.com -
Don J. Colton -
erikhansen＠TheBlueZone.net -
Joe Bauman -
Kim -
Michael Carnes -
Michael Carnes
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Patrick Wiggins -
Richard Tenney -
Seth Jarvis