Another thing that I noticed, and is probably somewhat at the root of the problem here is that this list seems to be mostly ISPs. Not corporate IT departments. One thing that 3Com does not understand that Cisco caught onto long ago is the difference between those two types of customers. The IT guys will buy whatever they are told to secure their jobs (support, sparing, training, whatever else...). The ISP guys are looking for the best buy. I don't know if 3Com still sends sales reps out to drum up ISP biz, but Cisco does... regularly. And they have a specific group of people that aren't surprised by the lower budget, higher clue, and "creative" means of making things work on a shoestring. They don't even bat an eye, they've seen it all before. And if you pull the Sales Engineer aside and ask him if you can get one software contract to cover what you're buying plus 5 more boxes you just got off Ebay, well, he'll tell you no one's really going to care. wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean? :) And your sales engineer is a good backdoor if you have a problem and don't have a support contract. Especially if you're handing them a bug on a platter. I'm basically saying Cisco knows the customer better, and they make adjustments to keep the customer happy. They still get their money where they can on the Enterprise side, but they let the ISP guys play it a bit loose. I'm not necessarily bashing here, that's just how I see it. 3Com reluctantly deals with ISPs, Cisco embraces them (any revenue is good revenue!). And yes, the platform is basically good, especially when you're buying used. Charles -- Charles Sprickman spork@inch.com On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Stephen Rivera wrote:
You makes some great points here and I completely agree. And I applaud your business decision to take the proper measure to get the support you needed. I just wish I could have sold you that support contract :)
I think if we can continue to discuss the problems in a professional matter, (rather than bitching about it) maybe, and this is a long shot that we might be able to make changes.Threats to buy Cisco is not going to get anything accomplished. Commworks is not a routing company, they are an access company, they dont claim to be Cisco. I personally feel that the comparison of the 2 is like comparing apples to oranges.
We all agree for the most part that hardware does the job we expect it to do but the support is not what we would expect from a company that has such a large install base.
So what do we do from here?
PS: You mention the 3com police and I too have had my problems with the authorities :) Thats why I am here at 3com getting training. I have been denied the the ability to buy from source-t, netsource and the other affiliates that service commworks contracts and if thats not fair I dont know what is. Competing with these guys is nearly impossible on new product, so thats why push the refurb product. Is that fair? I think not and I am sure I can supply the same service. But I dont complain about it. Instead I too am taking the proper procedures to get on the same playing field. Will I get there? Who knows but I will continue to try.
Thanks for not biting my head off and I defintely see your points.
Steve (and everyone) -
I'm not the arguing type - and I don't necessarily mean to "bash" 3com, which is why I haven't said anything to this point. Just making discussion here.
BUT - here's the reality - from what I've seen, the 3Com people are here, but don't care to participate. I believe it's not their job to help, but then why are they here? Apparently it is actually the job of the 3Com police to make sure that although we are allowed to discuss, they have to make sure we don't get out of line.
I've been on several mailing lists where the participants discussed issues of much greater legal consequence than a simple piece of firmware. There were no spies monitoring the discussion to keep everyone in line. Which is why I was a little disappointed in some things that occurred recently.
One simple request for an old firmware version results in Mr. Goodman posting the entire 3Com software license. Then, I get a phone call from someone selling support contracts who says they were referred to me by 3Com (which I purchased by the way). That's followed a couple days later by a phone call from 3Com's Corporate Security Department calling to protect 3Com's "Intellectual Property". I hope he fealt like a shit when I told him I already purchased a service contract.
Since firmware, old or new, is sometimes required to make their hardware work like it was intended, I see it quite different than I do software, such as TCM. I know, I know, 3Com would argue with that - I'm just saying that I disagree. Remember - I did pay for the support so I could get the firmware, but I'm just stating my opinion, which is quite different from being unwilling to abide. If I had any intention of not "following the rules" I would have been smart enough to keep my posts here anonymous.
And since any effort to improve the functionality of the 3Com hardware requires a service contract, where does it end? What if someone decides that it is "Intellectual Property" to know how to configure a unit for DOV calls? The 3Com police will be watching to make sure no one talks about it without paying the fee.
In fairness, I bought 3Com hardware because my previous experience (with modems, nic's, switches, etc) has all been very good. And I'm keeping my 3Com hardware, which is why I bought the support. But COME ON - I understand how people feel when they buy what they think is good hardware, only to find something doesn't work and they have to spend a ton of additional cash for what probably amounts to 5 minutes of help.
Here's another way to look at this: If most manufacturer's sell defective goods, they are normally, and sometimes legally, expected to fix what's wrong. Virtually every software publisher puts out free patches and bug-fixes when issues are found in their software, whether it's a $40 package, or a $40,000 package. When 3Com sells a modem that doesn't work right because the drivers are buggy, they provide free driver updates via the web site. But when Total Control hardware is found to be defective (due to bugs in firmware) they only fix them if you pay an additional fee. Why doesn't that sound right?
Basically, I think there are probably several people (here and elsewhere) who feel a little duped. Expecting top-quality hardware that 3Com is known for, we buy in, expecting the same kind of support offered by other manufacturers, including 3Com in regards to other 3Com hardware. Then, when something doesn't work exactly right, they find out they are held hostage by 3Com's policies in regards to Total Control related software or firmware. You can argue against the Cisco argument by saying their practice isn't their policy, but if a lack of enforcement is the way they do business, then that's their policy, written or not.
So what's my point? My point is that I found that 3Com's "Intellectual Property" is freely available in the public domain, and I certainly could have obtained almost anything I wanted without buying the service contract or paying anyone anything. I only did so because I, personally, want to do this right. But the 3Com people out there that are reading this list should be aware that monitoring a discussion like this is the biggest waste of effort one could imagine. I think someone else said it, but I'll repeat, they would be wiser to put the effort into developing a better product than policing a small number of people and thinking it's making a difference.
Again, just my opinion. Thanks to everyone who offered to freely help out with my problems.
Joel
FYI: Another thing to consider as I talk to the guys at 3com is... As much as we would like to see responses from 3com techs on this list its just not their job. 3com techs are available at the commworks user forum. Many of the responses that come from the 3com employees are done on their own time and we should appreciate that...So be easy on them. As I have been informed thats why they havent been adding in on your tech questions. They dont appreciate the email beatings they take for 3com...They are employees not owners or decision makers for the items that are complained about on this list. So lets keep that in mind when they do take the time to help us out.
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