(usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address. Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address.
Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI
Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri
WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Holly Shit! yes you can :) At 12:46 PM 03/30/2000 -0500, you wrote:
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address.
Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI
Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri
WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
.................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
How many ports on a Patton 2810? I see info at http://www.patton.com about the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address.
Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI
Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri
WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
E1's ain't available in the US. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
How many ports on a Patton 2810? I see info at http://www.patton.com about the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address.
Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI
Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri
WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Obviously. So we're going to get 24 or 23 ports with the patton. And we're comparing that to a 48 port TC. Yeah, it's old, unsupported, but the price isn't REALLY that bad. :) Randy Cosby InfoWest, Inc. 435-674-0165 x11 Fax: 603-462-6427 --- http://www.infowest.com http://www.devshed.com http://www.32bit.com "A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships were built for" - Grace Hopper
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:04 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
E1's ain't available in the US.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
How many ports on a Patton 2810? I see info at http://www.patton.com about the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address.
Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI
Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri
WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
It's old, unsupported, dosen't do mlppp, has routing problems, an underpowered CPU, not enough RAM, slow management card. For the cost of an old, outdate 2059, you can get the same ports (48) for slightly more out of patton. How many ISP's leased 2059's with FMV cause we KNEW they were going to be discontinued... yet resellers are jacking the price up to 4500 on these 486 based RASes? I hate when businesses screw themselved... knowingly. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
Obviously. So we're going to get 24 or 23 ports with the patton. And we're comparing that to a 48 port TC. Yeah, it's old, unsupported, but the price isn't REALLY that bad. :)
Randy Cosby InfoWest, Inc. 435-674-0165 x11 Fax: 603-462-6427 --- http://www.infowest.com http://www.devshed.com http://www.32bit.com
"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships were built for" - Grace Hopper
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:04 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
E1's ain't available in the US.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
How many ports on a Patton 2810? I see info at http://www.patton.com about the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address.
Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI
Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri
WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
First, why are you discussing Patton on this list? Second, I don't respect or purchase from companies that use misdirection in their advertising or market position. The Patton doesn't do 30 or 60 channels, vs 3Coms 'limit' of 48. I don't care what it will do in Europe, and I hate people who use apples and oranges comparisons. Third, there is absolutely no mention of MLPPP, or even more critical to those who are growing, Multi-chassis MLPPP. You certainly won't be able to minimize redundant D channel usage in large aggregations of dialup lines. Fourth, I'm supposed to purchase a mission critical piece of equipment from someone who built modem sharing devices up until last year? Mark Thornton San Marcos Internet, Inc. 512-393-5300 ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Farber <farber@admin.f-tech.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
It's old, unsupported, dosen't do mlppp, has routing problems, an underpowered CPU, not enough RAM, slow management card.
For the cost of an old, outdate 2059, you can get the same ports (48) for slightly more out of patton.
How many ISP's leased 2059's with FMV cause we KNEW they were going to be discontinued... yet resellers are jacking the price up to 4500 on these 486 based RASes?
I hate when businesses screw themselved... knowingly.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
Obviously. So we're going to get 24 or 23 ports with the patton. And we're comparing that to a 48 port TC. Yeah, it's old, unsupported, but the price isn't REALLY that bad. :)
Randy Cosby InfoWest, Inc. 435-674-0165 x11 Fax: 603-462-6427 --- http://www.infowest.com http://www.devshed.com http://www.32bit.com
"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships were built for" - Grace Hopper
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:04 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
E1's ain't available in the US.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
How many ports on a Patton 2810? I see info at http://www.patton.com about the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
In Stock, Tested thru TCM. All Modems flash v90 NMC v90 enabled. Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at your ip address.
Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO Chassis with Dual 45A power Netserver PRI NMC v90 12- Digital Modems Dual PRI
Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power nmc v90 enabled hiper arc 12- Quad analog/digital modems dual pri
WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! .................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear. MLPPP or even Multi chassis MLPPP is still kinda new to the Total Control cards. ISDN connections are even worse than .v90 connections.... a large percentage of ISDN calls will somehow lose routing when MLPPP to a TC. 3Com dropped the dial up market about 1 year ago.... look at the new 'features' they've been incorporating in TC, VoIP, Cellular, etc. When the damned things can reliably take a phone call and route the packets using something other than RIP (yeah, OSPF is in their but from what I read it's not the most reliable beast), THEN add bells and whistles. I've been wanting a pure dial up RAS for a while... nothing as complex as TC for handeling mass marketed dial up access.... looks like Patton listened. And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Mark Thornton wrote:
First, why are you discussing Patton on this list?
