November 2003 - Utah-Astronomy - mailman.xmission.com

Re: [Utah-astronomy] Seeing Formula
by Brent Watson 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

Jim, Don't be too worried about deciding beforehand whether something is visible or not. Try for it and you'll find you're successful more often than not. One thing that helps is to use moderate magnification, averted vision, and bump the tube slightly while you're looking. All of these things mixed with that long focus reflector will help these thing be detected. You'll be elated when they do, and only mildly frustrated when they don't. When they don't try later, or suck on a little oxygen to help. Brent --- Jim Gibson <xajax99(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Thank you all for your comments. Being new, I am > just going through a stage right now. I just want to > see stuff. > > Brent and Chuck, like you I do believe that the > hunt is as important as the kill. I get a lot of > enjoyment out of that. I admire people that have > that talent, like Mike Bailey. It seems like he can > look at a chart and find anything. Dave Bennett > doesnt even need to look at a chart and he can find > anything. > > My dilemma comes from the fact that I just went > through my Sky Atlas 2000 (which doesnt show > everything) and made a list of every object (other > than stars, and only some doubles) for 17 > constellations now in the sky totaling 370 objects. > I am wondering how I can get through it all. I am > looking for a way to narrow my list down to those > items that I have a shot at seeing before they pass > over or before I pass over which ever comes first. > Items that are listed as magnitude 13+ I listed but > will probably put off for another day when I go > through another stage. Brent, in you 40+ years of > observing, you have no doubt been through a few > stages. Some of these fevers only time and > experience can cure. But, your kind Tutelage may > redirect my fever to more produtive paths. > > Maybe I should just stick to the Hershel 400 or some > list like that for now. > > It was an education in itself just looking the items > up in the NGC catalog and in Burnhams. You have to > have something to do on a snowy day. > > Jim > > > Brent Watson <brentjwatson(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > "...since I have gotten into astronomy I have never > seen soo many get soo excited over soo little." > > To many of us the hunt is as important as the kill. > Sometimes even more so. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard> _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] H-400
by UTAHDEB＠aol.com 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

No offense taken Kim. I did the Herschel 400 list once for a certificate but I'm not going after any more certificates or pins that will collect dust. I started the Double Star list but I quit doing the drawings because it was too much work. I've still pretty much completed the the Double Star list and found some interesting doubles I want to go back to and reobserve. I did it for my own enjoyment and in the process, I learned the sky a little better tracking down these doubles. I also did it because it was something different. Like Rich said, it beats watching TV. Most of the time, the moon was out so it didn't conflict with my deep sky objects. Now I have a few lists on planetary nebulae or seasonal favorites. I try to put a few new and challenging targets into my observing program to keep my hobby fresh and new. For example, do you remember when I found that planetary nebula in Fornax, NGC 1360 at Jerry Foote's house last year? This is definitely an object I want to come back to because I've added it to my list of favorites. Other objects like Sir Patrick Moore's Cave Nebula, I have no intention of going back to observe it. I have also found it rewarding to go outside the NGC and M objects and track down Abell, Sharpless, and Minkowski objects. Most of these objects require a 12.5" scope or larger but there are exceptions. It all depends on optics, sky darkness, and the observer's experience. I like to challenge my eyes and equipment but I do this for my own enjoyment. When I've had enough retinal torture I go back to my familiar favorite objects. I like to observe a variety of objects in a night. In a nutshell, my lists serve as a guide, not a strict observing program. Debbie

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] H-400
by Kim Hyatt 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

