Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either. Jon
Huge government deficits seem to have forced our government into capitulating on the space program. They're probably thinking that paying 30% on a space project is more cost effective than paying 100%. Besides, when NASA was footing the entire bill, wasn't the proceeds going to private companies like Lookheed, Martin, Boeing, etc? --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote: From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either. Jon _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC? ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.) The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes. I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory? I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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Kim, I think what you’re forgetting is the role of natural selection in this setting. Nearly every mutation is deleterious. Without natural selection in the equation the survival situation would be hopeless. For example, for “sighted” species, mutations that compromise sight would be swiftly dealt with by natural selection. If not, that species would find itself at a distinct disadvantage and would go the way of many species, extinction. However, for a species that finds itself in a completely dark environment mutations to the vision system would not cause any survival disadvantage; they’re not using that system anyway. Mutations would steadily build in the vision systems of these species and natural selection would have little or no input because there would be no selective advantage for these species. This would be the “negative-selection” side of the argument. On the positive side, natural selection would have to kick in selective advantages for maintenance of the eyeless state. Hence, you see organisms with no eyes whatsoever. It takes energy to maintain a nonfunctional system and natural selection would favor those organisms that adapted completely to a dark environment. For example, those organisms you mentioned that had no eyes at all. Eyes, especially non-functional eyes, would be a distinct disadvantage in a totally dark environment. Eyes are soft and easily injured. They are moist and prone to infection. Natural selection (in a completely dark environment) would favor those organisms that got rid of the eyes, completely, and grew some type of protective tissue in its place. Dave On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Kim wrote:
Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC? ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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Humans are interfering with natural selection, we are the cause of the current extinction event on earth. Many species are disappearing that might have had positive traits that may have benefited humans. Humans are not capable of determining what trait is advantageous. We have altered natural selection for better or worse?????
Kim,
I think what youre forgetting is the role of natural selection in this setting. Nearly every mutation is deleterious. Without natural selection in the equation the survival situation would be hopeless. For example, for sighted species, mutations that compromise sight would be swiftly dealt with by natural selection. If not, that species would find itself at a distinct disadvantage and would go the way of many species, extinction. However, for a species that finds itself in a completely dark environment mutations to the vision system would not cause any survival disadvantage; theyre not using that system anyway. Mutations would steadily build in the vision systems of these species and natural selection would have little or no input because there would be no selective advantage for these species. This would be the negative-selection side of the argument. On the positive side, natural selection would have to kick in selective advantages for maintenance of the eyeless state. Hence, you see organisms with no eyes whatsoever. It takes energy to maintain a nonfunctional system and natural selection would favor those organisms that adapted completely to a dark environment. For example, those organisms you mentioned that had no eyes at all. Eyes, especially non-functional eyes, would be a distinct disadvantage in a totally dark environment. Eyes are soft and easily injured. They are moist and prone to infection. Natural selection (in a completely dark environment) would favor those organisms that got rid of the eyes, completely, and grew some type of protective tissue in its place.
Dave
On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Kim wrote:
Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC? ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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OK, that all makes sense. Thanks. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gary Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 4:02 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) Kim, I think what you're forgetting is the role of natural selection in this setting. Nearly every mutation is deleterious. Without natural selection in the equation the survival situation would be hopeless. For example, for "sighted" species, mutations that compromise sight would be swiftly dealt with by natural selection. If not, that species would find itself at a distinct disadvantage and would go the way of many species, extinction. However, for a species that finds itself in a completely dark environment mutations to the vision system would not cause any survival disadvantage; they're not using that system anyway. Mutations would steadily build in the vision systems of these species and natural selection would have little or no input because there would be no selective advantage for these species. This would be the "negative-selection" side of the argument. On the positive side, natural selection would have to kick in selective advantages for maintenance of the eyeless state. Hence, you see organisms with no eyes whatsoever. It takes energy to maintain a nonfunctional system and natural selection would favor those organisms that adapted completely to a dark environment.. For example, those organisms you mentioned that had no eyes at all. Eyes, especially non-functional eyes, would be a distinct disadvantage in a totally dark environment. Eyes are soft and easily injured. They are moist and prone to infection. Natural selection (in a completely dark environment) would favor those organisms that got rid of the eyes, completely, and grew some type of protective tissue in its place. Dave On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Kim wrote:
Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC? ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC?
;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious person I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and humankind's role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book of Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural selection/evolution - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than the stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical. I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be jolly? Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC?
;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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"Isn't this the season to be jolly? Yes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim" <kimharch@cut.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:57:50 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious person I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and humankind's role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book of Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural selection/evolution - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than the stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical. I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be jolly? Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC?
;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not evolution) and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a closed system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you start looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic proteins cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. As Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single cell forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going through a junkyard and creating a 747". -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious person I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and humankind's role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book of Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural selection/evolution - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than the stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical. I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be jolly? Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC?
;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the universe is older than we believe. Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the universe is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material would have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it as it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the notion we live in closed universe.
There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to have evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can change in hours. The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up from virtually nothing. How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. It always get to question: How did this all begin? Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not
evolution) and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a closed system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you start looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic proteins cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. As Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single cell forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going through a junkyard and creating a 747".
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious person I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and humankind's role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book of Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural selection/evolution - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than the stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical.
I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be jolly?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise.
Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC?
;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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Kim, My feeling is that eyes are a hindrance in a completely dark environment, because they are large, vulnerable blobs that easily become infected if damaged -- yet they do no good at all. So the loss of eyes would be an evolutionary advantage, and natural selection follows its usual course. -- Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:
From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 2:37 PM Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC? ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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Yes, I agree, but my point was that the evolutionary response - get rid of eyes altogether - has occurred in countless isolated environments all over the world. To me that didn't seem like random mutations. Dave's explanation helped me understand that I was probably looking at it wrong, i.e. the "evolution" of eyeless organisms makes perfect sense precisely because of what you and Dave have pointed out. Anyway, thanks all for the help. See, I was right - you really are a lot of smart people. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) Kim, My feeling is that eyes are a hindrance in a completely dark environment, because they are large, vulnerable blobs that easily become infected if damaged -- yet they do no good at all. So the loss of eyes would be an evolutionary advantage, and natural selection follows its usual course. -- Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:
From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 2:37 PM Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC? ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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My favorite author on the subject is Stephen Gould. He wrote an article about how easily things can be "switched off". It seems that chickens don't have teeth but they have all the genetic information for their development with the absense of one emzyme needed during development. If chicken embryos are treated with this emzyme during a particular point in their development, the embryo starts to develop enamel. A spider in a cave might easily loose the ability to develop eyes from a single point mutation in the early growth stage, and a poplulation of blind spiders might easily develop offspring that mutate back to the origial sighted state. I suggest anyone interested in the subject look up the writing of Stephen J. Gould. DT
participants (9)
-
daniel turner -
Dave Gary -
Don J. Colton -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Joe Bauman -
Kim -
M Wilson -
sfisher01＠comcast.net -
stormcrow60＠xmission.com