Second, I don't respect or purchase from companies that use misdirection in their advertising or market position. The Patton doesn't do 30 or 60 channels, vs 3Coms 'limit' of 48. I don't care what it will do in Europe, and I hate people who use apples and oranges comparisons.
Third, there is absolutely no mention of MLPPP, or even more critical to those who are growing, Multi-chassis MLPPP. You certainly won't be able to minimize redundant D channel usage in large aggregations of dialup lines.
Fourth, I'm supposed to purchase a mission critical piece of equipment from someone who built modem sharing devices up until last year?
Mark Thornton San Marcos Internet, Inc. 512-393-5300
----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Farber <farber@admin.f-tech.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
It's old, unsupported, dosen't do mlppp, has routing problems, an underpowered CPU, not enough RAM, slow management card.
For the cost of an old, outdate 2059, you can get the same ports (48) for slightly more out of patton.
How many ISP's leased 2059's with FMV cause we KNEW they were going to be discontinued... yet resellers are jacking the price up to 4500 on these 486 based RASes?
I hate when businesses screw themselved... knowingly.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
Obviously. So we're going to get 24 or 23 ports with the patton. And we're comparing that to a 48 port TC. Yeah, it's old, unsupported, but the price isn't REALLY that bad. :)
Randy Cosby InfoWest, Inc. 435-674-0165 x11 Fax: 603-462-6427 --- http://www.infowest.com http://www.devshed.com http://www.32bit.com
"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships were built for" - Grace Hopper
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:04 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
E1's ain't available in the US.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
How many ports on a Patton 2810? I see info at http://www.patton.com about the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
> In Stock, Tested thru TCM. > All Modems flash v90 > NMC v90 enabled. > Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital) > USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at > your ip address. > > Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO > Chassis with Dual 45A power > Netserver PRI > NMC v90 > 12- Digital Modems > Dual PRI > > Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO > HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power > nmc v90 enabled > hiper arc > 12- Quad analog/digital modems > dual pri > > WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! > .................................................... > Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. > Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr > Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com > http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net > Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola > Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. >
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I paid $16k each for mine new but that was before they became a mass market product. 8-) They are going for $4k or so all over the place. At 10:16 AM 3/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.
And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW.
Thanks, Greg Coffey <gcoffey@vcn.com> Visionary Communications V 307-234-5443 F 307-234-5446 100 N. Center Suite #100, Casper, WY 82601 www.vcn.com _________________________________________________________ - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Look what I started with a simple post to sell some equipment :) I will work with you on the prices. Nothings ever written stone. You guys continue to look at the product as a commodities rather than a solution. Being on the other side of the table. I see the USR as a cross-platform competitor to the AS5248, PM3, Max 4048.Taking into consideration, The market value of the AS5248 $6500+/-, PM3 $6500+/-, Max4048 $6500+/-. The USR Total Control at $4500+/- is a steal.. I know the machine has it shortcomings but they all do depending on who you are talking to. And another thing to consider is that most of the ISP out there are not complex operations. Many dont even have digital circuits. Just some food for thought. If you are one of the guys who like the USR equipment and are looking for anything, dont be afraid to contact me. I look forward to helping you out :) At 08:31 AM 03/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:
I paid $16k each for mine new but that was before they became a mass market product. 8-)
They are going for $4k or so all over the place.
At 10:16 AM 3/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.
And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW.
Thanks, Greg Coffey <gcoffey@vcn.com> Visionary Communications V 307-234-5443 F 307-234-5446 100 N. Center Suite #100, Casper, WY 82601 www.vcn.com _________________________________________________________
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
.................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com (start message with YOUR email address) http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
I hate wheeling / dealing. You say your price of $4,500 is not set in stone. So if I pay $4,500, either I am a schmuck or you are a crook. Which is it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Rivera" <sales@wrca.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:56 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Look what I started with a simple post to sell some equipment :) I will work with you on the prices. Nothings ever written stone.
You guys continue to look at the product as a commodities rather than a solution. Being on the other side of the table. I see the USR as a cross-platform competitor to the AS5248, PM3, Max 4048.Taking into consideration, The market value of the AS5248 $6500+/-, PM3 $6500+/-, Max4048 $6500+/-. The USR Total Control at $4500+/- is a steal..
I know the machine has it shortcomings but they all do depending on who you are talking to. And another thing to consider is that most of the ISP out there are not complex operations. Many dont even have digital circuits.
Just some food for thought.
If you are one of the guys who like the USR equipment and are looking for anything, dont be afraid to contact me.
I look forward to helping you out :)
At 08:31 AM 03/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:
I paid $16k each for mine new but that was before they became a mass market product. 8-)
They are going for $4k or so all over the place.
At 10:16 AM 3/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.