Well, I don't want to start or add to a debate here, but I do agree there are benefits to recording something of one's experience. I got much more this year out of observing Mars precisely because I did some sketches at the eyepiece. That said, I'm still not convinced to try and collect badges. ;) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Tenney [mailto:retenney@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 1:09 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] H-400 Kim, Brent, no offense taken at all. I agree that doing this strictly for the sake of a certificate is rather silly. My personal reasons are two-fold: 1) Observe more of what's out there. Not having a list or set of objectives I'm working towards not only tends to more stagnant observing sessions, reviewing the same old objects over and over, but I've discovered there are A LOT of very cool objects on this list that I likely would never have pursued otherwise. Like Jim, I'm starting to feel my age; my eyes aren't getting any sharper, and I'd like to experience as much of the deep sky as possible in the years remaining (I have to add for my back's sake too that my scope isn't getting any lighter!). Having this objective definitely has encouraged me to head out and observe when I might otherwise stay home because "it's too cold and I'm too tired", etc. I've been glad to have the challenge to help motivate me when I might otherwise find myself wasting time in front of the TV instead (been there, done that). 2) Following the rules and using a formal observing log, I've found that it has forced me to be a better observer, paying more attention to detail. Making a sketch at the eyepiece, recording thoughts, impressions, and descriptive text adds to the enjoyment, rather than detract from it, especially as I go back later and review some of the previous observations. It's also helped me confirm the identity of some of the more obscure objects when I wasn't sure I was looking at the right thing when in crowded celestial neighborhoods, and was later able to verify appearances and proximity in google searches, etc. There's definitely something to the old saying that work is what life is all about -- MEANINGFUL work that is; its fruits are not only good for building character (and paying bills), they're also good for the soul... $.02 back at ya! -Rich --- Kim Hyatt <khyatt(a)smithlayton.com> wrote: > Sorry folks, have to add a bit more... > > I just connected to the link Rich provided and found > the following link to > "Herschel 400 Club - More Information and Rules" > (bold text mine): > http://www.astroleague.org/al/obsclubs/herschel/her400cl.html. > I'm reminded > of a line from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: > "Rules?! In a knife > fight?" So, I ask, "Rules? to observe the universe?" > > Again, no offense is meant to anyone who is into the > clubs, rules and > certificate stuff... > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] H-400
by Kim Hyatt 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

Sorry folks, have to add a bit more... I just connected to the link Rich provided and found the following link to "Herschel 400 Club - More Information and Rules" (bold text mine): http://www.astroleague.org/al/obsclubs/herschel/her400cl.html. I'm reminded of a line from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: "Rules?! In a knife fight?" So, I ask, "Rules? to observe the universe?" Again, no offense is meant to anyone who is into the clubs, rules and certificate stuff...

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] H-400
by Kim Hyatt 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

I have to add my $0.02: I agree with Brent. Observing lists, certificates, etc. all detract from the enjoyment of the hobby for me. Reminds me a lot of Boy Scouts. I didn't need to be rewarded with a badge to encourage me to do the things a liked (so I never became an Eagle Scout, much to the chagrin of my father). Observing is good enough for me when I pick out a few things from an atlas, some of which I know I may not be able to see, and just search. The things I stumble across on the way are often as much a reward as finding the object I started out to find. No offense meant to Rich, Debbie and others, but I've never understood the attraction of working for a certificate from the AL for observing all the objects on a given list. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Watson [mailto:brentjwatson@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:02 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] H-400 Rich, You make this sound too much like work. FOR ME, astronomy is more enjoyable when I do not over analyze, or make sure I see this before that. Just take it easy and se what you can when you can. Just my opinion. Brent --- Richard Tenney <retenney(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Jim, > > The Astronomical League's Herschel 400 is very > doable > with your scope. In fact, the authors claim that > "you > need at least a 6-inch scope", but to see all that > with 6 inches of aperture from my experience so far > would require nearly ideal seeing conditions for > some > of the objects on the list. Anyway, I'm enjoying > the > journey very much, and suspect it will likely keep > me > busy for a couple more years at least. > > And, if I ever do get through it, they've come up > with > the Herschel-II, yet another 400 objects, a bit more > of a challenge. > > After that, there's always the PK, Minkowski and > Abell > objects... > > I'm there! > > By the way, have you already worked your way through > all the M-objects? If not, I would at least do that > first. > > Here's the H-400 link: > http://www.astroleague.org/al/obsclubs/herschel/hers400.html > > I've created a decent observing log template (MS > Word > or WordPerfect) if you are interested... > > -Rich > > --- Jim Gibson <xajax99(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Thank you all for your comments. Being new, I am > > just going through a stage right now. I just want > to > > see stuff. > > > > Brent and Chuck, like you I do believe that the > > hunt is as important as the kill. I get a lot of > > enjoyment out of that. I admire people that have > > that talent, like Mike Bailey. It seems like he > can > > look at a chart and find anything. Dave Bennett > > doesnt even need to look at a chart and he can > find > > anything. > > > > My dilemma comes from the fact that I just went > > through my Sky Atlas 2000 (which doesnt show > > everything) and made a list of every object (other > > than stars, and only some doubles) for 17 > > constellations now in the sky totaling 370 > objects. > > I am wondering how I can get through it all. I am > > looking for a way to narrow my list down to those > > items that I have a shot at seeing before they > pass > > over or before I pass over which ever comes first. > > Items that are listed as magnitude 13+ I listed > but > > will probably put off for another day when I go > > through another stage. Brent, in you 40+ years of > > observing, you have no doubt been through a few > > stages. Some of these fevers only time and > > experience can cure. But, your kind Tutelage may > > redirect my fever to more produtive paths. > > > > Maybe I should just stick to the Hershel 400 or > some > > list like that for now. > > > > It was an education in itself just looking the > items > > up in the NGC catalog and in Burnhams. You have to > > have something to do on a snowy day. > > > > Jim > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy

