Re: Tooele racetrack
Some people I've spoken to seem to feel that the racing itself shouldn't pose too much of a problem, most events will be over before midnight, but Guy made a good point about the traffic going home, also the facility will be used for concerts and other events on non-race nights and these events may cause the biggest problems from a light pollution standpoint because individually they are "one-time only" events and can more easily get a variance or waiver for the event.
From experience I've found that full-cut-off shielding has a marginal effect when the source is massive and very close. Also paved surfaces reflect much more than turf or planted ground. Perhaps a little activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
From: diveboss@xmission.com To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:29:43 -0700 Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Tooele racetrack
I don't think the 'light pollution ordinance' will have any effect on the glare from all the traffic. Not to mention all the dust in the atmosphere. Maybe now would be a good time to drop him a note to let him know that there is an observatory in the area and what effect the proposed plan might have on it's operation.
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When putting together a plan to develope an area that is virgin, or otherwise undeveloped, aren't the developers required to perform some type of environmental impact study? Aren't public hearings the rule for big commercial projects? I have heard that WalMart is planning on building a huge warehouse complex in Tooele County. Any ideas where that is going to be placed? It might not hurt to get 'way out' ahead of this looming project and get some media coverage of our concerns. Maybe even do a 'premptive strike' and having the SPOC dedication ahead of schedule to get the word out. If all else fails, say the word. I've got some old frozen 'snail darter' looking things kicking around here somewhere. We can get Patrick to fly over the area while tossing them out of the planes window.. ;) I wonder what kind of a crater a frozen chunk of fish would leave on the desert floor??? Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>: Perhaps a little
activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
I don't know if they would care, but maybe SUWA would take an interest in this. After all, it is a major environmental concern. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: diveboss@xmission.com<mailto:diveboss@xmission.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Tooele racetrack When putting together a plan to develope an area that is virgin, or otherwise undeveloped, aren't the developers required to perform some type of environmental impact study? Aren't public hearings the rule for big commercial projects? I have heard that WalMart is planning on building a huge warehouse complex in Tooele County. Any ideas where that is going to be placed? It might not hurt to get 'way out' ahead of this looming project and get some media coverage of our concerns. Maybe even do a 'premptive strike' and having the SPOC dedication ahead of schedule to get the word out. If all else fails, say the word. I've got some old frozen 'snail darter' looking things kicking around here somewhere. We can get Patrick to fly over the area while tossing them out of the planes window.. ;) I wonder what kind of a crater a frozen chunk of fish would leave on the desert floor??? Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com<mailto:chuckhards@yahoo.com>>: Perhaps a little
activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
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Wait a minute! You are not ~seriously~ suggesting that we play those same nasty underhanded liberal Sierra Club, eco-terrorist type games that those damn commie liberals play, are you? Jo, A lifelong "sierra club damn commie liberal" At 10:55 AM 12/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
When putting together a plan to develope an area that is virgin, or otherwise undeveloped, aren't the developers required to perform some type of environmental impact study? Aren't public hearings the rule for big commercial projects?
I have heard that WalMart is planning on building a huge warehouse complex in Tooele County. Any ideas where that is going to be placed?
It might not hurt to get 'way out' ahead of this looming project and get some media coverage of our concerns. Maybe even do a 'premptive strike' and having the SPOC dedication ahead of schedule to get the word out.
If all else fails, say the word. I've got some old frozen 'snail darter' looking things kicking around here somewhere. We can get Patrick to fly over the area while tossing them out of the planes window.. ;) I wonder what kind of a crater a frozen chunk of fish would leave on the desert floor???
Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
Perhaps a little
activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
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No, I was considering hiring it done... Quoting Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com>:
Wait a minute! You are not ~seriously~ suggesting that we play those same nasty underhanded liberal Sierra Club, eco-terrorist type games that those damn commie liberals play, are you?
Jo, A lifelong "sierra club damn commie liberal"
At 10:55 AM 12/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
When putting together a plan to develope an area that is virgin, or otherwise undeveloped, aren't the developers required to perform some type of environmental impact study? Aren't public hearings the rule for big commercial projects?
I have heard that WalMart is planning on building a huge warehouse complex in Tooele County. Any ideas where that is going to be placed?
It might not hurt to get 'way out' ahead of this looming project and get some media coverage of our concerns. Maybe even do a 'premptive strike' and having the SPOC dedication ahead of schedule to get the word out.
If all else fails, say the word. I've got some old frozen 'snail darter' looking things kicking around here somewhere. We can get Patrick to fly over the area while tossing them out of the planes window.. ;) I wonder what kind of a crater a frozen chunk of fish would leave on the desert floor???
Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
Perhaps a little
activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
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Hmmm, What's your budget? Jo, (who's looking at her Christmas bills :)...) At 01:09 PM 12/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
No, I was considering hiring it done...
Quoting Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com>:
Wait a minute! You are not ~seriously~ suggesting that we play those same nasty underhanded liberal Sierra Club, eco-terrorist type games that those damn commie liberals play, are you?
Jo, A lifelong "sierra club damn commie liberal"
At 10:55 AM 12/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
When putting together a plan to develope an area that is virgin, or otherwise undeveloped, aren't the developers required to perform some type of environmental impact study? Aren't public hearings the rule for big commercial projects?
I have heard that WalMart is planning on building a huge warehouse complex in Tooele County. Any ideas where that is going to be placed?
It might not hurt to get 'way out' ahead of this looming project and get some media coverage of our concerns. Maybe even do a 'premptive strike' and having the SPOC dedication ahead of schedule to get the word out.
If all else fails, say the word. I've got some old frozen 'snail darter' looking things kicking around here somewhere. We can get Patrick to fly over the area while tossing them out of the planes window.. ;) I wonder what kind of a crater a frozen chunk of fish would leave on the desert floor???
Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
Perhaps a little
activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
A 6 pack of beer and I may throw in a bucket of chicken... Interested? Guy, (who is headed out the door with his oil spewing chain saw to go cut down a Christmas tree...) Quoting Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com>:
Hmmm,
What's your budget?
Jo, (who's looking at her Christmas bills :)...)
At 01:09 PM 12/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
No, I was considering hiring it done...
Quoting Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com>:
Wait a minute! You are not ~seriously~ suggesting that we play those same nasty underhanded liberal Sierra Club, eco-terrorist type games that those damn commie liberals play, are you?
Jo, A lifelong "sierra club damn commie liberal"
At 10:55 AM 12/13/2004 -0700, you wrote:
When putting together a plan to develope an area that is virgin, or otherwise undeveloped, aren't the developers required to perform some type of environmental impact study? Aren't public hearings the rule for big commercial projects?
I have heard that WalMart is planning on building a huge warehouse complex in Tooele County. Any ideas where that is going to be placed?
It might not hurt to get 'way out' ahead of this looming project and get some media coverage of our concerns. Maybe even do a 'premptive strike' and having the SPOC dedication ahead of schedule to get the word out.
If all else fails, say the word. I've got some old frozen 'snail darter' looking things kicking around here somewhere. We can get Patrick to fly over the area while tossing them out of the planes window.. ;) I wonder what kind of a crater a frozen chunk of fish would leave on the desert floor???
Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
Perhaps a little
activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
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<<"Perhaps a little activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.">> We should find out all of the details we can. Will there be public discolsure of the detail plans? When? Will there be an opportunity for public input. I agree with the idea that we should be involved and get as much ahead of this as we can. Any volunbteers for a committee? Siegfried Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
Some people I've spoken to seem to feel that the racing itself shouldn't pose too much of a problem, most events will be over before midnight, but Guy made a good point about the traffic going home, also the facility will be used for concerts and other events on non-race nights and these events may cause the biggest problems from a light pollution standpoint because individually they are "one-time only" events and can more easily get a variance or waiver for the event.
From experience I've found that full-cut-off shielding has a marginal effect when the source is massive and very close. Also paved surfaces reflect much more than turf or planted ground. Perhaps a little activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
From: diveboss@xmission.com To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:29:43 -0700 Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Tooele racetrack
I don't think the 'light pollution ordinance' will have any effect on the glare from all the traffic. Not to mention all the dust in the atmosphere. Maybe now would be a good time to drop him a note to let him know that there is an observatory in the area and what effect the proposed plan might have on it's operation.
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Hey boss, feel free to include me in the "if all else fails" committee... Quoting ziggy943@xmission.com:
<<"Perhaps a little activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.">>
We should find out all of the details we can. Will there be public discolsure of the detail plans? When? Will there be an opportunity for public input. I agree with the idea that we should be involved and get as much ahead of this as we can.
Any volunbteers for a committee?
Siegfried
Quoting Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com>:
Some people I've spoken to seem to feel that the racing itself shouldn't pose too much of a problem, most events will be over before midnight, but Guy made a good point about the traffic going home, also the facility will be used for concerts and other events on non-race nights and these events may cause the biggest problems from a light pollution standpoint because individually they are "one-time only" events and can more easily get a variance or waiver for the event.
From experience I've found that full-cut-off shielding has a marginal effect when the source is massive and very close. Also paved surfaces reflect much more than turf or planted ground. Perhaps a little activism might not be out-of-hand in this instance.
