We are satisfied with ours as well...We have been using our original TC purchased in 1997 as well as another in 1999 and no major problems, using both Netserver and ARC. I would like to warn you in advance, though, that unless you are willing to purchase an overpriced service contract, 3Com's software upgrade policies are totally asinine. Free for a short period if you purchase the chassis, but that's it. At 01:00 PM 5/8/01 -0700, you wrote:

We've been satisfied with ours. We've found it to be stable. We're under a support contract and have found the technical support to usually be very good to outstanding.

I would like to see more documentation. We're considering attending one of the multi-day training sessions.

Seth

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robbie Wilson" <rwilson@oasisonline.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:54 PM Subject: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions

...

I am currently using pm3's and due to their untimely EOL I am considering a Total Control 1000. How do you like yours? Is it stable? Do users get good connect rates/ have trouble connecting/disconnecting?

Thanks for you time

Charles Kimes, Administrator EagleNet DataCommunications, Inc. St. Marys, GA Administrator@eagnet.com www.kingsbay.net (912) 882-8406 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.

That sounds about right for a 24 hour tech support/hotswap/software policy for a TC 1000 with 2 DSP cards. Note that the price goes by $350 per HyperDSP card in the chassis and you do not have the option to pick and choose which cards are covered and which are not. It's an all-or-nothing deal. With that structure the cost could get to be quite a bit if you had alot of cards. I've heard that some of the bigger ISPs negotiate the price down. I'd be interested in getting feedback from anyone who has attended the 3Com classes on the TC Chassis/HyperArc/HyperDSP cards. I think they're 3 days classes in Chicago and cost about $2,500. Seth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robbie Wilson" <rwilson@oasisonline.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: RE: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions

I was quoted $1400 a year, does that sound right?

-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Charles Kimes Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:24 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions

We are satisfied with ours as well...We have been using our original TC purchased in 1997 as well as another in 1999 and no major problems, using both Netserver and ARC. I would like to warn you in advance, though, that unless you are willing to purchase an overpriced service contract, 3Com's software upgrade policies are totally asinine. Free for a short period if you purchase the chassis, but that's it.

At 01:00 PM 5/8/01 -0700, you wrote:

...

We've been satisfied with ours. We've found it to be stable. We're under a support contract and have found the technical support to usually be very good to outstanding.

I would like to see more documentation. We're considering attending one of the multi-day training sessions.

Seth

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robbie Wilson" <rwilson@oasisonline.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:54 PM Subject: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions

...

I am currently using pm3's and due to their untimely EOL I am considering a Total Control 1000. How do you like yours? Is it stable? Do users get good connect rates/ have trouble connecting/disconnecting?

Thanks for you time

Charles Kimes, Administrator EagleNet DataCommunications, Inc. St. Marys, GA Administrator@eagnet.com www.kingsbay.net (912) 882-8406

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That was one dual span 96 card for 9x5xwhatever -----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Mark Thornton Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:45 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions For how many ports? Mark Thornton San Marcos Internet, Inc. 512-393-5300 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robbie Wilson" <rwilson@oasisonline.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:21 PM Subject: RE: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions

I was quoted $1400 a year, does that sound right?

-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Charles Kimes Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 4:24 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions

We are satisfied with ours as well...We have been using our original TC purchased in 1997 as well as another in 1999 and no major problems, using both Netserver and ARC. I would like to warn you in advance, though, that unless you are willing to purchase an overpriced service contract, 3Com's software upgrade policies are totally asinine. Free for a short period if you purchase the chassis, but that's it.

At 01:00 PM 5/8/01 -0700, you wrote:

...

We've been satisfied with ours. We've found it to be stable. We're under a support contract and have found the technical support to usually be very good to outstanding.

I would like to see more documentation. We're considering attending one of the multi-day training sessions.

Seth

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robbie Wilson" <rwilson@oasisonline.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:54 PM Subject: (usr-tc) Total Control Opinions

...

I am currently using pm3's and due to their untimely EOL I am considering a Total Control 1000. How do you like yours? Is it stable? Do users get good connect rates/ have trouble connecting/disconnecting?