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H-400
by Richard Tenney 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

Jim, The Astronomical League's Herschel 400 is very doable with your scope. In fact, the authors claim that "you need at least a 6-inch scope", but to see all that with 6 inches of aperture from my experience so far would require nearly ideal seeing conditions for some of the objects on the list. Anyway, I'm enjoying the journey very much, and suspect it will likely keep me busy for a couple more years at least. And, if I ever do get through it, they've come up with the Herschel-II, yet another 400 objects, a bit more of a challenge. After that, there's always the PK, Minkowski and Abell objects... I'm there! By the way, have you already worked your way through all the M-objects? If not, I would at least do that first. Here's the H-400 link: http://www.astroleague.org/al/obsclubs/herschel/hers400.html I've created a decent observing log template (MS Word or WordPerfect) if you are interested... -Rich --- Jim Gibson <xajax99(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Thank you all for your comments. Being new, I am > just going through a stage right now. I just want to > see stuff. > > Brent and Chuck, like you I do believe that the > hunt is as important as the kill. I get a lot of > enjoyment out of that. I admire people that have > that talent, like Mike Bailey. It seems like he can > look at a chart and find anything. Dave Bennett > doesnt even need to look at a chart and he can find > anything. > > My dilemma comes from the fact that I just went > through my Sky Atlas 2000 (which doesnt show > everything) and made a list of every object (other > than stars, and only some doubles) for 17 > constellations now in the sky totaling 370 objects. > I am wondering how I can get through it all. I am > looking for a way to narrow my list down to those > items that I have a shot at seeing before they pass > over or before I pass over which ever comes first. > Items that are listed as magnitude 13+ I listed but > will probably put off for another day when I go > through another stage. Brent, in you 40+ years of > observing, you have no doubt been through a few > stages. Some of these fevers only time and > experience can cure. But, your kind Tutelage may > redirect my fever to more produtive paths. > > Maybe I should just stick to the Hershel 400 or some > list like that for now. > > It was an education in itself just looking the items > up in the NGC catalog and in Burnhams. You have to > have something to do on a snowy day. > > Jim __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] H-400
by Griffin Louis A Civ OO-ALC/MAKGBA 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

