Tyler, I have immense respect for you and I don't doubt the integrity of scientists you know. But the fact remains that the computer models that are the basis for the entire movement to blame humans for global warming are hideously botched. The institution that gave credibility to that model and the position blaming humans is sullied beyond repair. We need to understand the dynamics of the hysteria, and I think it includes faked results, bad data, a messed-up computer code, intimidation and suppression of information, and apparently some outright fabrication to make the predictions come out the way these people think they are supposed to. It's not as simple as saying this guy or that institution has integrity. What is important here is the analysis of the research and the validity of the numbers the analyzers are cranking into their crazy computer code. The East Anglians are the basis for almost all of the predictions, the basis for the Copenhagen Report, the basis for the EPA's position. If their work is faked, we need to know that and the reevaluate. We can't simply say, well, Bob Jones is a good guy and conducts good research. We have to ask, who is using the research data to get results? Please, please read the CBS correspondent's blog and then tell me if you think everything is just fine with East Anglia. Tell me if they had any reason to hide information. The blog is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/taking_liberties/entry5761180.shtml Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Tyler Allred <tylerallred@earthlink.net> wrote: From: Tyler Allred <tylerallred@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 3:12 PM Hello All, I would like to point out that those exact economic arguments were in play when the U.S. was discussing the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and just about every other piece of environmental legislation in recent history. Looking back, they seem like empty arguments. None of those pieces of legislation have resulted in the collapse of our economy. I, for one, am really glad that people acted then and I hope they act responsibly now. I agree that other environmental issues may suffer if too much money is spent on any single problem. I continually hear the argument that the amount of greenhouse gases that come from human activities is small when compared to natural sources (volcanoes etc.), and that is true, but a small amount can make a HUGE difference. Consider a flood... (my own field of expertise) the last 5% of water in the flood may be small when compared to the total, but it can make the difference between a harmless flood and one that overtops a dike and causes devastation. By the same token, I think that the "extra" that we are adding might make the difference for melting the ice caps (for example), and it makes good sense to take reasonable actions to head off a possible catastrophe. I don't really see a down side to reducing emissions responsibly... do you? I am also amazed at the somewhat venomous tone that frequently comes from those that think the whole global warming thing is a "conspiracy". I have known and worked with many climate researchers, including several at NOAA in Boulder, Colorado. I know for a fact that they are not involved in any conspiracy. They are truly brilliant people doing first-rate research. I am a published scientist, but I am not really qualified to argue for or against human-induced climate change. But, I can speak to the integrity of many excellent researchers who are far better qualified to comment than most on this list (or any other list for that matter), although everyone is entitled to an opinion. We have been enjoying a period of relatively low solar activity. It will be interesting to see what happens when things fire up a little. That is my 2-cents worth. Cheers, Tyler _____________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:42 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate Exactly what I have thought and said for a long time. There can be disastrous consequence for real people if ill-conceived taxes are passed to reverse a natural change. How many people are struggling to survive right now? How many families are fighting to pay for college educations? How many brilliant young minds will be stuck behind a shop counter because the families need their income? Stick some big taxes on gasoline in the interest of supposedly slowing climate change, and we all pay much more for everything -- and that will hurt. Is it worthwhile to risk a deep worldwide depression on some idea that may be based on faulty assumptions? Where is the cost-benefit analysis of fighting climate change? We have many terrible environmental problems that deserve our attention much more than tilting at the climate windmill. Much of the Pacific is becoming a wasteland because of hazardous plastic waste that has accumulated there: let's clean it up. Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> wrote: From: Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 9:38 AM This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument. Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories. As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com