Thanks for you time

Charles Kimes, Administrator EagleNet DataCommunications, Inc. St. Marys, GA Administrator@eagnet.com www.kingsbay.net (912) 882-8406

- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.

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Also sprach Seth Jacobs

We purchased our TC1000 through Source Technologies and the price included a full support contract for 1 year. CommWorks (3Com) has announced that companies other than 3Com (e.g., Source Technologies) will be able to provide 24x7 technical support. Perhaps the cost of support will go down once it's offered by multiple companies.

Where did you see this announcement? -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.

I never got this direct from 3Com either, but... wow, this might actually get me interested in support contracts for the first time. If I could get software-only support from Source Technology at a reasonable price, I probably would... Mike Andrews * mandrews@dcr.net * mandrews@bit0.com * http://www.bit0.com VP, sysadmin, & network guy, Digital Crescent Inc, Frankfort KY Internet access for Frankfort, Lexington, Louisville and surrounding counties www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's Fark. (Or something like that.) On Tue, 8 May 2001, Baron Fujimoto wrote:

On Tue, 8 May 2001, Jeff Mcadams wrote:

: Also sprach Seth Jacobs : >We purchased our TC1000 through Source Technologies and the price : >included a full support contract for 1 year. CommWorks (3Com) has : >announced that companies other than 3Com (e.g., Source Technologies) : >will be able to provide 24x7 technical support. Perhaps the cost of : >support will go down once it's offered by multiple companies. : : Where did you see this announcement?

Here's a copy of the announcement we received via email:

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:26:22 +0500 From: cps_contract_administration@3com.com Subject: URGENT - Action Required regarding 3Com Total Control service contract

Since the announcement of CommWorks Corporation as a wholly owned subsidiary of 3Com Corporation in December, 2000, our service organization has been hard at work to ensure that we continue to provide the highest quality services to our customers. As the result of an extensive review process and suggestions from our customers, we have implemented a number of significant enhancements. Some of the most recent changes include:

* Renaming our service organization to "CommWorks Professional Services" to better reflect our business and capabilities

* Enhancing our professional services portfolio to include a wider array of robust professional service offerings

* Intensive training and reorganization of our technical support center to provide a higher level of expertise and more personalized support

* Redesigned our online support tools and software library to improve the ease of use and quality of information provided

As the next phase in our continuous improvement initiative, CommWorks Professional Services is pleased to announce our new Service Channel Affiliate Program.

Under this new program, we have carefully selected several companies who are committed to providing exceptional support services to become CommWorks Service Channel Affiliates (SCAs). Effective May 1, 2001, we will begin transitioning the delivery of our support services to our SCAs. Please contact one of our SCAs for renewal of your support services contract.

In order to qualify for the program, each Service Channel Affiliate must meet training standards and adhere to strict program requirements to ensure that you receive the highest quality services possible. The SCA of your choice is looking forward to delivering the high quality services you expect from your service affiliate.

After you have renewed your service with an SCA, please visit our website at http://carrier.cso.mw.3com.com/contract/index.cfm?word=TXDEDXVKMLGVTPLQQBRX to notify us of your selection.

Service Channel Affiliates:

Source Technology CommWorks Select Service Channel Affiliate 1380A Main Street Waltham, MA 02451 (888) 765-5758 sales@source-t.com http://www.source-t.com

Solunet CommWorks Select Service Channel Affiliate 1571 Robert J. Conlan Blvd., Suite 110 Palm Bay, FL 32905 (800) 795-2814 sales@solunet.com http://www.solunet.com

CCS Broadband Technologies, Inc CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 5950 Live Oak Parkway, Suite 130 Norcross, GA 30043 (770) 417-1777 broadband@ccstech.com http://www.ccstech.com

NET Source CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 10488 W. Centennial Road Littleton, CO 80127 (888) 653-1326 rasservice@netsource.cc http://www.rasservice.com

Sorensen's Computer Connection, Inc. CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 653 Oak Road Harlan, IA 51537 (888) 464-4425 sales@netscci.net http://www.netscci.com

CommNet Plus CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 6602 E. 75th St., Suite 115 Indianapolis, IN 46250 (800) 845-2981 sales@commnet.com http://www.commnet.com

CommWorks Professional Services is dedicated to continuously improving our service offerings and delivery mechanisms. If you have any questions about this announcement or have suggestions for further improvements, please feel free to contact us toll-free at (866) 977-3266 or send an email to CPS_Contract_Administration@3com.com.