Rich, I would like the observing log template file, finally got the 20 incher together and collimated ( with the help of Lee Preist and his Glatter laser from OAS)now the weather.... send the file to my Louis.Griffin(a)hill.af.mil adress please... -----Original Message----- From: Richard Tenney [mailto:retenney@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:44 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] H-400 Jim, The Astronomical League's Herschel 400 is very doable with your scope. In fact, the authors claim that "you need at least a 6-inch scope", but to see all that with 6 inches of aperture from my experience so far would require nearly ideal seeing conditions for some of the objects on the list. Anyway, I'm enjoying the journey very much, and suspect it will likely keep me busy for a couple more years at least. And, if I ever do get through it, they've come up with the Herschel-II, yet another 400 objects, a bit more of a challenge. After that, there's always the PK, Minkowski and Abell objects... I'm there! By the way, have you already worked your way through all the M-objects? If not, I would at least do that first. Here's the H-400 link: http://www.astroleague.org/al/obsclubs/herschel/hers400.html I've created a decent observing log template (MS Word or WordPerfect) if you are interested... -Rich --- Jim Gibson <xajax99(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Thank you all for your comments. Being new, I am > just going through a stage right now. I just want to > see stuff. > > Brent and Chuck, like you I do believe that the > hunt is as important as the kill. I get a lot of > enjoyment out of that. I admire people that have > that talent, like Mike Bailey. It seems like he can > look at a chart and find anything. Dave Bennett > doesnt even need to look at a chart and he can find > anything. > > My dilemma comes from the fact that I just went > through my Sky Atlas 2000 (which doesnt show > everything) and made a list of every object (other > than stars, and only some doubles) for 17 > constellations now in the sky totaling 370 objects. > I am wondering how I can get through it all. I am > looking for a way to narrow my list down to those > items that I have a shot at seeing before they pass > over or before I pass over which ever comes first. > Items that are listed as magnitude 13+ I listed but > will probably put off for another day when I go > through another stage. Brent, in you 40+ years of > observing, you have no doubt been through a few > stages. Some of these fevers only time and > experience can cure. But, your kind Tutelage may > redirect my fever to more produtive paths. > > Maybe I should just stick to the Hershel 400 or some > list like that for now. > > It was an education in itself just looking the items > up in the NGC catalog and in Burnhams. You have to > have something to do on a snowy day. > > Jim __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy

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Elegant Universe - part 3
by Dale Hooper 04 Nov '03

04 Nov '03

7pm tonight - KUED - Elegant Universe - Welcome to the 11th Dimension (i.e. part 3) 9pm tonight - KUED - Beyond the Moon - Walter Cronkite's visits with scientists and engineers survey the history of deep-space exploration 11pm Thurs - KUED - Elegant Universe - Welcome to the 11th Dimension - repeat

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Seeing Formula
by UTAHDEB＠aol.com 03 Nov '03

03 Nov '03

Dale, I was looking through the Appendix E catalog of deep-sky objects and I noticed the contrast index of some of the galaxies I recently observed about two weeks ago. I observed NGC 1073, NGC 247, and IC 1613 in Cetus. They all were a bit difficult in my mag 6.0 skies because of the low contrast index which ranged from 0.2 to -0.5. NGC 1073 and NGC 247 showed better contrast at Jerry Foote's house last Oct 2002 because the darker skies. It seems skies must be dark and transparent for these lower contrast objects to show better detail. High contrast objects such as M77 and NGC 908 showed up well at my Arizona observing location. Anyway, I thought it was an interesting table. Debbie

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] Seeing Formula
by Dale Hooper 03 Nov '03

03 Nov '03

Chuck, Are you referring to the Roger Clark information when you say "usefulness of tables like these."? If so, I'm rather surprised and suspect that you haven't looked at the information very closely. There is a wealth of info in those "tables", other parts of his website and his book. The website and his book present better ways to be prepared for "the hunt" and how to get the most out of observing "the kill". Its a bit of a disservice to pooh pooh this information just because Clark applies the scientific method to observing. If you aren't referring to the Clark info - then my apologies. Also, I didn't really take it that Brent was referring to the Clark info. > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Hards [mailto:chuckhards@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:22 PM > To: Utah Astronomy > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Seeing Formula > > > I side with Brent on the usefulness of tables like > these. What they seem to do mostly is keep people > from even trying to find certain objects. Remember > that you're just reading someone else's successes and > failures. There are too many variables to assign > absolute visibility factors. > > C. > > --- Brent Watson <brentjwatson(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > "...since I have gotten into astronomy I have never > > seen soo many get soo excited over soo little." > > > > To many of us the hunt is as important as the kill. > > Sometimes even more so. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >

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