And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW.
Thanks, Greg Coffey <gcoffey@vcn.com> Visionary Communications V 307-234-5443 F 307-234-5446 100 N. Center Suite #100, Casper, WY 82601 www.vcn.com _________________________________________________________
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
.................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com (start message with YOUR email address) http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
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Welcome to reality. Most people rather wheel and deal to ensure a good purchase price. If it is all written in stone you are better off going to local retail outfit. Good luck finding a total control at Comp USA. At 01:56 PM 03/31/2000 -0600, you wrote:
I hate wheeling / dealing. You say your price of $4,500 is not set in stone. So if I pay $4,500, either I am a schmuck or you are a crook. Which is it?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Rivera" <sales@wrca.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:56 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
Look what I started with a simple post to sell some equipment :) I will work with you on the prices. Nothings ever written stone.
You guys continue to look at the product as a commodities rather than a solution. Being on the other side of the table. I see the USR as a cross-platform competitor to the AS5248, PM3, Max 4048.Taking into consideration, The market value of the AS5248 $6500+/-, PM3 $6500+/-, Max4048 $6500+/-. The USR Total Control at $4500+/- is a steal..
I know the machine has it shortcomings but they all do depending on who you are talking to. And another thing to consider is that most of the ISP out there are not complex operations. Many dont even have digital circuits.
Just some food for thought.
If you are one of the guys who like the USR equipment and are looking for anything, dont be afraid to contact me.
I look forward to helping you out :)
At 08:31 AM 03/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:
I paid $16k each for mine new but that was before they became a mass market product. 8-)
They are going for $4k or so all over the place.
At 10:16 AM 3/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.
And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW.
Thanks, Greg Coffey <gcoffey@vcn.com> Visionary Communications V 307-234-5443 F 307-234-5446 100 N. Center Suite #100, Casper, WY 82601 www.vcn.com _________________________________________________________
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
.................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com (start message with YOUR email address) http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
.................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com (start message with YOUR email address) http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Not argueing the VALUE of these boxes... just amazed at the PRICE. Historically, USR/3Com gets TOP dollar for their stuff. A sportster is still $130.. a 3c509 is still $100. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote:
Look what I started with a simple post to sell some equipment :) I will work with you on the prices. Nothings ever written stone.
You guys continue to look at the product as a commodities rather than a solution. Being on the other side of the table. I see the USR as a cross-platform competitor to the AS5248, PM3, Max 4048.Taking into consideration, The market value of the AS5248 $6500+/-, PM3 $6500+/-, Max4048 $6500+/-. The USR Total Control at $4500+/- is a steal..
I know the machine has it shortcomings but they all do depending on who you are talking to. And another thing to consider is that most of the ISP out there are not complex operations. Many dont even have digital circuits.
Just some food for thought.
If you are one of the guys who like the USR equipment and are looking for anything, dont be afraid to contact me.
I look forward to helping you out :)
At 08:31 AM 03/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:
I paid $16k each for mine new but that was before they became a mass market product. 8-)
They are going for $4k or so all over the place.
At 10:16 AM 3/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.
And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW.
Thanks, Greg Coffey <gcoffey@vcn.com> Visionary Communications V 307-234-5443 F 307-234-5446 100 N. Center Suite #100, Casper, WY 82601 www.vcn.com _________________________________________________________
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
.................................................... Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com (start message with YOUR email address) http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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Thus spake Paul Farber
My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.
Personally...I wouldn't pay a dime for NETServer gear at this point...*shrug*
MLPPP or even Multi chassis MLPPP is still kinda new to the Total Control cards.
Actually...the TC gear has done MP for quite some time now. MPIP has been solid on the Arcs for quite some time now as well. MP on the NETServers worked fine...MPIP, however, *never* worked on the NETServers.
ISDN connections are even worse than .v90 connections.... a large percentage of ISDN calls will somehow lose routing when MLPPP to a TC.
Hrmm...I've never had any trouble with this on Arcs.
3Com dropped the dial up market about 1 year ago.... look at the new 'features' they've been incorporating in TC, VoIP, Cellular, etc.
Yeah...I don't have any great desire for VoIP and Cellular capabilities...but can see where some would.
When the damned things can reliably take a phone call
Agreed...though this is a DSP thing...yes, the DSP code still needs to be made more reliable...5% connect failure seems to be the going rate...that's high...though some of the blame is with crap client side modems.
and route the packets using something other than RIP (yeah, OSPF is in their but from what I read it's not the most reliable beast), THEN add bells and whistles.
true, true. OSPF needs to have its feature set filled out more. Other routing protocols should be added. BGP would be one that I'd like to see actually...though that would be a lower priority. I definitely agree with you here...get the basic functionality down and *SOLID* before moving development assets elsewhere.