Sincerely,

CommWorks Professional Services

- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.

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Also sprach Mike Andrews

I never got this direct from 3Com either, but... wow, this might actually get me interested in support contracts for the first time. If I could get software-only support from Source Technology at a reasonable price, I probably would...

Yeah...we might be able to get support contracts for a reasonable price now...unless the VARs are saddled with the same policies and Terms and Conditions that Al Huefner stupidly has imposed on us for 3 years now. I'll be getting in touch with CommNet Plus to find out what their situation is with this (been busy so haven't had a chance to yet). Oh...and this makes me look like a prophet! Check out the attachment...some of you on this list may remember this exchange. There are several things in here that make me sound prophetic I think. :) Let's see, we have: 3Com management not paying attention to the usr-tc list and the issues that are raised there, until it becomes a crisis situation...check. Adding layers of beaurocracy when the beaurocracy is half the problem and they should be *removing* them...check. Inadequate access to software updates...check. Lack of communication to customers from 3Com management...check. Premature EOL'ing of a product and woefully inadequate upgrade path for customers...check (was NETServer -> HiPer Arc, now quads to DSPs). Incredibly screwed up support contract Terms and Conditions and policies after years of complaints from people on this list...check. Stock price virtually in the gutter...check. I'll say it again...Al Huefner needs to be fired and the support contract situation needs to be *TOTALLY* rethought from the ground up, and this time actually take into consideration the thoughts of your customers...here's a radical thought...maybe you could even *ASK* them what they think! Oh, that's right, that would actually involved the abililty of 3Com upper management to *COMMUNICATE*, and we all know *that's* not going to happen. :/ To this day, I *STILL* haven't *EVER* received *ANY* communications from *ANYONE* at 3Com other than Tom Goodman and George Ebert regarding any of the issues raised here or in direct email in the past several weeks. Bruce, Irfan, Al...if you don't have the guts to get in touch with me yourselves...at least have a secretary or something give me a call. Right now, all you've done is confirmed that you really don't care about your customers. Maybe I should start CC'ing brokerage houses...I'm sure it would help your stock price oh so much for them to find out about how much customer dissatisfaction there is among customers of this gear. I'll assume that if I don't hear from at least one of you or your offices that you really don't care about us as customers and I'll let the usr-tc list know that and start looking at alternative vendors of Access Server gear. God knows, even with the new trade-up programs, its still almost about the same amount of money for me to totally replace my TC gear with Patton gear, and that's even with fudging on the trade-up program by doing more than 10 sets of quads.

On Tue, 8 May 2001, Baron Fujimoto wrote:

...

Here's a copy of the announcement we received via email:

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:26:22 +0500 From: cps_contract_administration@3com.com Subject: URGENT - Action Required regarding 3Com Total Control service contract

Since the announcement of CommWorks Corporation as a wholly owned subsidiary of 3Com Corporation in December, 2000, our service organization has been hard at work to ensure that we continue to provide the highest quality services to our customers. As the result of an extensive review process and suggestions from our customers, we have implemented a number of significant enhancements. Some of the most recent changes include:

* Renaming our service organization to "CommWorks Professional Services" to better reflect our business and capabilities

* Enhancing our professional services portfolio to include a wider array of robust professional service offerings

* Intensive training and reorganization of our technical support center to provide a higher level of expertise and more personalized support

* Redesigned our online support tools and software library to improve the ease of use and quality of information provided

As the next phase in our continuous improvement initiative, CommWorks Professional Services is pleased to announce our new Service Channel Affiliate Program.

Under this new program, we have carefully selected several companies who are committed to providing exceptional support services to become CommWorks Service Channel Affiliates (SCAs). Effective May 1, 2001, we will begin transitioning the delivery of our support services to our SCAs. Please contact one of our SCAs for renewal of your support services contract.