From: diveboss@xmission.com To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:29:43 -0700 Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Tooele racetrack
I don't think the 'light pollution ordinance' will have any effect on the glare from all the traffic. Not to mention all the dust in the atmosphere. Maybe now would be a good time to drop him a note to let him know that there is an observatory in the area and what effect the proposed plan might have on it's operation.
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We should find out all of the details we can. Will there be public disclosure of the detail plans? When? Will there be an opportunity for public input. I agree with the idea that we should be involved and get as much ahead of this as we can.
Any volunbteers for a committee?
Depending on time commitment, I might be able to help out. Don't know for sure. We could probably get some support and perhaps learn some effective methods from the International Dark Sky Association (www.darksky.org). There is a section in Park City (anybody know Don Brown & Anthony Arrigo?). Those of us in the Cottonwood area are also likely to have a fight with Sandy about the blasted Wal-Mart they're going to put in the gravel pit). It's probably important to learn useful tools, since fights like this are likely to be quite protracted. Larry Miller can easily afford to hire a lawyer and a lighting 'expert' to be at every single related meeting. In general, the guys with the money know they're fighting volunteers and they know how to wear them down. I'll have some other comments in response to Chuck Hards' post. Michael
I've met them both. Don and Anthony are good people. We do need to bring to the attention of the powers that be the purpose of the light poluution ordinances and push as hard as we can to preserve as much of the dark sky as we can. Kim, I think I'm hearing an undertone of willingness to be involved, at least to see how far we can make an impact. Should an organizational meeting be held? Who has the most information on what is going on. How can we best get information? Siegfried ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Carnes" <moogiebird@earthlink.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Tooele racetrack
We should find out all of the details we can. Will there be public disclosure of the detail plans? When? Will there be an opportunity for public input. I agree with the idea that we should be involved and get as much ahead of this as we can.
Any volunbteers for a committee?
Depending on time commitment, I might be able to help out. Don't know for sure. We could probably get some support and perhaps learn some effective methods from the International Dark Sky Association (www.darksky.org). There is a section in Park City (anybody know Don Brown & Anthony Arrigo?). Those of us in the Cottonwood area are also likely to have a fight with Sandy about the blasted Wal-Mart they're going to put in the gravel pit). It's probably important to learn useful tools, since fights like this are likely to be quite protracted. Larry Miller can easily afford to hire a lawyer and a lighting 'expert' to be at every single related meeting. In general, the guys with the money know they're fighting volunteers and they know how to wear them down.
I'll have some other comments in response to Chuck Hards' post.
Michael _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
I do agree with Siegfried's comments. My experience as of late in trying to put some brakes on Wal-Mart development has proven very un-fruitful (Sandy Gravel Pit Rezoning) but I'll be willing to bang my head some more and help out where I can. One thing that I have noticed in the hearings etc. that I've attended is probably worth bring up. Folks from out of town that are worried about their recreational activities really don't seem to carry much if any sway with local government officials. People that pay taxes and vote in their district are much more likely to at least be heard. It might be well for us to involve as many Tooele County residents as possible. (Although I have Tooele roots they have been transplanted to Sandy) Ivo Stutznegger --- Siegfried Jachmann <ziggy943@xmission.com> wrote:
I've met them both. Don and Anthony are good people.
We do need to bring to the attention of the powers that be the purpose of the light poluution ordinances and push as hard as we can to preserve as much of the dark sky as we can.
Kim, I think I'm hearing an undertone of willingness to be involved, at least to see how far we can make an impact. Should an organizational meeting be held? Who has the most information on what is going on. How can we best get information?
Siegfried
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Carnes" <moogiebird@earthlink.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Tooele racetrack
We should find out all of the details we can.
Will there be public
disclosure of the detail plans? When? Will there be an opportunity for public input. I agree with the idea that we should be involved and get as much ahead of this as we can.
Any volunbteers for a committee?
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Yes, I would be willing to help. One thing in our favor is that existing ordinances, while often ignored, are still good leverage - I'm thinking legal action. However, as already pointed out, Tooele County residents (Patrick,? Bruce? others?) really need to be involved. Our presence as owners of some substantial property, i.e. buildings and improvements, helps. BTW, have we ever had the buildings and scopes appraised? When the new scope and refractor building are complete, would $300K be a reasonable estimate? Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Siegfried Jachmann<mailto:ziggy943@xmission.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Re: Tooele racetrack Kim, I think I'm hearing an undertone of willingness to be involved, at least to see how far we can make an impact. Should an organizational meeting be held? Who has the most information on what is going on. How can we best get information? Siegfried
participants (8)
-
Chuck Hards -
diveboss＠xmission.com -
Ivo Stutznegger -
Josephine Grahn -
Kim Hyatt -
Michael Carnes -
Siegfried Jachmann -
ziggy943＠xmission.com