I've been wanting a pure dial up RAS for a while... nothing as complex as TC for handeling mass marketed dial up access.... looks like Patton listened.
Yeah...the problem there, being...there's really not much market anymore for a *pure* dial up RAS. Besides...a RAS really is a router...and to build a good RAS, you're really building a good router with extra features. (a RAS is a router, but a router isn't necessarily a RAS) Agreed, you can still make a good router/RAS that's not as complex/complicated as the TC...but then again...the TC is a very flexible and powerful RAS...I can see the need for something simpler in places.
And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW.
Considering that NETServers are inherently broken in several ways, I tend to be of the opinion that anyone selling one for anything other very limited solutions is pretty much committing fraud. But then...that's just my $.02. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
and route the packets using something other than RIP (yeah, OSPF is in their but from what I read it's not the most reliable beast), THEN add bells and whistles.
true, true. OSPF needs to have its feature set filled out more. Other routing protocols should be added. BGP would be one that I'd like to see actually...though that would be a lower priority. I definitely agree with you here...get the basic functionality down and *SOLID* before moving development assets elsewhere.
In all fairness, just about every vendors OSPF is broke to an extent................I have seen problems with OSPF on just about every platform.........and yes that includes Cisco. One of the main reasons large networks use IS-IS instead of OSPF on Cisco, is because IS-IS just works..........OSPF has always had its problems on Cisco though
-- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K. Christ, they were only $10K NEW.
Unfortunatly, bells and whistles is what fuels the market. Big places want to see those features (telcos, etc) so you have to be working on them to stay competitive, or else you blink, and your behind. FWIW, Netserver chassis were $30k+..................they only dropped to $10k after being out for a while, and towards the end.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Mark Thornton wrote:
First, why are you discussing Patton on this list?
Second, I don't respect or purchase from companies that use misdirection in their advertising or market position. The Patton doesn't do 30 or 60 channels, vs 3Coms 'limit' of 48. I don't care what it will do in Europe, and I hate people who use apples and oranges comparisons.
Third, there is absolutely no mention of MLPPP, or even more critical to those who are growing, Multi-chassis MLPPP. You certainly won't be able to minimize redundant D channel usage in large aggregations of dialup lines.
Fourth, I'm supposed to purchase a mission critical piece of equipment from someone who built modem sharing devices up until last year?
Mark Thornton San Marcos Internet, Inc. 512-393-5300
----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Farber <farber@admin.f-tech.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
It's old, unsupported, dosen't do mlppp, has routing problems, an underpowered CPU, not enough RAM, slow management card.
For the cost of an old, outdate 2059, you can get the same ports (48) for slightly more out of patton.
How many ISP's leased 2059's with FMV cause we KNEW they were going to be discontinued... yet resellers are jacking the price up to 4500 on these 486 based RASes?
I hate when businesses screw themselved... knowingly.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
Obviously. So we're going to get 24 or 23 ports with the patton. And we're comparing that to a 48 port TC. Yeah, it's old, unsupported, but the price isn't REALLY that bad. :)
Randy Cosby InfoWest, Inc. 435-674-0165 x11 Fax: 603-462-6427 --- http://www.infowest.com http://www.devshed.com http://www.32bit.com
"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships were built for" - Grace Hopper
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:04 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
E1's ain't available in the US.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Randy Cosby wrote:
How many ports on a Patton 2810? I see info at http://www.patton.com about the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).
> -----Original Message----- > From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Farber > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM > To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90 > > > Holly shit! I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle > for $4500! Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW. > > Paul Farber > Farber Technology > farber@admin.f-tech.net > Ph 570-628-5303 > Fax 570-628-5545 > > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Rivera wrote: > > > In Stock, Tested thru TCM. > > All Modems flash v90 > > NMC v90 enabled. > > Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, > analog/digital) > > USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at > > your ip address. > > > > Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO > > Chassis with Dual 45A power > > Netserver PRI > > NMC v90 > > 12- Digital Modems > > Dual PRI > > > > Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO > > HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power > > nmc v90 enabled > > hiper arc > > 12- Quad analog/digital modems > > dual pri > > > > WTB: Hiper DSP's!!! > > .................................................... > > Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981. > > Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 / 732-433-5890 24Hr > > Email Page 7324335890@page.nextel.com > > http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com or http://www.wrca.net > > Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola > > Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > > with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. > > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. > > > > > - > To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. >
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
participants (8)
-
Brian -
Greg Coffey -
Jeff Mcadams -
John Schmerold -
Mark Thornton -
Paul Farber -
Randy Cosby -
Steve Rivera