In order to qualify for the program, each Service Channel Affiliate must meet training standards and adhere to strict program requirements to ensure that you receive the highest quality services possible. The SCA of your choice is looking forward to delivering the high quality services you expect from your service affiliate.

After you have renewed your service with an SCA, please visit our website at http://carrier.cso.mw.3com.com/contract/index.cfm?word=TXDEDXVKMLGVTPLQQBRX to notify us of your selection.

Service Channel Affiliates:

Source Technology CommWorks Select Service Channel Affiliate 1380A Main Street Waltham, MA 02451 (888) 765-5758 sales@source-t.com http://www.source-t.com

Solunet CommWorks Select Service Channel Affiliate 1571 Robert J. Conlan Blvd., Suite 110 Palm Bay, FL 32905 (800) 795-2814 sales@solunet.com http://www.solunet.com

CCS Broadband Technologies, Inc CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 5950 Live Oak Parkway, Suite 130 Norcross, GA 30043 (770) 417-1777 broadband@ccstech.com http://www.ccstech.com

NET Source CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 10488 W. Centennial Road Littleton, CO 80127 (888) 653-1326 rasservice@netsource.cc http://www.rasservice.com

Sorensen's Computer Connection, Inc. CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 653 Oak Road Harlan, IA 51537 (888) 464-4425 sales@netscci.net http://www.netscci.com

CommNet Plus CommWorks Service Channel Affiliate 6602 E. 75th St., Suite 115 Indianapolis, IN 46250 (800) 845-2981 sales@commnet.com http://www.commnet.com

CommWorks Professional Services is dedicated to continuously improving our service offerings and delivery mechanisms. If you have any questions about this announcement or have suggestions for further improvements, please feel free to contact us toll-free at (866) 977-3266 or send an email to CPS_Contract_Administration@3com.com.

Sincerely,

CommWorks Professional Services -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456

From jeffm@iglou.com Tue Oct 12 13:12:31 1999 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:12:31 -0400 From: Jeff Mcadams <jeffm@iglou.com> To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) 2.0.60 HDM Code Message-ID: <19991012131230.A21583@iglou.com> References: <86256808.005E7259.00@mwgate02.mw.3com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <86256808.005E7259.00@mwgate02.mw.3com.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 1144 Lines: 27

Thus spake Todd Keister

ER or Engineering Release Code is only available by calling to Tech Support, and then WE (Tech Support) must get permission to release the code.

Good grief, its getting worse. What's next? Are we going to have to get a note from our mother's to use ER code? Blech.

This is done so that we can document the use of these special codes to see if the fix the specific issue they are supposed address, and also to see if the new fix for one issue causes issues with any other processes in the code or product.

Is it at all possible that 3Com could ever *eliminate* beaurocracy in their processes rather than constantly adding layer upon layer of it?

I hope this helps.

Unfortunately, no, I doubt it really does. :/ Does anyone in upper management at 3Com listen to what we're saying? I sometimes get the distinct impression that they really don't give a crap what we feel. I guess that is progress though...we do have *some* people at 3Com listening to us now...even if they aren't the people making decisions on most of these things. Jeff "getting frustrated with 3Com idiocy again" McAdams

From jeffm@iglou.com Tue Oct 12 14:01:35 1999 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:01:35 -0400 From: Jeff Mcadams <jeffm@iglou.com> To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Bcc: Dean Brooks <dean@iglou.com>, Dannie Gregoire <dannie@iglou.com> Subject: Re: (usr-tc) 2.0.60 HDM Code Message-ID: <19991012140134.A24100@iglou.com> References: <86256808.0060FA72.00@mwgate02.mw.3com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <86256808.0060FA72.00@mwgate02.mw.3com.com> Status: RO Content-Length: 6147 Lines: 104

Thus spake Todd Keister

I think you have missed the point. We don't just want to "Throw Code" at given issues. It may seem like extra steps, and sometimes it is laborious to follow these procedures, but in business, law, and especially in science, if you don't have clearly documented data trails, and reproducible results - then you have not accomplished a darn thing.

