What they fail to mention is that 12 years ago the UN determined that Saddam's regime broke international law by attacking Kuwait. As a result, he and his government lost the rights that that other countries have with regard to military weapons by way of UN resolution 687. So, much like any other criminal he was lucky to retain even partial rights in society. It also states that if Iraq failed to comply with disarmament (which it did) military force can be used. http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/resolutions/res687.pdf Over the course of those 12 years Saddam has continued to break international law by failing to work with UN inspectors and disarm. As a result he stacked up even more resolutions. I found almost 20. Maybe there are more. http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/resolutions2.html I don't totally agree that the US should have moved forward with the attack without a majority vote of the UN, but I definitely don't buy into any of the arguments in Saddam's favor. He's had 12 years. Who gets that many chances with regard to anything in life? I really don't think there would be so many people protesting this war if they knew all the facts. Don "There is no greater joy than soaring high on the wings of your dreams, except maybe the joy of watching a dreamer who has nowhere to land but in the ocean of reality." DONALD D GAGEN MAILTO:DGAGEN@ENSEMBLESTUDIOS.COM ENSEMBLE STUDIOS http://www.ensemblestudios.com -----Original Message----- From: Ben May [mailto:hal8999_@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:00 PM To: orb@mailman.xmission.com Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR Just for a little international perspective: http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/mar/25inter.htm And a viewer comment posted on the Al Jazeera website (kudos to my girlfriend for finding and translating this for me): Sometimes, late at night, I wonder if the USA has set themselves upon a path that will lead, in 20, 30, or 50 years to a 'coalition of the willing' advancing through New Orleans on the way to Washington, to arrest the leader of another 'rogue state', where he sits in a place called the oval office. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb
On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 14:50, Don Gagen wrote:
I don't totally agree that the US should have moved forward with the attack without a majority vote of the UN, but I definitely don't buy into any of the arguments in Saddam's favor. He's had 12 years. Who gets that many chances with regard to anything in life? I really don't think there would be so many people protesting this war if they knew all the facts.
There's this massive mental projection that we're all subject to through the media that Iraq and Saddam are the same thing. Much like Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden were the same thing. But bombs fell on the people Afghanistan and not on Osama. And right now bombs are falling on the 24+ million people of Iraq. I don't think nearly as many people would be all gung-ho for war if CNN would show what happens _after_ one of those pretty fireballs lights up the night sky over Bagdhad or Basra. And I think those who would still press ahead at any cost would be revealed as callous and inhumane, and hopefully ignored by the rest of the human race. This is what "Iraqi Freedom" looks like. http://news.lycos.com/news/photo.asp?section=BreakingPhotos&photoId=293509 http://electronicIraq.net/news/394.shtml I'll also point out that it's been more than 30 years since Israel was requested to leave the occupied territories under U.N. resolution 242, and that no one nation has defied the U.N. more frequently than Israel. The disarmament pretext failed to convince most of the world. Hopefully the citizens of the U.S. will wake from their trance and pressure their government to end this now. Peace. Mick
RE: [Orb] off topic WARisrael is in violation of more UN resolutions that iraq is, yet the usa keeps giving it money to buy more arms to kill palestinians. quite a paradox eh? Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Gagen To: 'What were the skies like when you were young?' Cc: 'hal8999_@hotmail.com' Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 20:50 Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR What they fail to mention is that 12 years ago the UN determined that Saddam's regime broke international law by attacking Kuwait. As a result, he and his government lost the rights that that other countries have with regard to military weapons by way of UN resolution 687. So, much like any other criminal he was lucky to retain even partial rights in society. It also states that if Iraq failed to comply with disarmament (which it did) military force can be used. http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/resolutions/res687.pdf Over the course of those 12 years Saddam has continued to break international law by failing to work with UN inspectors and disarm. As a result he stacked up even more resolutions. I found almost 20. Maybe there are more. http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/resolutions2.html I don't totally agree that the US should have moved forward with the attack without a majority vote of the UN, but I definitely don't buy into any of the arguments in Saddam's favor. He's had 12 years. Who gets that many chances with regard to anything in life? I really don't think there would be so many people protesting this war if they knew all the facts. Don "There is no greater joy than soaring high on the wings of your dreams, except maybe the joy of watching a dreamer who has nowhere to land but in the ocean of reality." DONALD D GAGEN MAILTO:DGAGEN@ENSEMBLESTUDIOS.COM ENSEMBLE STUDIOS http://www.ensemblestudios.com -----Original Message----- From: Ben May [mailto:hal8999_@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:00 PM To: orb@mailman.xmission.com Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR Just for a little international perspective: http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/mar/25inter.htm And a viewer comment posted on the Al Jazeera website (kudos to my girlfriend for finding and translating this for me): Sometimes, late at night, I wonder if the USA has set themselves upon a path that will lead, in 20, 30, or 50 years to a 'coalition of the willing' advancing through New Orleans on the way to Washington, to arrest the leader of another 'rogue state', where he sits in a place called the oval office. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb
RE: [Orb] off topic WARAre you truly living in a wonderland? This war has been waged under several banners including the need to rid the world of terrorism. Or was it regime change???? Or was it??? The true reason is economics and megalomania. Hopefully this article will enlighten individuals who are under the assumption that they understand the motivation for this war. http://truthout.org/docs_03/022803A.shtml Also, if anyone actually wants the report , "Rebuilding America's Defense", email me. ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Gagen To: 'What were the skies like when you were young?' Cc: 'hal8999_@hotmail.com' Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 2:50 PM Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR What they fail to mention is that 12 years ago the UN determined that Saddam's regime broke international law by attacking Kuwait. As a result, he and his government lost the rights that that other countries have with regard to military weapons by way of UN resolution 687. So, much like any other criminal he was lucky to retain even partial rights in society. It also states that if Iraq failed to comply with disarmament (which it did) military force can be used. http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/resolutions/res687.pdf Over the course of those 12 years Saddam has continued to break international law by failing to work with UN inspectors and disarm. As a result he stacked up even more resolutions. I found almost 20. Maybe there are more. http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/resolutions2.html I don't totally agree that the US should have moved forward with the attack without a majority vote of the UN, but I definitely don't buy into any of the arguments in Saddam's favor. He's had 12 years. Who gets that many chances with regard to anything in life? I really don't think there would be so many people protesting this war if they knew all the facts. Don "There is no greater joy than soaring high on the wings of your dreams, except maybe the joy of watching a dreamer who has nowhere to land but in the ocean of reality." DONALD D GAGEN MAILTO:DGAGEN@ENSEMBLESTUDIOS.COM ENSEMBLE STUDIOS http://www.ensemblestudios.com -----Original Message----- From: Ben May [mailto:hal8999_@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:00 PM To: orb@mailman.xmission.com Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR Just for a little international perspective: http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/mar/25inter.htm And a viewer comment posted on the Al Jazeera website (kudos to my girlfriend for finding and translating this for me): Sometimes, late at night, I wonder if the USA has set themselves upon a path that will lead, in 20, 30, or 50 years to a 'coalition of the willing' advancing through New Orleans on the way to Washington, to arrest the leader of another 'rogue state', where he sits in a place called the oval office. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb
"Are you truly living in a wonderland? This war has been waged under several banners including the need to rid the world of terrorism. Or was it regime change???? Or was it??? The true reason is economics and megalomania." You said it, ECONOMICS. Check this out, Halliburton, the company that Dick Cheney was CEO of until 2000, has been awarded a contract worth close to 1 BILLION dollars to put out fires in Iraq. Additionally, in December 2001, Halliburton was awarded a 10-year contract from the Pentagon for work to be done in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Jordan, and other countries. While Cheney had to divest his stock in the company after being appointed Vice President of the USA, he *still* receives 1 MILLION goddam dollars per year in compensation from them. Compensation for what? http://www.fool.com/News/mft/2003/mft03032502.htm
Sound pissed u don't get the money yourself? RMStringer ************************** "Rationalization is giving a socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable behavior, and socially unacceptable behavior is a form of insanity". BB - Pg 550 -----Original Message----- From: orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of kim Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 8:50 PM To: What were the skies like when you were young? Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR "Are you truly living in a wonderland? This war has been waged under several banners including the need to rid the world of terrorism. Or was it regime change???? Or was it??? The true reason is economics and megalomania." You said it, ECONOMICS. Check this out, Halliburton, the company that Dick Cheney was CEO of until 2000, has been awarded a contract worth close to 1 BILLION dollars to put out fires in Iraq. Additionally, in December 2001, Halliburton was awarded a 10-year contract from the Pentagon for work to be done in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Jordan, and other countries. While Cheney had to divest his stock in the company after being appointed Vice President of the USA, he *still* receives 1 MILLION goddam dollars per year in compensation from them. Compensation for what? http://www.fool.com/News/mft/2003/mft03032502.htm _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb
I'm pissed that this war is so driven by money and megalomania and not by any regard for human life (regardless of what they say). I'm kind of funny that way. -----Original Message----- From: orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of RMStringer Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:51 PM To: What were the skies like when you were young? Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR Sound pissed u don't get the money yourself? RMStringer
Like they are so humanitarian!! Dress up as civilians and then shoot under the flag of truce!!! FUCK THEM!!!!!!!!! They should have done the job right the 1st time! Any one, who uses Terror tactics on his own people, should be dismantled! They gave the man 12 fucking years to Comply, if he is that stupid, TAKE HIM OUT!!! WE are the only ones, with the British, who have the Fucking Balls to clean up the likes of him and the other Terror advocates in the world. In my opinion, Korea should be next! I don't know where u live, but I like to keep my country safe from the likes of manicial trash in 3rd world countries wanting to mame and destroy the American dream. U see what he did and do to their own people, just see what they would like to do to the US citizens if they could. IF the 9-11 attacks did not outrage you, Shame, Shame. It was on our soil. I can only imagine what is has been like for people in Paris or London or other countries for the past 20-30 yrs with the bombings and attacks that hey have had to endure from terrorist trash!! We have been fortunate in the US, by God's grace. Fuck my once, shame on you. Fuck me twice, shame on me. I for one and glad that Bush has the ball to do what he is doing on terror. He is trying to make the world a little safer, I don't know about you. If you don't like what he is doing, that is your opinion, but in the end, it will benefit us all. RMStringer ************************** "Rationalization is giving a socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable behavior, and socially unacceptable behavior is a form of insanity". BB - Pg 550 -----Original Message----- From: orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of kim Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:27 AM To: What were the skies like when you were young? Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR I'm pissed that this war is so driven by money and megalomania and not by any regard for human life (regardless of what they say). I'm kind of funny that way. -----Original Message----- From: orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of RMStringer Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:51 PM To: What were the skies like when you were young? Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR Sound pissed u don't get the money yourself? RMStringer _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb
North Korea? Are you mad? The US knew that Iraq had for the most part a poorly trained and widespread army, with no long-range weapons. Any war with Iraq would be kept local to the region (barring any overseas terrorism). North Korea, on the other hand, has a huge well-trained and well-equipped army AND nuclear ICBMs. Any attack on North Korea would not remain local to North Korea. In fact, it would probably start a new cold war. Or worse. Let's not go there, Iraq is bad enough.
