I may be publishing it on the web. Why? Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: request for information re: Mormon astronomy (Kim) 2. request for information re: Mormon astronomy (Wayne Sumner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:01:16 -0700 From: "Kim" <kimharch@cut.net> To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon astronomy Message-ID: <E1PSCiQ-00044E-85@mx03.mta.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Garrard, For what purpose would this information be used, i.e. is this strictly for scholarly purposes and/or where would this be published?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of garrard55@xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 10:56 AM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon astronomy
I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly at garrard55@xmission.com. Thanks.
Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: evolution (erikhansen@thebluezone.net) 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) (erikhansen@thebluezone.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution Message-ID: <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
There is much about evolution that is not understood, that Darwin did not understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it. It is a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the human race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the parent, they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated it. Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) then we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have become more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it is capable of.
The beauty of science is that theories are always open to modification.
It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but scientific thought often has in the past.
Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. Understanding
evolution is vital to understanding biology
Sincerely, Gary Vardon The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to your greater success. GO to PublishAmerica.com Consulting For Profit is also available. Learn how to make money as a consultant.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) Message-ID: <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the universe is older than we believe. Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the universe is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material would have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it as it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the notion we live in closed universe.
There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to have evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can change in hours. The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up from virtually nothing. How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. It always get to question: How did this all begin?
Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not
evolution) and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a closed system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you start looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic proteins cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. As Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single cell forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going through a junkyard and creating a 747".
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious person I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and humankind's role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book of Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural selection/evolution - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than the stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical.
I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be jolly?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise.
Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC?
;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. ???I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 43 **********************************************
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:35:27 -0700 From: "Wayne Sumner" <wsumner@dsdmail.net> To: <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon astronomy Message-ID: <4D0604FF020000F600067A68@GW-IA2.dsdmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
As a lifelong Mormon and amateur astronomer, I've heard "Mormon" opinions ranging from kooky to conventional. To characterize anyone's astronomical perceptions as "Mormon" or "Catholic" or "Muslim" seems like stereotyping to me. While I have several books on "Mormon" astronomy, they are strictly their authors' opinions. Except for the idea that the heavens are God's creations and that this was known anciently, I'm not aware of any official Mormon astronomy positions. Thanks,
Wayne A. Sumner Astronomy/Engineering Teacher Boy's Tennis Coach Northridge High School Davis School District (801) 402-8610
<garrard55@xmission.com> 12/13/2010 10:56 AM >>> I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the
Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly
at garrard55@xmission.com. Thanks.
Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at utah-astronomy-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Utah-Astronomy digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: evolution (erikhansen@thebluezone.net) 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) (erikhansen@thebluezone.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution Message-ID: <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
There is much about evolution that is not understood, that Darwin
did not
understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it. It is a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the human race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the parent, they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated it. Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) then we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have become more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it is capable of.
The beauty of science is that theories are always open to modification.
It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but scientific thought often has in the past.
Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. Understanding
evolution is vital to understanding biology
Sincerely, Gary Vardon The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to your greater success. GO to PublishAmerica.com Consulting For Profit is also available. Learn how to make money as a consultant.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) Message-ID: <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the universe is older than we believe. Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the universe is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material would have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it as it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the notion we live in closed universe.
There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to have evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can change in hours. The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up from virtually nothing. How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. It always get to question: How did this all begin?
Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not
evolution) and the Big Bang. Its main premise is that the information in a closed system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid. When you start looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic proteins cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. As Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single cell forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going through a junkyard and creating a 747".
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious person I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and humankind's role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book of Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural selection/evolution - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than the stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical.
I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be jolly?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com
[mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On
Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise.
Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC?
;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at least we don't get the inversions.)
The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't mind, but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have thoughts that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about creatures that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no eyes. There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. The interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had any connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the geography too great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary science is that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My thought is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on extraordinary) that similar or identical species without contact with one another would experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical outcomes, i.e. new species with no eyes.
I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't this present some significant problems for evolutionary theory?
I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts about this.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> wrote:
From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM Joe, ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we find that other nations have attained space programs as effective as ours. These are governments... not private enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... something the federal government did forty one years ago. So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal government to head the space program, and expand both manned space flight and robotic space exploration. ???I believe that within the next ten years, the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not either.
Jon
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