No...I didn't miss the point...I understand where you're coming from...*however*. This seems (from my perspective at least) to be a reaction to as you put it "release[ing] code 'willy nilly'". IMO, the fix isn't to put yet another layer of beaurocracy down to track it, the real fix is to have tech support be good enough at what they do, and enough information available to them (I think this second part is the killer) that they can more intelligently use ER code releases as trouble-shooting tools. This is, as you say, intended to provide a fix for those that need it, and feedback on those fixes before they're put into an SR, but putting yet another layer of beaurocracy on this just puts that much more difficulty on us, the customers actually *using* this equipment and code, from being able to make the most from it. Basically, 3Com just added yet one more layer between us, the customers, and the development process of the code, yet one more layer that insulates our feedback from the actual people making decisions about the development of the product(s). Please don't get me wrong, Todd...I'm certainly not trying to take a shot at you, or any other tech support folks. I'm taking a shot at 3Com overall, who's (corporate) reaction to things seems to be to add more beaurocracy to things where there are problems in an effort to fix them...when...at the core, at least a major component of the problems are that there's entirely too much beaurocracy already, and customers are already entirely too isolated from the development effort.

I hope this clarifies my prior statements, and I hope this helps to clarify what could on the surface seem to be another "Stupid Policy" that is actually just a part of the Scientific Method.

Oh, I'm very clear on 3Com's thinking here...some of it even makes sense...that doesn't mean its not "another 'Stupid Policy'" though. ;) My other question still stands though...and this may be one that you, Todd, may not be able to answer, and I can understand that...but does upper management at 3Com really take us seriously? We (the users of tc equipment on this list) have constently, over the years, alerted 3Com to problem after problem, most of which were ignored until they reached epic proportions, resulted in various people threatening lawsuits, resulted in cascades of complaints from the users both on this list and in the totalservice fora. These problems are, almost invariably, not acted upon until it reached a crisis situation at 3Com and consequently took much greater effort to fix than it would have if addressed when it was first mentioned on the list. I will say that 3Com has seemed to become more responsive to actual implementation problems...ie, actually fixing bugs in code...while at the same time making it, in many cases, actually harder for the customer to get ahold of the code that makes the fixes. Security issues are still dealt with in much too slow of a manner. I reported "Yet Another(tm)" SNMP bug in the Total Control platform almost 3 weeks ago now (not yet made public...will be soon), and still haven't gotten any feedback about it. 3 weeks is *way* too long for a bug like this to exist in a known state. There should be an SR release for security issues made immediately...take the last released code...start from that base, and develop a fix for the security hole independently of your other fixes...3Com seems to have a *very* lax attitude concerning security fixes. We've been complaining about support contracts for years now...any progress there? None that I've heard of...indeed, this too has gone in the wrong direction. Used to be that you had to have equal support coverage on each card in a chassis, then you had to have it on each chassis in a location, now you have to have it on all your chassis in all your locations. This should be going the other direction! There are easily accessible serial numbers on each card (shoot, you can even pull them up in a nice clean spreadsheet format via TCM!), why not have support contracts be done on a per-card basis? Again...we here at IgLou specifically have been asking for exactly this for over a year, and the only response we have gotten from *anyone* (other than our sales rep, who agrees with us) has been a call to give us the pricing as it currently exists, they were *totally* unwilling to even *consider* that their support contract structure was sub-optimal. 3Com has *YET* to deal with the NETServer to HiPer Arc upgrade issue. They still are foisting essentially a Bait and Switch tactic on their long-time customers that have NETServer cards. 3Com has known about issues in the NETServer code base and refuses to take necessary and available steps to fix them (either replace the cards with Arcs, or back-port Pilgrim to the older cards, either would be an acceptable solution, 3Com refuses to do either), and now I've heard reports that 3Com tech support folks either don't know about this situation (broken MPIP in NETServers specifically) or don't acknowledge it as a known problem. Yeesh. I answered a post in the totalservice *.totalcontrol newsgroup just the other day telling someone that they were SOL regarding this issue because 3Com refused to stand by their product. These are the types of things that illustrate what I'm talking about...3Com would rather add more beaurocracy and hierarchy to things to try to fix it rather than step back, realize that the beaurocracy and hierarchy is largely what's standing in their way from figuring out what the real fixes are. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456