Like they are so humanitarian!! Dress up as civilians and then shoot under the flag of truce!!! FUCK THEM!!!!!!!!! They should have done the job right the 1st time! Any one, who uses Terror tactics on his own people, should be dismantled! They gave the man 12 fucking years to Comply, if he is that stupid, TAKE HIM OUT!!! WE are the only ones, with the British, who have the Fucking Balls to clean up the likes of him and the other Terror advocates in the world. In my opinion, Korea should be next! I don't know where u live, but I like to keep my country safe from the likes of manicial trash in 3rd world countries wanting to mame and destroy the American dream.
North Korea? Are you mad?
No just taking advantage while big daddy is busy somewhere else. See Cuba! Castro had dissidents arrested last week,what timing huh! See Peru circa WW II! Stealing half of Ecuador while big daddy and the rest of the world was busy in the European and Pacific theatres. Look at pre WW II maps and Ecuador is almost twice the size it is today. fvll
Of course the 9/11 attacks outraged me, but it's fucking criminal to seek revenge and punish the wrong people and let the real killers get away. You do realize that the people who drove the planes into the buildings were from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq, don't you? And al Queda and Iraq aren't exactly best of friends. But hey, that's classic old west (and modern Texan) justice. When the posse can't find the real killer, they hang whoever fits the bill best. There is no doubt Saddam is evil - I know of no one that disputes that. But to say that the US is bombing Iraq to save the people is plain wrong. Why do we supposedly care about them but not about the millions of people in other countries that are getting their asses kicked by genocidal maniacs? Maybe, just maybe, its because none of the other countries have the natural resources that we find so desirable. There's little doubt Bush believes he's making the world safer, but in reality he's managed to piss off nearly every country and their people. His actions are quickly turning this into a religious war, which is exactly what al Queda wanted to happen. This could very well be our generations Vietnam. And if we bomb North Korea as you suggest, this will certainly be our WWIII. -----Original Message----- From: orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of RMStringer Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:11 AM To: What were the skies like when you were young? Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR Like they are so humanitarian!! Dress up as civilians and then shoot under the flag of truce!!! FUCK THEM!!!!!!!!! They should have done the job right the 1st time! Any one, who uses Terror tactics on his own people, should be dismantled! They gave the man 12 fucking years to Comply, if he is that stupid, TAKE HIM OUT!!! WE are the only ones, with the British, who have the Fucking Balls to clean up the likes of him and the other Terror advocates in the world. In my opinion, Korea should be next! I don't know where u live, but I like to keep my country safe from the likes of manicial trash in 3rd world countries wanting to mame and destroy the American dream. U see what he did and do to their own people, just see what they would like to do to the US citizens if they could. IF the 9-11 attacks did not outrage you, Shame, Shame. It was on our soil. I can only imagine what is has been like for people in Paris or London or other countries for the past 20-30 yrs with the bombings and attacks that hey have had to endure from terrorist trash!! We have been fortunate in the US, by God's grace. Fuck my once, shame on you. Fuck me twice, shame on me. I for one and glad that Bush has the ball to do what he is doing on terror. He is trying to make the world a little safer, I don't know about you. If you don't like what he is doing, that is your opinion, but in the end, it will benefit us all. RMStringer ************************** "Rationalization is giving a socially acceptable reason for socially unacceptable behavior, and socially unacceptable behavior is a form of insanity". BB - Pg 550 -----Original Message----- From: orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of kim Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:27 AM To: What were the skies like when you were young? Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR I'm pissed that this war is so driven by money and megalomania and not by any regard for human life (regardless of what they say). I'm kind of funny that way. -----Original Message----- From: orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:orb-bounces@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of RMStringer Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:51 PM To: What were the skies like when you were young? Subject: RE: [Orb] off topic WAR Sound pissed u don't get the money yourself? RMStringer _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb
participants (8)
-
Ben Turner -
Don Gagen -
Edward Halley -
james.drysdale＠utoronto.ca -
Kevin Smith -
kim -
Mick Szucs -
RMStringer